Confusions about export sample rate

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Confusions about export sample rate

Paul Licameli
I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about the sample rate of exports.

The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project sample rate that governs.

Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?

Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?

PRL


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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Stevethefiddle
On 13 May 2017 at 17:04, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about the
> sample rate of exports.
>
> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
> sample rate that governs.
>
> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?

We could include sample rate in the export format settings (in the
Export dialog).

Steve

>
> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>
> PRL
>
>
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli
Your user is not the first to be confused, but there has never been
a consensus about this, so nothing has changed.

Some of the export dialogues such as for MP3 are quite full already.

A tooltip for Project Rate might also help such as "Rate for playback,
recording, mixing & export".

An on-by-default checkbox in Resample "Set Project Rate to this rate"
might be another idea.



Gale


On 13 May 2017 at 17:04, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about the
> sample rate of exports.
>
> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
> sample rate that governs.
>
> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>
> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>
> PRL
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

James Crook
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli
If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have different
sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
something that very few users will be aware of.

I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a very
special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.


One possible user interface change is to change the display of 'Project
Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
different rates.  Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more
options, and information - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that
let you upgrade/downgrade all to the same rate.
(Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
the bar widen if so)

In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
project rate could then simply follow that change.

--James.


On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:

> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about
> the sample rate of exports.
>
> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
> sample rate that governs.
>
> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>
> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>
> PRL
>


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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Gale
Administrator
On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have different
> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
> something that very few users will be aware of.
>
> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a very
> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.

I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that happens
to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.


> One possible user interface change is to change the display of 'Project
> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
> different rates.

But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
be rendering to?

> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and information
> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you upgrade/downgrade
> all to the same rate.

Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?


Gale


> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
> the bar widen if so)
>
> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>
> --James.
>
>
> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about
>> the sample rate of exports.
>>
>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
>> sample rate that governs.
>>
>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>>
>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>>
>> PRL
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Bill Wharrie
Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this simplify things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or dragging clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with terabyte drives?
— Bill

> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have different
>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>>
>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a very
>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>
> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that happens
> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>
>
>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of 'Project
>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
>> different rates.
>
> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
> be rendering to?
>
>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and information
>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you upgrade/downgrade
>> all to the same rate.
>
> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
>> the bar widen if so)
>>
>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about
>>> the sample rate of exports.
>>>
>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
>>> sample rate that governs.
>>>
>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Cliff Scott

> On May 14, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this simplify things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or dragging clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
> Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
> There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with terabyte drives?
> — Bill

I agree that the resampling on import would simplify, but for years I was one with small drives and slow internet speeds and it was a real pain when software assumed the other was true. It can be very frustrating to be in that camp. I'm not saying that it should control what we do with Audacity, but at least consider the possible effects in the decision process and if possible allow for work arounds.

Cliff

>
>> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have different
>>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
>>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>>>
>>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a very
>>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>>
>> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that happens
>> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>>
>>
>>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of 'Project
>>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
>>> different rates.
>>
>> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
>> be rendering to?
>>
>>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and information
>>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you upgrade/downgrade
>>> all to the same rate.
>>
>> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
>>> the bar widen if so)
>>>
>>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about
>>>> the sample rate of exports.
>>>>
>>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
>>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
>>>> sample rate that governs.
>>>>
>>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>>>>
>>>> PRL
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
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>
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Bill Wharrie
I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.

As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to look
at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have looked
and listened.


Gale

On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this simplify things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or dragging clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
> Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
> There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with terabyte drives?
> — Bill
>
>> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have different
>>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
>>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>>>
>>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a very
>>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>>
>> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that happens
>> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>>
>>
>>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of 'Project
>>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
>>> different rates.
>>
>> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
>> be rendering to?
>>
>>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and information
>>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you upgrade/downgrade
>>> all to the same rate.
>>
>> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
>>> the bar widen if so)
>>>
>>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about
>>>> the sample rate of exports.
>>>>
>>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
>>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
>>>> sample rate that governs.
>>>>
>>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>>>>
>>>> PRL
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Stevethefiddle


On 16 May 2017 at 02:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.

As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to look
at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have looked
and listened.

If we want to properly support the "view /  play only" people, then we should support "view / play only" properly.
We could do that by having a special "view / play mode", or even an "Audacity Player App".

