Commands to navigate between clips

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Commands to navigate between clips

David Bailes-3
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
recent ones for labels.

Hi Robert,
I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary, whether it was a start or end.
2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.

Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using the keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be straightforward to work out the best way of doing?

And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?

David. 

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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Robert Hänggi
Hi David

I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
specific boundary from there (arrow left or right).
Yes, it is a pity that time shifting is not implemented for keyboard
use and it is certainly hard to achieve.

Robert

2016-11-02 14:43 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:

> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>  wrote:
>
>>
>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>> recent ones for labels.
>
>
> Hi Robert,
> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
> whether it was a start or end.
> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>
> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using the
> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>
> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>
> David.
>

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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Gale
Administrator
Selecting all the clip when moving to it saves a step if
you want to select all the clip, so seems like a good idea

You would still want the commands to select to the
start/end of the clip.


Gale


On 2 November 2016 at 15:53, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi David
>
> I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right).
> Yes, it is a pity that time shifting is not implemented for keyboard
> use and it is certainly hard to achieve.
>
> Robert
>
> 2016-11-02 14:43 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>> recent ones for labels.
>>
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>> whether it was a start or end.
>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>
>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using the
>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>
>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>
>> David.
>>
>
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> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by David Bailes-3
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
recent ones for labels.

Hi Robert,
I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary, whether it was a start or end.
2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.

Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using the keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be straightforward to work out the best way of doing?

And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?

I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default shortcuts are just for testing:
1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.

The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for testing:
1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.

Robert made the suggestion:
"I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."

However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the start or end of that clip. If might well be that the commands suggested by Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.

I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is for the first one.
Feedback?

David.
 

David. 


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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Peter Sampson-2
.A related aside here:

I thought we had discussed and agreed a wfew months back that we would try
to avoid creating new shortcuts for commands as we already have so many already
which:
a) makes it impossible for most (maybe all) users to remeber them all,
b) the more we take up the harder we make it for users to find available
shortcuts for their custom settings.

Of course, if these are "Spirit commands" with no correspponding menu entries
then we are stuck with providing keyboard shortcuts.

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by David Bailes-3
Hi David
I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.

2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:

> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>> recent ones for labels.
>>
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>> whether it was a start or end.
>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>
>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>> the
>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>
>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>
>
> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
> shortcuts are just for testing:
> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>
> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
> testing:
> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>
> Robert made the suggestion:
> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>
> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
> start or end of that clip.

I don't see much of a problem there:
1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
"Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
2 (or 3, skipping #2).
4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
seeking through all clips in a track.

We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.

I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
Thanks for your time and effort on this.
Cheers
Robert

> If might well be that the commands suggested by
> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>
> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is for
> the first one.
> Feedback?
>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> David.
>>
>

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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Robert Hänggi
@Peter
Those shortcuts are all provisional, a service by David in order to
test effectively.
I see your point and the frustration it can cause.
Imagine a VI user that starts out with Audacity. Due to the lack of
clip/label accessibility, all the predefined key assignments for clip
boundaries, label joining and also some zoom commands (over thirty all
in all!) are/were pretty useless for him.

As for "Spirit" commands:

You might have seen my proposal for a dedicated select menu. It can
easily be extended to include labels and clips.

Select (main menu entry)
  All
   Nothing
   Region... (sub menu)
      Project Start to Cursor (Shift+Home)
      Cursor to Project End (Shift+End)
      Track Start to Cursor (Shift+J)
      ...
   Tracks... (sub menu)
      All (Ctrl+Shift+K)
      Sync-locked (Ctrl+Shift+>)
      None
      Toggle (Steve's idea)
      Expand/Contract down (Shift+Down)
      ...
   Spectral... (sub menu)
      Toggle spectral selection*
      Next Higher Peak Frequency
      Next Lower Peak Frequency
   Clip (sub menu)
      Previous
      Next
   Label (sub menu)
      Previous
      Next
   ... (e.g. all the store/retrieve/join commands for selections)

* I think the last two words should be capitalized, currently not the
case in 2.2.0.

I would have liked to list all the commands that are related to
selections but it isn't that easy, even with the name search in
Preferences/Keyboard.

Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Robert

2017-03-22 8:06 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:

> Hi David
> I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
> In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.
>
> 2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>>> recent ones for labels.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>>> whether it was a start or end.
>>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>>
>>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>>> the
>>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>>
>>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>>
>>
>> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>> shortcuts are just for testing:
>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>>
>> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
>> testing:
>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>>
>> Robert made the suggestion:
>> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>>
>> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>> start or end of that clip.
>
> I don't see much of a problem there:
> 1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
> any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
> 2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
> 3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
> "Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
> 2 (or 3, skipping #2).
> 4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
> previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
> seeking through all clips in a track.
>
> We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
> with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
> dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.
>
> I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
> Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
> Thanks for your time and effort on this.
> Cheers
> Robert
>
>> If might well be that the commands suggested by
>> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>>
>> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>> for
>> the first one.
>> Feedback?
>>
>> David.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>
>

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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

James Crook
I'm liking the idea of a 'select' top level menu.
The page:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Select_Then_Act

is partly motivated by the observation that editors become a lot more
powerful when you cleanly separate selection from acting on the
selection - and then increase the range of what you can do to modify a
selection.

Spectral selection, multiple selection, fuzzy selection (think
selection+envelope) are all examples of how the idea of selection can be
made more general.

--James.


On 3/22/2017 8:01 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:

> @Peter
> Those shortcuts are all provisional, a service by David in order to
> test effectively.
> I see your point and the frustration it can cause.
> Imagine a VI user that starts out with Audacity. Due to the lack of
> clip/label accessibility, all the predefined key assignments for clip
> boundaries, label joining and also some zoom commands (over thirty all
> in all!) are/were pretty useless for him.
>
> As for "Spirit" commands:
>
> You might have seen my proposal for a dedicated select menu. It can
> easily be extended to include labels and clips.
>
> Select (main menu entry)
>    All
>     Nothing
>     Region... (sub menu)
>        Project Start to Cursor (Shift+Home)
>        Cursor to Project End (Shift+End)
>        Track Start to Cursor (Shift+J)
>        ...
>     Tracks... (sub menu)
>        All (Ctrl+Shift+K)
>        Sync-locked (Ctrl+Shift+>)
>        None
>        Toggle (Steve's idea)
>        Expand/Contract down (Shift+Down)
>        ...
>     Spectral... (sub menu)
>        Toggle spectral selection*
>        Next Higher Peak Frequency
>        Next Lower Peak Frequency
>     Clip (sub menu)
>        Previous
>        Next
>     Label (sub menu)
>        Previous
>        Next
>     ... (e.g. all the store/retrieve/join commands for selections)
>
> * I think the last two words should be capitalized, currently not the
> case in 2.2.0.
>
> I would have liked to list all the commands that are related to
> selections but it isn't that easy, even with the name search in
> Preferences/Keyboard.
>
> Let me know what you think.
> Cheers
> Robert
>
> 2017-03-22 8:06 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi David
>> I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
>> In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.
>>
>> 2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>>>> recent ones for labels.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>>>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>>>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>>>> whether it was a start or end.
>>>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>>>
>>>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>>>> the
>>>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>>>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>>>
>>>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>>>
>>> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>>> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>>> shortcuts are just for testing:
>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>>> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>>> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>>> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>>>
>>> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
>>> testing:
>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>>> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>>> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>>> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>>> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>>> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>>>
>>> Robert made the suggestion:
>>> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>>> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>>>
>>> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>>> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>>> start or end of that clip.
>> I don't see much of a problem there:
>> 1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
>> any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
>> 2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
>> 3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
>> "Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
>> 2 (or 3, skipping #2).
>> 4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
>> previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
>> seeking through all clips in a track.
>>
>> We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
>> with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
>> dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.
>>
>> I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
>> Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
>> Thanks for your time and effort on this.
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>>> If might well be that the commands suggested by
>>> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>>> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>>>
>>> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>>> for
>>> the first one.
>>> Feedback?
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
I think there should be commands to select next/previous clip,
regardless of fine decisions about moving to next/previous
boundary or start/end.


