Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

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Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

Paul Licameli
I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:

Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.  (But I may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more consistently with the toolbar buttons.)

But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it can also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap line in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.

So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must hit Esc twice.

Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.

I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding the recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.

There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to cancel) that might need update.

Any complaints?

PRL



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Re: Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

Stevethefiddle
On 16 July 2017 at 02:07, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:
>
> Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.  (But I
> may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more
> consistently with the toolbar buttons.)
>
> But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in
> 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it can
> also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap line
> in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.
>
> So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must hit
> Esc twice.
>
> Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does
> anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.
>
> I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding the
> recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or
> hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.
>
> There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless
> perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to
> cancel) that might need update.
>
> Any complaints?

I was dubious about this from the written description, but from
initial practical tests it seems to work rather well.

Steve

>
> PRL
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> audacity-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

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Re: Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

Peter Sampson-2
Is Esc the best modifier key for this purpose.

I would have thought that Alt would have been much better.

The user is not really escaping from anything with this - rather thay are
switching to an alternative mode for the tool at that postion (in this case
the split line).

Peter

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 July 2017 at 02:07, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:
>
> Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.  (But I
> may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more
> consistently with the toolbar buttons.)
>
> But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in
> 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it can
> also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap line
> in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.
>
> So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must hit
> Esc twice.
>
> Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does
> anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.
>
> I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding the
> recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or
> hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.
>
> There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless
> perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to
> cancel) that might need update.
>
> Any complaints?

I was dubious about this from the written description, but from
initial practical tests it seems to work rather well.

Steve

>
> PRL
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

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Re: Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

Stevethefiddle
On 17 July 2017 at 10:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is Esc the best modifier key for this purpose.
>
> I would have thought that Alt would have been much better.
>
> The user is not really escaping from anything with this

It could be argued that they are escaping from the default behaviour.
It's not really a "mode change" because it's not persistent, and it's
not really a "modified action" like "Shift + Click" because the ESC
key is only pressed, not held down.
As I wrote previously, I wasn't keen on the idea 'on paper', but it
seems to work pretty well in practice.

Steve

> - rather thay are
> switching to an alternative mode for the tool at that postion (in this case
> the split line).
>
> Peter
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 July 2017 at 02:07, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:
>> >
>> > Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.
>> > (But I
>> > may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more
>> > consistently with the toolbar buttons.)
>> >
>> > But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in
>> > 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it
>> > can
>> > also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap
>> > line
>> > in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.
>> >
>> > So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must
>> > hit
>> > Esc twice.
>> >
>> > Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does
>> > anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.
>> >
>> > I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding
>> > the
>> > recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or
>> > hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.
>> >
>> > There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless
>> > perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to
>> > cancel) that might need update.
>> >
>> > Any complaints?
>>
>> I was dubious about this from the written description, but from
>> initial practical tests it seems to work rather well.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>
>
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

Paul Licameli


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 10:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is Esc the best modifier key for this purpose.
>
> I would have thought that Alt would have been much better.

Making Alt do things at key-down seems unconventional to me.  (I don't count things that are un-done at key-up.  Such as teh cursor change from pencil to spray can in Draw tool).

But maybe someone knowns an exception among other programs.
 
>
> The user is not really escaping from anything with this

It could be argued that they are escaping from the default behaviour.
It's not really a "mode change" because it's not persistent, and it's
not really a "modified action" like "Shift + Click" because the ESC
key is only pressed, not held down.
As I wrote previously, I wasn't keen on the idea 'on paper', but it
seems to work pretty well in practice.

Steve

I wanted some key.  Tab wasn't accepted.  I have done Esc.  I say it stands.

(Shift+) Tab, or maybe the mouse wheel, makes sense for going (backwards or) forwards through a cycle of states.

Esc makes sense as "popping a stack" in one direction only.  Usually a shallow stack of only two states -- as, you have a modal dialog, then Esc, and then it's out of your way.

The "stacks" of states here may be deeper, but I think it makes similar sense.  You have a background cursor applying at most mouse positions.  A yellow snap gets in your face at a small number of x coordinates, and Esc takes it out of your way and makes that x behave like most other x.

The more special split line cursor is the doubly special case -- it's for an even smaller subset of positions, for only certain y at that x.  (Because you might have another track, and the same x but y in that track, would make the snap line and not the split line cursor.)

When samples and envelope points compete for your cursor in the multi-tool, that makes less sense as a "stack" and might make more sense as a cycle, but leave that be.

PRL
 

> - rather thay are
> switching to an alternative mode for the tool at that postion (in this case
> the split line).
>
> Peter
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 July 2017 at 02:07, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:
>> >
>> > Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.
>> > (But I
>> > may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more
>> > consistently with the toolbar buttons.)
>> >
>> > But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in
>> > 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it
>> > can
>> > also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap
>> > line
>> > in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.
>> >
>> > So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must
>> > hit
>> > Esc twice.
>> >
>> > Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does
>> > anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.
>> >
>> > I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding
>> > the
>> > recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or
>> > hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.
>> >
>> > There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless
>> > perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to
>> > cancel) that might need update.
>> >
>> > Any complaints?
>>
>> I was dubious about this from the written description, but from
>> initial practical tests it seems to work rather well.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 10:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is Esc the best modifier key for this purpose.
>
> I would have thought that Alt would have been much better.
>
> The user is not really escaping from anything with this

It could be argued that they are escaping from the default behaviour.
It's not really a "mode change" because it's not persistent, and it's
not really a "modified action" like "Shift + Click" because the ESC
key is only pressed, not held down.