Also, people that are using Audacity only for view / play, will only be importing one track into the project, so resampling need not be an issue - the Project Rate can just be set to match the imported data.


The vast majority of Audacity users use Audacity for the purpose for which it was designed - for recording and editing.

Steve
 


Gale

On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this simplify things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or dragging clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
> Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
> There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with terabyte drives?
> — Bill
>
>> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have different
>>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
>>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>>>
>>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a very
>>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>>
>> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that happens
>> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>>
>>
>>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of 'Project
>>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
>>> different rates.
>>
>> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
>> be rendering to?
>>
>>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and information
>>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you upgrade/downgrade
>>> all to the same rate.
>>
>> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
>>> the bar widen if so)
>>>
>>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused about
>>>> the sample rate of exports.
>>>>
>>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project would
>>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the project
>>>> sample rate that governs.
>>>>
>>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>>>>
>>>> PRL
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Gale
Administrator
On 16 May 2017 at 09:30, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 02:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
>> dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.
>>
>> As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to look
>> at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have looked
>> and listened.
>
>
> If we want to properly support the "view /  play only" people, then we
> should support "view / play only" properly.
> We could do that by having a special "view / play mode", or even an
> "Audacity Player App".

Fine. Will it ever happen?


> Also, people that are using Audacity only for view / play, will only be
> importing one track into the project

I don't think that is a safe assumption at all, though it may well be
generally true. We've heard of people comparing spectrum plots
of multiple files then bemoaning seeing "Save changes?" when
they quit.


> so resampling need not be an issue - the Project Rate can just be set
> to match the imported data.

Do I assume then you agree that we don't need to resample on import?



Gale


> The vast majority of Audacity users use Audacity for the purpose for which
> it was designed - for recording and editing.

> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within
>> > tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any
>> > imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this simplify
>> > things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or dragging
>> > clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
>> > Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
>> > There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an
>> > 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with terabyte
>> > drives?
>> > — Bill
>> >
>> >> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have
>> >>> different
>> >>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
>> >>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>> >>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a
>> >>> very
>> >>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that
>> >> happens
>> >> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of
>> >>> 'Project
>> >>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
>> >>> different rates.
>> >>
>> >> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
>> >> be rendering to?
>> >>
>> >>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and
>> >>> information
>> >>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you
>> >>> upgrade/downgrade
>> >>> all to the same rate.
>> >>
>> >> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
>> >>> the bar widen if so)
>> >>>
>> >>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>> >>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>> >>>
>> >>> --James.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>> >>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused
>> >>>> about
>> >>>> the sample rate of exports.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project
>> >>>> would
>> >>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the
>> >>>> project
>> >>>> sample rate that governs.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> PRL
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Stevethefiddle


On 16 May 2017 at 20:18, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 May 2017 at 09:30, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 02:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
>> dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.
>>
>> As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to look
>> at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have looked
>> and listened.
>
>
> If we want to properly support the "view /  play only" people, then we
> should support "view / play only" properly.
> We could do that by having a special "view / play mode", or even an
> "Audacity Player App".

Fine. Will it ever happen?

No idea. It probably depends on whether anyone is sufficiently motivated to develop it, but in the meantime, we shouldn't penalize the majority of users that want to use Audacity for its designed purpose, just because a minority don't.
 


> Also, people that are using Audacity only for view / play, will only be
> importing one track into the project

I don't think that is a safe assumption at all, though it may well be
generally true. We've heard of people comparing spectrum plots
of multiple files then bemoaning seeing "Save changes?" when
they quit.


> so resampling need not be an issue - the Project Rate can just be set
> to match the imported data.

Do I assume then you agree that we don't need to resample on import?

I agree that if the project consists of only one imported file there is no need to resample on import.

If a project  consists of multiple imported files that have different sample rates, then resampling is *unavoidable*. It's just a question of "when".

Steve
 



Gale


> The vast majority of Audacity users use Audacity for the purpose for which
> it was designed - for recording and editing.

> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within
>> > tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any
>> > imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this simplify
>> > things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or dragging
>> > clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
>> > Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
>> > There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an
>> > 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with terabyte
>> > drives?
>> > — Bill
>> >
>> >> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have
>> >>> different
>> >>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think the
>> >>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>> >>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a
>> >>> very
>> >>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that
>> >> happens
>> >> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of
>> >>> 'Project
>> >>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks have
>> >>> different rates.
>> >>
>> >> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
>> >> be rendering to?
>> >>
>> >>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and
>> >>> information
>> >>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you
>> >>> upgrade/downgrade
>> >>> all to the same rate.
>> >>
>> >> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000' and
>> >>> the bar widen if so)
>> >>>
>> >>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>> >>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>> >>>
>> >>> --James.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>> >>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused
>> >>>> about
>> >>>> the sample rate of exports.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project
>> >>>> would
>> >>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the
>> >>>> project
>> >>>> sample rate that governs.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> PRL
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Gale
Administrator
On 16 May 2017 at 20:40, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 20:18, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 09:30, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 02:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
>> >> dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.
>> >>
>> >> As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to look
>> >> at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have looked
>> >> and listened.
>> >
>> >
>> > If we want to properly support the "view /  play only" people, then we
>> > should support "view / play only" properly.
>> > We could do that by having a special "view / play mode", or even an
>> > "Audacity Player App".
>>
>> Fine. Will it ever happen?
>
>
> No idea. It probably depends on whether anyone is sufficiently motivated to
> develop it, but in the meantime, we shouldn't penalize the majority of users
> that want to use Audacity for its designed purpose, just because a minority
> don't.

That minority is however added to by some who do edit as intended
but still want to avoid the "Save changes?" prompt. For example,
those who already exported the whole project. If it were possible
to handle that not too unsafely, "player mode" may not be needed.

Anyway, with regards to resampling I think users have most patience
at export time and least at import time.



Gale

>> > Also, people that are using Audacity only for view / play, will only be
>> > importing one track into the project
>>
>> I don't think that is a safe assumption at all, though it may well be
>> generally true. We've heard of people comparing spectrum plots
>> of multiple files then bemoaning seeing "Save changes?" when
>> they quit.
>>
>>
>>
>> > so resampling need not be an issue - the Project Rate can just be set
>> > to match the imported data.
>>
>> Do I assume then you agree that we don't need to resample on import?
>
>
> I agree that if the project consists of only one imported file there is no
> need to resample on import.
>
> If a project  consists of multiple imported files that have different sample
> rates, then resampling is *unavoidable*. It's just a question of "when".
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> > The vast majority of Audacity users use Audacity for the purpose for
>> > which
>> > it was designed - for recording and editing.
>>
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >> On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within
>> >> > tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any
>> >> > imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this
>> >> > simplify
>> >> > things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or
>> >> > dragging
>> >> > clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
>> >> > Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
>> >> > There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an
>> >> > 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with
>> >> > terabyte
>> >> > drives?
>> >> > — Bill
>> >> >
>> >> >> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have
>> >> >>> different
>> >> >>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>> >> >>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a
>> >> >>> very
>> >> >>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that
>> >> >> happens
>> >> >> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of
>> >> >>> 'Project
>> >> >>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks
>> >> >>> have
>> >> >>> different rates.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
>> >> >> be rendering to?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and
>> >> >>> information
>> >> >>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you
>> >> >>> upgrade/downgrade
>> >> >>> all to the same rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gale
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000'
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>> the bar widen if so)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>> >> >>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --James.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>> >> >>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused
>> >> >>>> about
>> >> >>>> the sample rate of exports.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project
>> >> >>>> would
>> >> >>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the
>> >> >>>> project
>> >> >>>> sample rate that governs.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> PRL
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Stevethefiddle


On 18 May 2017 at 01:36, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 May 2017 at 20:40, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 20:18, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 09:30, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 02:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
>> >> dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.
>> >>
>> >> As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to look
>> >> at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have looked
>> >> and listened.
>> >
>> >
>> > If we want to properly support the "view /  play only" people, then we
>> > should support "view / play only" properly.
>> > We could do that by having a special "view / play mode", or even an
>> > "Audacity Player App".
>>
>> Fine. Will it ever happen?
>
>
> No idea. It probably depends on whether anyone is sufficiently motivated to
> develop it, but in the meantime, we shouldn't penalize the majority of users
> that want to use Audacity for its designed purpose, just because a minority
> don't.

That minority is however added to by some who do edit as intended
but still want to avoid the "Save changes?" prompt. For example,
those who already exported the whole project. If it were possible
to handle that not too unsafely,

That depends on what we mean by "not too unsafely". If they export in a lossy format and close without saving, then the lossless version is gone forever.