Gale


On 22 March 2017 at 08:01, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> @Peter
> Those shortcuts are all provisional, a service by David in order to
> test effectively.
> I see your point and the frustration it can cause.
> Imagine a VI user that starts out with Audacity. Due to the lack of
> clip/label accessibility, all the predefined key assignments for clip
> boundaries, label joining and also some zoom commands (over thirty all
> in all!) are/were pretty useless for him.
>
> As for "Spirit" commands:
>
> You might have seen my proposal for a dedicated select menu. It can
> easily be extended to include labels and clips.
>
> Select (main menu entry)
>   All
>    Nothing
>    Region... (sub menu)
>       Project Start to Cursor (Shift+Home)
>       Cursor to Project End (Shift+End)
>       Track Start to Cursor (Shift+J)
>       ...
>    Tracks... (sub menu)
>       All (Ctrl+Shift+K)
>       Sync-locked (Ctrl+Shift+>)
>       None
>       Toggle (Steve's idea)
>       Expand/Contract down (Shift+Down)
>       ...
>    Spectral... (sub menu)
>       Toggle spectral selection*
>       Next Higher Peak Frequency
>       Next Lower Peak Frequency
>    Clip (sub menu)
>       Previous
>       Next
>    Label (sub menu)
>       Previous
>       Next
>    ... (e.g. all the store/retrieve/join commands for selections)
>
> * I think the last two words should be capitalized, currently not the
> case in 2.2.0.
>
> I would have liked to list all the commands that are related to
> selections but it isn't that easy, even with the name search in
> Preferences/Keyboard.
>
> Let me know what you think.
> Cheers
> Robert
>
> 2017-03-22 8:06 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi David
>> I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
>> In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.
>>
>> 2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>>>> recent ones for labels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>>>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>>>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>>>> whether it was a start or end.
>>>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>>>
>>>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>>>> the
>>>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>>>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>>>
>>>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>>> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>>> shortcuts are just for testing:
>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>>> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>>> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>>> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>>>
>>> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
>>> testing:
>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>>> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>>> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>>> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>>> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>>> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>>>
>>> Robert made the suggestion:
>>> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>>> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>>>
>>> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>>> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>>> start or end of that clip.
>>
>> I don't see much of a problem there:
>> 1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
>> any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
>> 2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
>> 3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
>> "Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
>> 2 (or 3, skipping #2).
>> 4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
>> previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
>> seeking through all clips in a track.
>>
>> We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
>> with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
>> dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.
>>
>> I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
>> Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
>> Thanks for your time and effort on this.
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>>> If might well be that the commands suggested by
>>> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>>> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>>>
>>> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>>> for
>>> the first one.
>>> Feedback?
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

James Crook
On 3/23/2017 5:00 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> I think there should be commands to select next/previous clip,
> regardless of fine decisions about moving to next/previous
> boundary or start/end.

Just to note that there may be a case for all four of these:

next clip on this track
previous clip on this track
next clip on any track
previous clip on any track


