Cannot Save an empty Project

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Cannot Save an empty Project

Peter Sampson-2
Is there any logical reason why with a totally new empty project when you invole
the File Menu the "Save Preoject" command is grayed out and unavailable while
the "Save Project As..." command is not grayed out and is available and usable?

This makes no sense to me at all :-//


We have had this for a very long time - it was introduced between Audacity 0.8
where the simple Save command was available (but yields the error message
that you cannot save an empty project) and 0.98b where the "Save Project" is
grayed out for an empty project.  Curiously for both 0.8 and 0.98b the
"Save Project As..." works just fine for an empty project.

I can only assume that the graying out that occurred in 0.98b and henceforth was
to avoid getting the error message about saving an empty project.  But that makes
no sense at all as it is perfectly valid to save an empty project - in fact it is something
we recommend to users so that they avoid using the Audacity Temporary files.

Cheers,
Peter.



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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

James Crook
Save-Project needs a project name to already exist, e.g. the name of a
project you opened, and it saves to that name.  So if there is no name
it is greyed out.
Save-Project-As prompts for a name, and so does not need the name to
already exist.  If there is no name yet, it can still be used.
--James.

On 2/8/2017 10:42 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:

> Is there any logical reason why with a totally new empty project when you
> invole
> the File Menu the "Save Preoject" command is grayed out and unavailable
> while
> the "Save Project As..." command is not grayed out and is available and
> usable?
>
> This makes no sense to me at all :-//
>
>
> We have had this for a very long time - it was introduced between Audacity
> 0.8
> where the simple Save command was available (but yields the error message
> that you cannot save an empty project) and 0.98b where the "Save Project" is
> grayed out for an empty project.  Curiously for both 0.8 and 0.98b the
> "Save Project As..." works just fine for an empty project.
>
> I can only assume that the graying out that occurred in 0.98b and
> henceforth was
> to avoid getting the error message about saving an empty project.  But that
> makes
> no sense at all as it is perfectly valid to save an empty project - in fact
> it is something
> we recommend to users so that they avoid using the Audacity Temporary files.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.


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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 8 February 2017 at 10:42, Peter Sampson
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there any logical reason why with a totally new empty project when you
> invole
> the File Menu the "Save Preoject" command is grayed out and unavailable
> while
> the "Save Project As..." command is not grayed out and is available and
> usable?
>
> This makes no sense to me at all :-//

A couple of considerations:

1) After a project has been saved, "Save Project" simply saves the
project with its current name and location. For a new empty project,
that is not possible because the project does not yet have a name or
location.

2) On opening a project (either a new empty project or an existing
project, there are initially no changes to save. If "Save" was
enabled, it  would do nothing because in effect it would save "no
change" / "nothing".
You can however still save the project with a new name / in a new
location, which is what "Save As" does.
Once the project has been modified in some way, there are changes that
can be saved, so "Save" will save those changes.

This behaviour is not unique to Audacity. It's one of the two most
common ways of handling the "special case" of an open project /
document with no changes. The other common way to handle this "special
case" is for "Save" to behave in the same way as "Save As" (and then
revert to normal "Save" behaviour when there are changes that can be
saved).

Steve


>
>
> We have had this for a very long time - it was introduced between Audacity
> 0.8
> where the simple Save command was available (but yields the error message
> that you cannot save an empty project) and 0.98b where the "Save Project" is
> grayed out for an empty project.  Curiously for both 0.8 and 0.98b the
> "Save Project As..." works just fine for an empty project.
>
> I can only assume that the graying out that occurred in 0.98b and henceforth
> was
> to avoid getting the error message about saving an empty project.  But that
> makes
> no sense at all as it is perfectly valid to save an empty project - in fact
> it is something
> we recommend to users so that they avoid using the Audacity Temporary files.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.
>
>
>
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> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Peter Sampson-2
Fair enough - I'd come to the same conclusion while I was sitting watching
the ski raciing.

Sorry for the noise.

Peter.

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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Peter Sampson-2
Actually not just "noise" ...

If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you invoke
the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
operable even though the project has no name at that stage. 

When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...

So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the same for
a totally empty project.

Peter.

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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Stevethefiddle
On 8 February 2017 at 12:32, Peter Sampson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Actually not just "noise" ...
>
> If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you
> invoke
> the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
> operable even though the project has no name at that stage.
>
> When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
> the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...
>
> So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the
> same for
> a totally empty project.