Steve
 
"player mode" may not be needed.

Anyway, with regards to resampling I think users have most patience
at export time and least at import time.



Gale

>> > Also, people that are using Audacity only for view / play, will only be
>> > importing one track into the project
>>
>> I don't think that is a safe assumption at all, though it may well be
>> generally true. We've heard of people comparing spectrum plots
>> of multiple files then bemoaning seeing "Save changes?" when
>> they quit.
>>
>>
>>
>> > so resampling need not be an issue - the Project Rate can just be set
>> > to match the imported data.
>>
>> Do I assume then you agree that we don't need to resample on import?
>
>
> I agree that if the project consists of only one imported file there is no
> need to resample on import.
>
> If a project  consists of multiple imported files that have different sample
> rates, then resampling is *unavoidable*. It's just a question of "when".
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> > The vast majority of Audacity users use Audacity for the purpose for
>> > which
>> > it was designed - for recording and editing.
>>
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >> On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within
>> >> > tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample any
>> >> > imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this
>> >> > simplify
>> >> > things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or
>> >> > dragging
>> >> > clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
>> >> > Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on import?
>> >> > There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling an
>> >> > 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with
>> >> > terabyte
>> >> > drives?
>> >> > — Bill
>> >> >
>> >> >> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have
>> >> >>> different
>> >> >>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I think
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips is
>> >> >>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project is a
>> >> >>> very
>> >> >>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file that
>> >> >> happens
>> >> >> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of
>> >> >>> 'Project
>> >> >>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF tracks
>> >> >>> have
>> >> >>> different rates.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you will
>> >> >> be rendering to?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and
>> >> >>> information
>> >> >>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you
>> >> >>> upgrade/downgrade
>> >> >>> all to the same rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gale
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show '44100-96000'
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>> the bar widen if so)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track, then
>> >> >>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --James.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>> >> >>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was confused
>> >> >>>> about
>> >> >>>> the sample rate of exports.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the project
>> >> >>>> would
>> >> >>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the
>> >> >>>> project
>> >> >>>> sample rate that governs.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> PRL
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Gale
Administrator
On 18 May 2017 at 02:24, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 18 May 2017 at 01:36, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 20:40, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 20:18, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 16 May 2017 at 09:30, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 16 May 2017 at 02:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
>> >> >> dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to
>> >> >> look
>> >> >> at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have
>> >> >> looked
>> >> >> and listened.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > If we want to properly support the "view /  play only" people, then
>> >> > we
>> >> > should support "view / play only" properly.
>> >> > We could do that by having a special "view / play mode", or even an
>> >> > "Audacity Player App".
>> >>
>> >> Fine. Will it ever happen?
>> >
>> >
>> > No idea. It probably depends on whether anyone is sufficiently motivated
>> > to
>> > develop it, but in the meantime, we shouldn't penalize the majority of
>> > users
>> > that want to use Audacity for its designed purpose, just because a
>> > minority
>> > don't.
>>
>> That minority is however added to by some who do edit as intended
>> but still want to avoid the "Save changes?" prompt. For example,
>> those who already exported the whole project. If it were possible
>> to handle that not too unsafely,
>
>
> That depends on what we mean by "not too unsafely". If they export in a
> lossy format and close without saving, then the lossless version is gone
> forever.

If user finds the setting to turn the nag off they must be trusted with
it. Then we get into questions if we should make the setting harder
to find than "usual".

A zany idea occurred to me that could make it safer for the setting
to have "usual" discoverability. If the nag is turned off, Save changes?
displays a timer. If the user does not save or cancel before the timer
expires, the dialogue closes itself without saving changes.

The timeout could be user-configurable. I would set it to 0 (no dialogue
appears). If a noob changes it from default to 0, I have no sympathy.