>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 22 March 2017 at 08:01, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> @Peter
>> Those shortcuts are all provisional, a service by David in order to
>> test effectively.
>> I see your point and the frustration it can cause.
>> Imagine a VI user that starts out with Audacity. Due to the lack of
>> clip/label accessibility, all the predefined key assignments for clip
>> boundaries, label joining and also some zoom commands (over thirty all
>> in all!) are/were pretty useless for him.
>>
>> As for "Spirit" commands:
>>
>> You might have seen my proposal for a dedicated select menu. It can
>> easily be extended to include labels and clips.
>>
>> Select (main menu entry)
>>    All
>>     Nothing
>>     Region... (sub menu)
>>        Project Start to Cursor (Shift+Home)
>>        Cursor to Project End (Shift+End)
>>        Track Start to Cursor (Shift+J)
>>        ...
>>     Tracks... (sub menu)
>>        All (Ctrl+Shift+K)
>>        Sync-locked (Ctrl+Shift+>)
>>        None
>>        Toggle (Steve's idea)
>>        Expand/Contract down (Shift+Down)
>>        ...
>>     Spectral... (sub menu)
>>        Toggle spectral selection*
>>        Next Higher Peak Frequency
>>        Next Lower Peak Frequency
>>     Clip (sub menu)
>>        Previous
>>        Next
>>     Label (sub menu)
>>        Previous
>>        Next
>>     ... (e.g. all the store/retrieve/join commands for selections)
>>
>> * I think the last two words should be capitalized, currently not the
>> case in 2.2.0.
>>
>> I would have liked to list all the commands that are related to
>> selections but it isn't that easy, even with the name search in
>> Preferences/Keyboard.
>>
>> Let me know what you think.
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-03-22 8:06 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>> Hi David
>>> I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
>>> In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.
>>>
>>> 2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>>>>> recent ones for labels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>>>>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>>>>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>>>>> whether it was a start or end.
>>>>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>>>>> the
>>>>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>>>>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>>>>
>>>>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>>>>
>>>> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>>>> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>>>> shortcuts are just for testing:
>>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>>>> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>>>> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>>>> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>>>>
>>>> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
>>>> testing:
>>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>>>> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>>>> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>>>> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>>>> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>>>> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>>>>
>>>> Robert made the suggestion:
>>>> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>>>> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>>>>
>>>> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>>>> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>>>> start or end of that clip.
>>> I don't see much of a problem there:
>>> 1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
>>> any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
>>> 2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
>>> 3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
>>> "Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
>>> 2 (or 3, skipping #2).
>>> 4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
>>> previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
>>> seeking through all clips in a track.
>>>
>>> We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
>>> with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
>>> dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.
>>>
>>> I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
>>> Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
>>> Thanks for your time and effort on this.
>>> Cheers
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>> If might well be that the commands suggested by
>>>> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>>>> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>>>>
>>>> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>>>> for
>>>> the first one.
>>>> Feedback?
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David.
>>>>>
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi David
I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.

2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>> recent ones for labels.
>>
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>> whether it was a start or end.
>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>
>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>> the
>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>
>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>
>
> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
> shortcuts are just for testing:
> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>
> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
> testing:
> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>
> Robert made the suggestion:
> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>
> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
> start or end of that clip.

I don't see much of a problem there:
1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
"Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
2 (or 3, skipping #2).
4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
seeking through all clips in a track.

thanks for your feedback. I've implemented a simplified version of your suggestion in the selectclip branch of my fork of Audacity. For testing purposes only, the commands for selecting previous and next clips have default shortcuts 5 and 6.
The rules.
Next clip: If the position of selection start/cursor is at the start of a clip, and selection end is not at the end of the clip, select that clip. Otherwise, select the next clip for which clip start > selection start/cursor position.
Previous clip: select the previous clip for which clip start < selection start/cursor position. 

We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.

The commands to select to the next/previous clip boundary would be more convenient, but I agree they are not needed to be able to get things done. If there were commands to move to previous/next clip boundary, and select to previous/next clip boundary, then when in a clip, they would function in a very similar manner to the commands with the shortcuts j and k and shift+j and shift + k.

David.

I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
Thanks for your time and effort on this.
Cheers
Robert

> If might well be that the commands suggested by
> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>
> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is for
> the first one.
> Feedback?
>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> David.
>>
>

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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Gale
Administrator
On 28 March 2017 at 10:56, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi David
>> I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
>> In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.
>>
>> 2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>> >>> recent ones for labels.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Robert,
>> >> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>> >> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>> >> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>> >> whether it was a start or end.
>> >> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>> >>
>> >> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>> >> the
>> >> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>> >> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>> >>
>> >> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>> >>
>> >
>> > I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>> > The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>> > shortcuts are just for testing:
>> > 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>> > 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>> > 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>> > 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>> > This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>> >
>> > The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just
>> > for
>> > testing:
>> > 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>> > 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>> > 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>> > 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>> > 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>> > 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>> > This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>> >
>> > Robert made the suggestion:
>> > "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>> > specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>> >
>> > However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>> > positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>> > start or end of that clip.
>>
>> I don't see much of a problem there:
>> 1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
>> any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
>> 2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
>> 3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
>> "Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
>> 2 (or 3, skipping #2).
>> 4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
>> previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
>> seeking through all clips in a track.
>
>
> thanks for your feedback. I've implemented a simplified version of your
> suggestion in the selectclip branch of my fork of Audacity. For testing
> purposes only, the commands for selecting previous and next clips have
> default shortcuts 5 and 6.
> The rules.
> Next clip: If the position of selection start/cursor is at the start of a
> clip, and selection end is not at the end of the clip, select that clip.
> Otherwise, select the next clip for which clip start > selection
> start/cursor position.
> Previous clip: select the previous clip for which clip start < selection
> start/cursor position.
>>
>>
>> We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
>> with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
>> dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.
>
>
> The commands to select to the next/previous clip boundary would be more
> convenient