OK you've convinced me - Esc it is then ;-))
 
As I wrote previously, I wasn't keen on the idea 'on paper', but it
seems to work pretty well in practice.

And as you are a long-time user of clips I'm glad to hear that.

I agree that it looks to work better in practice - than it appeared on "paper",

Peter.

 

Steve

> - rather thay are
> switching to an alternative mode for the tool at that postion (in this case
> the split line).
>
> Peter
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 July 2017 at 02:07, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:
>> >
>> > Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.
>> > (But I
>> > may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more
>> > consistently with the toolbar buttons.)
>> >
>> > But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in
>> > 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it
>> > can
>> > also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap
>> > line
>> > in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.
>> >
>> > So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must
>> > hit
>> > Esc twice.
>> >
>> > Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does
>> > anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.
>> >
>> > I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding
>> > the
>> > recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or
>> > hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.
>> >
>> > There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless
>> > perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to
>> > cancel) that might need update.
>> >
>> > Any complaints?
>>
>> I was dubious about this from the written description, but from
>> initial practical tests it seems to work rather well.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 10:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is Esc the best modifier key for this purpose.
>
> I would have thought that Alt would have been much better.

Making Alt do things at key-down seems unconventional to me.  (I don't count things that are un-done at key-up.  Such as teh cursor change from pencil to spray can in Draw tool).

But maybe someone knowns an exception among other programs.
 
>
> The user is not really escaping from anything with this

It could be argued that they are escaping from the default behaviour.
It's not really a "mode change" because it's not persistent, and it's
not really a "modified action" like "Shift + Click" because the ESC
key is only pressed, not held down.
As I wrote previously, I wasn't keen on the idea 'on paper', but it
seems to work pretty well in practice.

Steve

I wanted some key.  Tab wasn't accepted.  I have done Esc.  I say it stands.

We just cross-posted Paul - Steve already convinced me ;-))
 

(Shift+) Tab, or maybe the mouse wheel, makes sense for going (backwards or) forwards through a cycle of states.

Esc makes sense as "popping a stack" in one direction only.  Usually a shallow stack of only two states -- as, you have a modal dialog, then Esc, and then it's out of your way.

The "stacks" of states here may be deeper, but I think it makes similar sense.  You have a background cursor applying at most mouse positions.  A yellow snap gets in your face at a small number of x coordinates, and Esc takes it out of your way and makes that x behave like most other x.

The more special split line cursor is the doubly special case -- it's for an even smaller subset of positions, for only certain y at that x.  (Because you might have another track, and the same x but y in that track, would make the snap line and not the split line cursor.)

When samples and envelope points compete for your cursor in the multi-tool, that makes less sense as a "stack" and might make more sense as a cycle, but leave that be.

PRL
 

> - rather thay are
> switching to an alternative mode for the tool at that postion (in this case
> the split line).
>
> Peter
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 July 2017 at 02:07, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:
>> >
>> > Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.
>> > (But I
>> > may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more
>> > consistently with the toolbar buttons.)
>> >
>> > But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in
>> > 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it
>> > can
>> > also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap
>> > line
>> > in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.
>> >
>> > So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must
>> > hit
>> > Esc twice.
>> >
>> > Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does
>> > anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.
>> >
>> > I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding
>> > the
>> > recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or
>> > hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.
>> >
>> > There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless
>> > perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to
>> > cancel) that might need update.
>> >
>> > Any complaints?
>>
>> I was dubious about this from the written description, but from
>> initial practical tests it seems to work rather well.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Bye bye tab and tooltips, hello Esc key and status

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 July 2017 at 02:07, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have done it as of 5644bed8bd6c4d11d12b1b8633f30009ab14555e:
>
> Reverted the new tab key action, reverted the track panel tooltips.  (But I
> may bring back some tooltips, just to make the TCP buttons act more
> consistently with the toolbar buttons.)
>
> But implemented more Esc key actions.  Esc used to cancel some drags in
> 2.1.3; in 2.2.0, for some time now, it had cancelled all drags.  Now, it can
> also change the hit target before click, and escape from a yellow snap line
> in selection tool, at either the beginning or end of drag.
>
> So to escape completely from a drag that snaps the endpoint, you must hit
> Esc twice.
>
> Also the status bar message appends (Esc to cancel) whenever Esc does
> anything, so there is a small clue to discoverability.
>
> I like this compromise -- it accomplishes what I want, while avoiding the
> recent objections, and I think I don't need to make this EXPERIMENTAL or
> hide it in the non-default state of a new preference.
>
> There should be small consequences for the manual, mostly words, unless
> perhaps there are images with the status bar messages lacking (Esc to
> cancel) that might need update.
>
> Any complaints?

I was dubious about this from the written description, but from
initial practical tests it seems to work rather well.

Although I think that at least some users will find the light show produced by the flickering snap lines as you move the mouse pointer around the track panel at least a little irritating. I'm afraid I'm one of them.

David.
 

Steve

>
> PRL
>
>
>
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