Gale



>> "player mode" may not be needed.
>>
>> Anyway, with regards to resampling I think users have most patience
>> at export time and least at import time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> >> > Also, people that are using Audacity only for view / play, will only
>> >> > be
>> >> > importing one track into the project
>> >>
>> >> I don't think that is a safe assumption at all, though it may well be
>> >> generally true. We've heard of people comparing spectrum plots
>> >> of multiple files then bemoaning seeing "Save changes?" when
>> >> they quit.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > so resampling need not be an issue - the Project Rate can just be set
>> >> > to match the imported data.
>> >>
>> >> Do I assume then you agree that we don't need to resample on import?
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree that if the project consists of only one imported file there is
>> > no
>> > need to resample on import.
>> >
>> > If a project  consists of multiple imported files that have different
>> > sample
>> > rates, then resampling is *unavoidable*. It's just a question of "when".
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > The vast majority of Audacity users use Audacity for the purpose for
>> >> > which
>> >> > it was designed - for recording and editing.
>> >>
>> >> > Steve
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gale
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> > Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within
>> >> >> > tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample
>> >> >> > any
>> >> >> > imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this
>> >> >> > simplify
>> >> >> > things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or
>> >> >> > dragging
>> >> >> > clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
>> >> >> > Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on
>> >> >> > import?
>> >> >> > There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling
>> >> >> > an
>> >> >> > 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with
>> >> >> > terabyte
>> >> >> > drives?
>> >> >> > — Bill
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have
>> >> >> >>> different
>> >> >> >>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I
>> >> >> >>> think
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips
>> >> >> >>> is
>> >> >> >>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project
>> >> >> >>> is a
>> >> >> >>> very
>> >> >> >>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample
>> >> >> >>> rate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> happens
>> >> >> >> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample
>> >> >> >> rate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of
>> >> >> >>> 'Project
>> >> >> >>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF
>> >> >> >>> tracks
>> >> >> >>> have
>> >> >> >>> different rates.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you
>> >> >> >> will
>> >> >> >> be rendering to?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and
>> >> >> >>> information
>> >> >> >>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you
>> >> >> >>> upgrade/downgrade
>> >> >> >>> all to the same rate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Gale
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show
>> >> >> >>> '44100-96000'
>> >> >> >>> and
>> >> >> >>> the bar widen if so)
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track,
>> >> >> >>> then
>> >> >> >>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> --James.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was
>> >> >> >>>> confused
>> >> >> >>>> about
>> >> >> >>>> the sample rate of exports.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the
>> >> >> >>>> project
>> >> >> >>>> would
>> >> >> >>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the
>> >> >> >>>> project
>> >> >> >>>> sample rate that governs.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> PRL
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Confusions about export sample rate

Stevethefiddle


On 18 May 2017 at 14:33, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 18 May 2017 at 02:24, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 18 May 2017 at 01:36, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 20:40, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 20:18, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 16 May 2017 at 09:30, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 16 May 2017 at 02:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think resample on import would slow up imports too much and mean
>> >> >> dilution of the (initial) speed benefit of On-Demand Loading.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As you know, there are plenty of people who only use Audacity to
>> >> >> look
>> >> >> at and listen to files, and discard changes as soon as they have
>> >> >> looked
>> >> >> and listened.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > If we want to properly support the "view /  play only" people, then
>> >> > we
>> >> > should support "view / play only" properly.
>> >> > We could do that by having a special "view / play mode", or even an
>> >> > "Audacity Player App".
>> >>
>> >> Fine. Will it ever happen?
>> >
>> >
>> > No idea. It probably depends on whether anyone is sufficiently motivated
>> > to
>> > develop it, but in the meantime, we shouldn't penalize the majority of
>> > users
>> > that want to use Audacity for its designed purpose, just because a
>> > minority
>> > don't.
>>
>> That minority is however added to by some who do edit as intended
>> but still want to avoid the "Save changes?" prompt. For example,
>> those who already exported the whole project. If it were possible
>> to handle that not too unsafely,
>
>
> That depends on what we mean by "not too unsafely". If they export in a
> lossy format and close without saving, then the lossless version is gone
> forever.

If user finds the setting to turn the nag off they must be trusted with
it. Then we get into questions if we should make the setting harder
to find than "usual".

Generally I don't have a lot of sympathy for users that have been warned and then shoot themselves in the foot, but I'd be cautious about handing someone a gun that does not have a safety catch enabled. Some gun owners disable the safety catch. Some gun owners accidentally shoot themselves. I see clicking the "don't save" button like flicking the safety catch before firing. In 10+ years using Audacity, I've avoided shooting myself - at least, not in this way ;-)

Steve
 

A zany idea occurred to me that could make it safer for the setting
to have "usual" discoverability. If the nag is turned off, Save changes?
displays a timer. If the user does not save or cancel before the timer
expires, the dialogue closes itself without saving changes.