+1


Gale


> but I agree they are not needed to be able to get things done.
> If there were commands to move to previous/next clip boundary, and select to
> previous/next clip boundary, then when in a clip, they would function in a
> very similar manner to the commands with the shortcuts j and k and shift+j
> and shift + k.
>
> David.
>>
>>
>> I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
>> Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
>> Thanks for your time and effort on this.
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>> > If might well be that the commands suggested by
>> > Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>> > alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>> >
>> > I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>> > for
>> > the first one.
>> > Feedback?
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> David.
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
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>
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by James Crook
On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:12 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 5:00 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> I think there should be commands to select next/previous clip,
> regardless of fine decisions about moving to next/previous
> boundary or start/end.

Just to note that there may be a case for all four of these:

next clip on this track
previous clip on this track
next clip on any track
previous clip on any track

I'm not sure about selecting clips like this, but for  moving to next/previous clip boundary this may be useful. Reaper has a move cursor to next/previous clip boundary command which uses the clips on all tracks. For selecting items (our clips) I think it uses the focused track.

David.



>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 22 March 2017 at 08:01, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> @Peter
>> Those shortcuts are all provisional, a service by David in order to
>> test effectively.
>> I see your point and the frustration it can cause.
>> Imagine a VI user that starts out with Audacity. Due to the lack of
>> clip/label accessibility, all the predefined key assignments for clip
>> boundaries, label joining and also some zoom commands (over thirty all
>> in all!) are/were pretty useless for him.
>>
>> As for "Spirit" commands:
>>
>> You might have seen my proposal for a dedicated select menu. It can
>> easily be extended to include labels and clips.
>>
>> Select (main menu entry)
>>    All
>>     Nothing
>>     Region... (sub menu)
>>        Project Start to Cursor (Shift+Home)
>>        Cursor to Project End (Shift+End)
>>        Track Start to Cursor (Shift+J)
>>        ...
>>     Tracks... (sub menu)
>>        All (Ctrl+Shift+K)
>>        Sync-locked (Ctrl+Shift+>)
>>        None
>>        Toggle (Steve's idea)
>>        Expand/Contract down (Shift+Down)
>>        ...
>>     Spectral... (sub menu)
>>        Toggle spectral selection*
>>        Next Higher Peak Frequency
>>        Next Lower Peak Frequency
>>     Clip (sub menu)
>>        Previous
>>        Next
>>     Label (sub menu)
>>        Previous
>>        Next
>>     ... (e.g. all the store/retrieve/join commands for selections)
>>
>> * I think the last two words should be capitalized, currently not the
>> case in 2.2.0.
>>
>> I would have liked to list all the commands that are related to
>> selections but it isn't that easy, even with the name search in
>> Preferences/Keyboard.
>>
>> Let me know what you think.
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-03-22 8:06 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>> Hi David
>>> I haven't had the time yet to try your branches, sorry.
>>> In general, I'm still favouring the "Select whole clip" option, see below.
>>>
>>> 2017-03-21 15:22 GMT+01:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>>>>> recent ones for labels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>>>>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>>>>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>>>>> whether it was a start or end.
>>>>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>>>>> the
>>>>> keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>>>>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>>>>
>>>>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>>>>
>>>> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>>>> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>>>> shortcuts are just for testing:
>>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>>>> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>>>> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>>>> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>>>>
>>>> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
>>>> testing:
>>>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>>>> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>>>> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>>>> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>>>> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>>>> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>>>> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>>>>
>>>> Robert made the suggestion:
>>>> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>>>> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>>>>
>>>> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>>>> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>>>> start or end of that clip.
>>> I don't see much of a problem there:
>>> 1. With a single cursor position, select the clip surrounding it if
>>> any of the next/previous clip commands is used.
>>> 2. Same with a selection fully inside a clip
>>> 3. If a selection starts in clip 1 and ends in clip 2 (or 3),
>>> "Previous Clip" would select clip 1 and "Next Clip" would select clip
>>> 2 (or 3, skipping #2).
>>> 4. If the selection coincides with clip boundaries already, the
>>> previous or next clip would be selected. This allows for continuous
>>> seeking through all clips in a track.
>>>
>>> We have already the commands to store a cursor and join that location
>>> with the current cursor position. Those could be used instead of
>>> dedicated commands to connect cursor and next clip boundary.
>>>
>>> I would also include the gaps between clips (if not already done so).
>>> Any way, I haven't tested yet, thus further suggestions are futile.
>>> Thanks for your time and effort on this.
>>> Cheers
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>> If might well be that the commands suggested by
>>>> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>>>> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>>>>
>>>> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>>>> for
>>>> the first one.
>>>> Feedback?
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David.
>>>>>
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by David Bailes-3
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:22 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
recent ones for labels.