I agree that logically we 'could' have the "Save" button enabled for a
new empty project. As you say, an empty project can be "saved" by
using "Save As", and that creates a new, named, but otherwise empty
project.

Does it make sense to have the "Save" button enabled on opening a
saved project that has not been changed in any way? In this case,
selecting the (enabled) "Save" command does nothing.

Steve

>
> Peter.
>

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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Gale
Administrator
On 8 February 2017 at 17:41, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8 February 2017 at 12:32, Peter Sampson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Actually not just "noise" ...
>>
>> If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you
>> invoke
>> the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
>> operable even though the project has no name at that stage.
>>
>> When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
>> the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...
>>
>> So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the
>> same for
>> a totally empty project.
>
> I agree that logically we 'could' have the "Save" button enabled for a
> new empty project. As you say, an empty project can be "saved" by
> using "Save As", and that creates a new, named, but otherwise empty
> project.
>
> Does it make sense to have the "Save" button enabled on opening a
> saved project that has not been changed in any way? In this case,
> selecting the (enabled) "Save" command does nothing.

No that makes no sense to me.

The other common way of handling this that Steve mentioned
means that after opening a new empty project and also after
making changes, both Save and Save As are active until you
save the project. I tend to think that's more confusing.

I do think some users who want to save a new empty project so
as to give it a name find it confusing that Save Project is greyed
out.

Should Save Project As then be greyed out until there is a saved
project, and thus until Save Project As provides a way of saving to
a different name? I can't think I've seen it done like this elsewhere,
which might be a reason against.


Gale

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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Cliff Scott

> On Feb 8, 2017, at 12:39 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 8 February 2017 at 17:41, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 8 February 2017 at 12:32, Peter Sampson
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Actually not just "noise" ...
>>>
>>> If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you
>>> invoke
>>> the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
>>> operable even though the project has no name at that stage.
>>>
>>> When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
>>> the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...
>>>
>>> So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the
>>> same for
>>> a totally empty project.
>>
>> I agree that logically we 'could' have the "Save" button enabled for a
>> new empty project. As you say, an empty project can be "saved" by
>> using "Save As", and that creates a new, named, but otherwise empty
>> project.
>>
>> Does it make sense to have the "Save" button enabled on opening a
>> saved project that has not been changed in any way? In this case,
>> selecting the (enabled) "Save" command does nothing.
>
> No that makes no sense to me.
>
> The other common way of handling this that Steve mentioned
> means that after opening a new empty project and also after
> making changes, both Save and Save As are active until you
> save the project. I tend to think that's more confusing.
>
> I do think some users who want to save a new empty project so
> as to give it a name find it confusing that Save Project is greyed
> out.
>
> Should Save Project As then be greyed out until there is a saved
> project, and thus until Save Project As provides a way of saving to
> a different name? I can't think I've seen it done like this elsewhere,
> which might be a reason against.
>
>
> Gale

I can't think of any software that doesn't enable Save for a new project. The Save acts like the Save As in that it asks for a name along with the location. Save As in my understanding is just for "renaming" an existing project to protect the already saved version in it's saved condition.

Cliff
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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Gale
Administrator
On 8 February 2017 at 19:04, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On Feb 8, 2017, at 12:39 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 8 February 2017 at 17:41, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 8 February 2017 at 12:32, Peter Sampson
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Actually not just "noise" ...
>>>>
>>>> If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you
>>>> invoke
>>>> the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
>>>> operable even though the project has no name at that stage.
>>>>
>>>> When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
>>>> the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...
>>>>
>>>> So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the
>>>> same for
>>>> a totally empty project.
>>>
>>> I agree that logically we 'could' have the "Save" button enabled for a
>>> new empty project. As you say, an empty project can be "saved" by
>>> using "Save As", and that creates a new, named, but otherwise empty
>>> project.
>>>
>>> Does it make sense to have the "Save" button enabled on opening a
>>> saved project that has not been changed in any way? In this case,
>>> selecting the (enabled) "Save" command does nothing.
>>
>> No that makes no sense to me.
>>
>> The other common way of handling this that Steve mentioned
>> means that after opening a new empty project and also after
>> making changes, both Save and Save As are active until you
>> save the project. I tend to think that's more confusing.
>>
>> I do think some users who want to save a new empty project so
>> as to give it a name find it confusing that Save Project is greyed
>> out.
>>
>> Should Save Project As then be greyed out until there is a saved
>> project, and thus until Save Project As provides a way of saving to
>> a different name? I can't think I've seen it done like this elsewhere,
>> which might be a reason against.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>
> I can't think of any software that doesn't enable Save for a new project. The Save acts like the Save As in that it asks for a name along with the location. Save As in my understanding is just for "renaming" an existing project to protect the already saved version in it's saved condition.