The timeout could be user-configurable. I would set it to 0 (no dialogue
appears). If a noob changes it from default to 0, I have no sympathy.


Gale



>> "player mode" may not be needed.
>>
>> Anyway, with regards to resampling I think users have most patience
>> at export time and least at import time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> >> > Also, people that are using Audacity only for view / play, will only
>> >> > be
>> >> > importing one track into the project
>> >>
>> >> I don't think that is a safe assumption at all, though it may well be
>> >> generally true. We've heard of people comparing spectrum plots
>> >> of multiple files then bemoaning seeing "Save changes?" when
>> >> they quit.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > so resampling need not be an issue - the Project Rate can just be set
>> >> > to match the imported data.
>> >>
>> >> Do I assume then you agree that we don't need to resample on import?
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree that if the project consists of only one imported file there is
>> > no
>> > need to resample on import.
>> >
>> > If a project  consists of multiple imported files that have different
>> > sample
>> > rates, then resampling is *unavoidable*. It's just a question of "when".
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > The vast majority of Audacity users use Audacity for the purpose for
>> >> > which
>> >> > it was designed - for recording and editing.
>> >>
>> >> > Steve
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gale
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 14 May 2017 at 22:26, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> > Can someone tell me again why we support tracks (and clips within
>> >> >> > tracks?) at different sample rates and formats? Why not resample
>> >> >> > any
>> >> >> > imported file to the project sample rate and format? Wouldn’t this
>> >> >> > simplify
>> >> >> > things enormously (such as making a selection across tracks, or
>> >> >> > dragging
>> >> >> > clips between tracks, that could have different sample rates)?
>> >> >> > Everything has to be resampled on export, so why not do it on
>> >> >> > import?
>> >> >> > There would certainly be a saving of disk space by not resampling
>> >> >> > an
>> >> >> > 8,000 Hz sample-rate file, but is that really a concern now with
>> >> >> > terabyte
>> >> >> > drives?
>> >> >> > — Bill
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On 2017/05/14, at 4:49 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On 14 May 2017 at 12:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> If you move a clip back and forth between two tracks that have
>> >> >> >>> different
>> >> >> >>> sample rates, the clip gets resampled behind the scenes.  I
>> >> >> >>> think
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> fact that tracks can have different sample rates but not clips
>> >> >> >>> is
>> >> >> >>> something that very few users will be aware of.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I think having tracks with different sample rates in a project
>> >> >> >>> is a
>> >> >> >>> very
>> >> >> >>> special case.  99% of users will stay all within one sample
>> >> >> >>> rate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I don't think it is that rare. Just record, then import a file
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> happens
>> >> >> >> to be at another sample rate than your Audacity default sample
>> >> >> >> rate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> One possible user interface change is to change the display of
>> >> >> >>> 'Project
>> >> >> >>> Rate' so that it becomes a button with the word 'Mixed' IF
>> >> >> >>> tracks
>> >> >> >>> have
>> >> >> >>> different rates.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> But then if you Mix and Render, how do you know what rate you
>> >> >> >> will
>> >> >> >> be rendering to?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Clicking on 'Mixed' then shows a dialog with more options, and
>> >> >> >>> information
>> >> >> >>> - highest rate, lowest rate, and buttons that let you
>> >> >> >>> upgrade/downgrade
>> >> >> >>> all to the same rate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Isn't that upgrade/downgrade what Tracks > Resample is for?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Gale
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> (Rather than the word 'Mixed', it could instead show
>> >> >> >>> '44100-96000'
>> >> >> >>> and
>> >> >> >>> the bar widen if so)
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> In your user's case, if they resample the one and only track,
>> >> >> >>> then
>> >> >> >>> project rate could then simply follow that change.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> --James.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On 5/13/2017 5:04 PM, Paul Licameli wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> I just had a long online conversation with a user who was
>> >> >> >>>> confused
>> >> >> >>>> about
>> >> >> >>>> the sample rate of exports.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> The expectation was that resampling the sole track in the
>> >> >> >>>> project
>> >> >> >>>> would
>> >> >> >>>> determine the rate in the exported file, but in fact it is the
>> >> >> >>>> project
>> >> >> >>>> sample rate that governs.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Could we do anything to make this less confusing?  Suggestions?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Adding a drop-down in the dialog that chooses the output file?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> PRL
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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