Hi Robert,
I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary, whether it was a start or end.
2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.

Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using the keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be straightforward to work out the best way of doing?

And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?

I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default shortcuts are just for testing:
1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.

I've created a new branch clipnavbound2. The commands and default shortcuts are the same. The difference is the treatment of boundaries which are both the end of one clip and the start of the next clip. This occurs when clip are immediately next to each other. Screen reader users are now informed that the boundary is both the end and start of a clip.

David.


The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for testing:
1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.

Robert made the suggestion:
"I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."

However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the start or end of that clip. If might well be that the commands suggested by Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.

I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is for the first one.
Feedback?

David.
 

David. 



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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Gale
Administrator
David,

I tried this briefly now it's been committed. Very useful.

I wondered if Select > Clip Boundaries > Previous/Next Clip and
Transport > Cursor to > Previous/Next Clip Boundary shouldn't
cycle continuously when they reach the final clip/boundary like
Move to Next/Previous label do.

Perhaps you might argue no, because Select > Clip Boundaries >
Previous Clip Boundary to Cursor/Cursor to Next Clip Boundary
should not cycle, but I think even those could do so.

It looks like only one track at a time is supported, which is the
focused track (the one that last had the cursor or selection moved
into it). Is that so)?

So if the last clip in track one ends at 5s and the last clip in track
two ends at 4s, there is no way to navigate between the clip ending
at 4s and that ending at 5s without moving track focus? I found this
confusing at first, when I had the selection or cursor in both tracks.



Gale


On 31 March 2017 at 10:51, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:22 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>>> recent ones for labels.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>>> whether it was a start or end.
>>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>>
>>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>>> the keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>>
>>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>
>>
>> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>> shortcuts are just for testing:
>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>
>
> I've created a new branch clipnavbound2. The commands and default shortcuts
> are the same. The difference is the treatment of boundaries which are both
> the end of one clip and the start of the next clip. This occurs when clip
> are immediately next to each other. Screen reader users are now informed
> that the boundary is both the end and start of a clip.
>
> David.
>
>>
>> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
>> testing:
>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>>
>> Robert made the suggestion:
>> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>>
>> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>> start or end of that clip. If might well be that the commands suggested by
>> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>>
>> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>> for the first one.
>> Feedback?
>>
>> David.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David.
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

David Bailes-3
On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
David,

I tried this briefly now it's been committed. Very useful.

I wondered if Select > Clip Boundaries > Previous/Next Clip and
Transport > Cursor to > Previous/Next Clip Boundary shouldn't
cycle continuously when they reach the final clip/boundary like
Move to Next/Previous label do.

Perhaps you might argue no, because Select > Clip Boundaries >
Previous Clip Boundary to Cursor/Cursor to Next Clip Boundary
should not cycle, but I think even those could do so.

I think it would be confusing if the selection commands cycled round. And if they don't cycle round, maybe it's more consistent for the cursor commands not to, as well. 

It looks like only one track at a time is supported, which is the
focused track (the one that last had the cursor or selection moved
into it). Is that so)?

Yes, currently all the commands work on the focused track (the one with the yellow outline). 

So if the last clip in track one ends at 5s and the last clip in track
two ends at 4s, there is no way to navigate between the clip ending
at 4s and that ending at 5s without moving track focus? I found this
confusing at first, when I had the selection or cursor in both tracks.