That is its main purpose. So does that mean you see a possible benefit
in disabling Save Project As until the window contains a project that
has been saved at some stage?

Or that you want Save and Save Project As both enabled for a new
empty project?


Gale

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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Cliff Scott

> On Feb 8, 2017, at 1:53 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 8 February 2017 at 19:04, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 8, 2017, at 12:39 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8 February 2017 at 17:41, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 8 February 2017 at 12:32, Peter Sampson
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Actually not just "noise" ...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you
>>>>> invoke
>>>>> the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
>>>>> operable even though the project has no name at that stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
>>>>> the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...
>>>>>
>>>>> So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the
>>>>> same for
>>>>> a totally empty project.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that logically we 'could' have the "Save" button enabled for a
>>>> new empty project. As you say, an empty project can be "saved" by
>>>> using "Save As", and that creates a new, named, but otherwise empty
>>>> project.
>>>>
>>>> Does it make sense to have the "Save" button enabled on opening a
>>>> saved project that has not been changed in any way? In this case,
>>>> selecting the (enabled) "Save" command does nothing.
>>>
>>> No that makes no sense to me.
>>>
>>> The other common way of handling this that Steve mentioned
>>> means that after opening a new empty project and also after
>>> making changes, both Save and Save As are active until you
>>> save the project. I tend to think that's more confusing.
>>>
>>> I do think some users who want to save a new empty project so
>>> as to give it a name find it confusing that Save Project is greyed
>>> out.
>>>
>>> Should Save Project As then be greyed out until there is a saved
>>> project, and thus until Save Project As provides a way of saving to
>>> a different name? I can't think I've seen it done like this elsewhere,
>>> which might be a reason against.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>
>> I can't think of any software that doesn't enable Save for a new project. The Save acts like the Save As in that it asks for a name along with the location. Save As in my understanding is just for "renaming" an existing project to protect the already saved version in it's saved condition.
>
> That is its main purpose. So does that mean you see a possible benefit
> in disabling Save Project As until the window contains a project that
> has been saved at some stage?
>
> Or that you want Save and Save Project As both enabled for a new
> empty project?

For simplicity sake leave both enabled. It is already that way once there is data to save. Just don't make a special case of no data. I don't think we need to force the user to use one or the other. In this situation they would be equivalent. I'm use to, and I think most of us are, to hit Save when saving a new project expecting it will ask for a name if it already doesn't have one, as well as a location. As it is now Save As offers Untitled as a name which the user can change.

Cliff
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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Bill Wharrie
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2

> On 2017/02/08, at 7:32 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Actually not just "noise" ...
>
> If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you invoke
> the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
> operable even though the project has no name at that stage.  

Not only that, but you can delete the just-recorded track, thus reverting to an empty, new, untitled project, and the Save Project command remains enabled. There is no difference between the project in this state and the state before you did the recording (other than the undo history).

I find it convenient to just hit command+S the save a new project and be presented with the “Save As” dialog. This is what LibreOffice does. Conversely, Photoshop 5.1 greys out “Save” until a change is made to the new document, but if you undo back to the “virgin” state, “Save” is again greyed out. I don’t see why it is so important to disable “Save” for an empty project (or document).

— Bill


>
> When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
> the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...
>
> So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the same for
> a totally empty project.
>
> Peter.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Stevethefiddle
On 8 February 2017 at 20:49, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On 2017/02/08, at 7:32 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Actually not just "noise" ...
>>
>> If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you invoke
>> the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
>> operable even though the project has no name at that stage.
>
> Not only that, but you can delete the just-recorded track, thus reverting to an empty, new, untitled project, and the Save Project command remains enabled. There is no difference between the project in this state and the state before you did the recording (other than the undo history).
>
> I find it convenient to just hit command+S the save a new project and be presented with the “Save As” dialog. This is what LibreOffice does. Conversely, Photoshop 5.1 greys out “Save” until a change is made to the new document, but if you undo back to the “virgin” state, “Save” is again greyed out. I don’t see why it is so important to disable “Save” for an empty project (or document).