James has already suggested that there should also be commands that work in more than one track, and I agree with that. The possibilities for what tracks clip commands work on are obviously:
1. focused track
2. selected tracks
3. all tracks.

It's just a question of working out which of these would be useful.

David.



Gale


On 31 March 2017 at 10:51, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:22 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:43 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would rather add commands to navigate between clips same way as the
>>>> recent ones for labels.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>> I've changed the subject to reply to your comment about commands to
>>> navigate between clips. Would you want commands like:
>>> 1. Move to next clip boundary, which would move to the next boundary,
>>> whether it was a start or end.
>>> 2. Move to previous clip boundary, similarly.
>>>
>>> Would these commands be useful without the ability to move clips using
>>> the keyboard, which isn't present at the moment, and might not be
>>> straightforward to work out the best way of doing?
>>>
>>> And for selection, commands to select to start of clip and end of clip?
>>
>>
>> I've done some further work on this, and tried out two alternatives:
>> The first is the one outlined above, with 4 new commands. The default
>> shortcuts are just for testing:
>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip boundary(7).
>> 2. Move cursor to next clip boundary (8).
>> 3. Select Previous clip boundary to cursor(shift+7).
>> 4. Select Cursor to next clip boundary(shift+8).
>> This is available as branch clipnavbound in my fork of audacity.
>
>
> I've created a new branch clipnavbound2. The commands and default shortcuts
> are the same. The difference is the treatment of boundaries which are both
> the end of one clip and the start of the next clip. This occurs when clip
> are immediately next to each other. Screen reader users are now informed
> that the boundary is both the end and start of a clip.
>
> David.
>
>>
>> The second, with 6 new commands. Again the default shortcuts are just for
>> testing:
>> 1. Move cursor to previous clip start(7).
>> 2. Move cursor to next clip start(8).
>> 3. Move cursor to previous clip end(9).
>> 4. Move cursor to next clip end(0).
>> 5. Select previous clip start to cursor(shift+7).
>> 6. Select cursor to next clip end(shift+0).
>> This is available as branch clipnav in my fork of audacity.
>>
>> Robert made the suggestion:
>> "I would jump and select the clip since it would be easy to go to a
>> specific boundary from there (arrow left or right)."
>>
>> However that command wouldn't cover the case where the cursor was
>> positioned somewhere within a clip, and you wanted to move either to the
>> start or end of that clip. If might well be that the commands suggested by
>> Robert may be useful, but I think only in addition to one of the two
>> alternatives above, or indeed some other alternative.
>>
>> I've had a play with the two alternatives, and my current preference is
>> for the first one.
>> Feedback?
>>
>> David.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David.
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

James Crook
On 4/7/2017 9:53 AM, David Bailes wrote:

> James has already suggested that there should also be commands that
> work in
> more than one track, and I agree with that. The possibilities for what
> tracks clip commands work on are obviously:
> 1. focused track
> 2. selected tracks
> 3. all tracks.
>
> It's just a question of working out which of these would be useful.
>
> David.

Tracks->Pan already combines 2 and 3.  It is 'All selected tracks, or
all tracks, if none selected'.

I am a little concerned at the menus ballooning again as we add more
options, some of which are extremely useful to VI users but that may be
overload for sighted users.

The current ideas do seem to be pointing to a Track dialog for VI use.  
Just as we have a Labels editor dialog that was created for VI use, but
is useful to sighted users too, thinking in terms of a grid based track
editor may be more fruitful than ballooning of the menus.

--James.



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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

Peter Sampson-2
James wrote:
>I am a little concerned at the menus ballooning again as we add more
>options, some of which are extremely useful to VI users but that may be
>overload for sighted users.

+1

Balloning menus would effectively negate the work that has gone into the carefully
trimmed menus/submenus.

One thing I do note from reviews of DarkAudacity on the internet is that users and
reviewers really seemed to like the shorter menus.

Peter.

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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by James Crook
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 10:21 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 4/7/2017 9:53 AM, David Bailes wrote:
> James has already suggested that there should also be commands that
> work in
> more than one track, and I agree with that. The possibilities for what
> tracks clip commands work on are obviously:
> 1. focused track
> 2. selected tracks
> 3. all tracks.
>
> It's just a question of working out which of these would be useful.
>
> David.