As you have illustrated Bill, there's more than one way that
applications handle the "special case" of saving when there are no
changes.

In the case of Audacity, I think that we want to be able to save an
empty project, which we can by using "Save As". I agree that it would
be a little more convenient if we could just use Ctrl+S, but at least
Audacity is able to save an empty project.

On the other hand, I think that we agree that having the "Save" button
enabled when opening a previously saved project makes no sense until
there is some change that can be saved. Audacity does what we want in
this case.

The way that Audacity handles this is that "Save" is greyed out unless
there are changes to the project, but creating a new project does not
count as a "change", so as you have hinted at, this is very much
concerned with the "history".

It would be very easy to enable the Save button for a new project,
simply by removing the check "have there been changes". However, that
would have an unfortunate side effect that the Save button would then
also be enabled in the case of opening a previously saved project.

Another approach could be to count "Create a new project" as a
"change". We could then have the "Save" button enabled for new empty
projects, and greyed out for projects that have been opened but not
yet changed. Unfortunately this also has an unwanted side effect - if
we call "create a new project" as a "change", then the user will be
prompted to save their changes even if all they have done is to launch
Audacity.

My thoughts after an albeit brief look at the code, is that what we
have now is mostly what most of us want, and is not dissimilar to some
other applications. "Tweaking" it to possibly provide a small
improvement would require working around side effects that are much
worse than the "problem" that we seek to "fix". I'm much inclined to
leave it as it is.

Steve


>
> — Bill
>
>
>>
>> When you use the Save Project command in this use case it takes you through
>> the same dialog as if you had invoked Save Project As...
>>
>> So I still contend that we could (and probabaly logically should) do the same for
>> a totally empty project.
>>
>> Peter.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
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>
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Re: Cannot Save an empty Project

Cliff Scott

On Feb 8, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 8 February 2017 at 20:49, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2017/02/08, at 7:32 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Actually not just "noise" ...

If you create a new project and then record some audio - then when you invoke
the File menu the Sace Project command is no longer grayed out and is
operable even though the project has no name at that stage.

Not only that, but you can delete the just-recorded track, thus reverting to an empty, new, untitled project, and the Save Project command remains enabled. There is no difference between the project in this state and the state before you did the recording (other than the undo history).

I find it convenient to just hit command+S the save a new project and be presented with the “Save As” dialog. This is what LibreOffice does. Conversely, Photoshop 5.1 greys out “Save” until a change is made to the new document, but if you undo back to the “virgin” state, “Save” is again greyed out. I don’t see why it is so important to disable “Save” for an empty project (or document).

As you have illustrated Bill, there's more than one way that
applications handle the "special case" of saving when there are no
changes.

In the case of Audacity, I think that we want to be able to save an
empty project, which we can by using "Save As". I agree that it would
be a little more convenient if we could just use Ctrl+S, but at least
Audacity is able to save an empty project.

On the other hand, I think that we agree that having the "Save" button
enabled when opening a previously saved project makes no sense until
there is some change that can be saved. Audacity does what we want in
this case.

The way that Audacity handles this is that "Save" is greyed out unless
there are changes to the project, but creating a new project does not
count as a "change", so as you have hinted at, this is very much
concerned with the "history".

It would be very easy to enable the Save button for a new project,
simply by removing the check "have there been changes". However, that
would have an unfortunate side effect that the Save button would then
also be enabled in the case of opening a previously saved project.

Another approach could be to count "Create a new project" as a
"change". We could then have the "Save" button enabled for new empty
projects, and greyed out for projects that have been opened but not
yet changed. Unfortunately this also has an unwanted side effect - if
we call "create a new project" as a "change", then the user will be
prompted to save their changes even if all they have done is to launch
Audacity.

My thoughts after an albeit brief look at the code, is that what we
have now is mostly what most of us want, and is not dissimilar to some
other applications. "Tweaking" it to possibly provide a small
improvement would require working around side effects that are much
worse than the "problem" that we seek to "fix". I'm much inclined to
leave it as it is.

Steve

While we're talking about what constitutes a "change" to trigger a request to Save on closing can we consider the case where the Metadata is just looked at or comes up on Export, but is not changed as "no change"? It's kind of a pain to have the dialog come up when closing after Exporting saying that there is a change when in fact there was no change. Not a major problem, but one of those little irritations that tarnish the image of Audacity.

Cliff

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