Tracks->Pan already combines 2 and 3.  It is 'All selected tracks, or
all tracks, if none selected'.

I am a little concerned at the menus ballooning again as we add more
options, some of which are extremely useful to VI users but that may be
overload for sighted users.

These commands are useful for both sighted and VI keyboard users.
I don't think that the user interface should be optimized for mouse users at the expense of keyboard users.
 

The current ideas do seem to be pointing to a Track dialog for VI use.
Just as we have a Labels editor dialog that was created for VI use, but
is useful to sighted users too, thinking in terms of a grid based track
editor may be more fruitful than ballooning of the menus.

I presume that the labels editor was created because it wasn't obvious at the time how to make labels accessible in the main window. But making labels accessible in the main windows is the far preferable option. See the second comment on this article:

In addition, primarily because a problem with Jaws, grids are read by screen readers with a lot of distracting verbosity. So I don't think that a grid editor is the way to go. A comparatively small number of additional commands in the menus is far more user friendly.

I certainly don't think that the menus are ballooning, but if they do, then maybe there are other options to consider, like the action list in Reaper.

If Audacity wishes to prioritize mouse users over keyboard users, then that's its decision, but I don't agree with it.

David.
 

--James.



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Re: Commands to navigate between clips

James Crook
David,

I want Audacity to be accessible for VI users and also accessible for people new to the program.
Both groups benefit from decisions such as logical menu organisation, avoidance of repetition, consistency in where on/off commands go.

There is no question that in 2.2.0 the reduced menus are rapidly gaining useful new commands.  I'd argue that we should even consider more zoom commands, such as Zoom-Max (useful for people who want to edit at the sample level) and Zoom-Toggle (which we used to have, and that switches between two zoom levels).  Are we at risk of ballooning?  I hope not.  I don't want the work I've done on better menus to be wasted.

I also want the UI for both VI users and power users who use the keyboard a lot to be excellent.  I wasn't aware that Jaws has issues with grids.  Is there a bugzilla issue for that?  I previously saw grids as win-win for VI and non VI alike, wherever we have 'lists' of things, e.g. lists of labels, lists of tracks, lists of clips, lists of effects.  Potentially they allow us to write VI accessible code faster, benefit non VI users at the same time, and allow us to then retrofit accessibility onto features currently accessed by mouse.  That is how we now have accessible start and stop times for labels in the label tracks.  The label track menus invoke the label editor dialog to provide that.

--James.






On 4/7/2017 2:02 PM, David Bailes wrote:
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 10:21 AM, James Crook [hidden email] wrote:

On 4/7/2017 9:53 AM, David Bailes wrote:
James has already suggested that there should also be commands that
work in
more than one track, and I agree with that. The possibilities for what
tracks clip commands work on are obviously:
1. focused track
2. selected tracks
3. all tracks.

It's just a question of working out which of these would be useful.

David.
Tracks->Pan already combines 2 and 3.  It is 'All selected tracks, or
all tracks, if none selected'.

I am a little concerned at the menus ballooning again as we add more
options, some of which are extremely useful to VI users but that may be
overload for sighted users.

These commands are useful for both sighted and VI keyboard users.
I don't think that the user interface should be optimized for mouse users
at the expense of keyboard users.


The current ideas do seem to be pointing to a Track dialog for VI use.
Just as we have a Labels editor dialog that was created for VI use, but
is useful to sighted users too, thinking in terms of a grid based track
editor may be more fruitful than ballooning of the menus.

I presume that the labels editor was created because it wasn't obvious at
the time how to make labels accessible in the main window. But making
labels accessible in the main windows is the far preferable option. See the
second comment on this article:
http://chrishofstader.com/the-irony-of-inaccessible-music-technologies/

In addition, primarily because a problem with Jaws, grids are read by
screen readers with a lot of distracting verbosity. So I don't think that a
grid editor is the way to go. A comparatively small number of additional
commands in the menus is far more user friendly.

I certainly don't think that the menus are ballooning, but if they do, then
maybe there are other options to consider, like the action list in Reaper.

If Audacity wishes to prioritize mouse users over keyboard users, then
that's its decision, but I don't agree with it.

David.


      

--James.



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