Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

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Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
By and large I find myself liking the new menu structure.  I like the shorter menus
with concise sub-menus segmenting stuff into sensible compartments.
The one menu that now stcks out like a sore thumb (by default anyway) is the Effects menu.

1)  where is the old File>Check Dependencies  ?

2) Edit Menu
I like Edit>Remove Audio replacing Edit>Remove Special
I like the Edit>Metadata...
I like the Edit>Labels sub-menu

3) View Menu
I like the View>Zoom and View>Track Size with their sub-menus

4) Transport Menu
I like the Play Menu
The Record Menu is buggy right now (reported elsewhere)
I like the Skip To sub-menu
I like the Cursor To sub-menu
I like the Play Region>Lock/Unlock (it interacts properly with the Timeline eqivalents)
I like the Transport Options
Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see where else it would sensibly go.

5) Tracks Menu
I like the Mix sub-menu
I like the Mute/Unmute sub-menu
I like the Align Tracks sub-menu
I like the Edit Labels stuff having moved from Tracks menu to Edit menu

6) Help
I like the restructured Help menu


So now to what I don't like (or have reservations about)

7) File menu

a) I don't really like the Save Other entry - the "other" does not imply audio
I would prefer it to say Save Audio (but this has problems for the no-audio
entries - but read on ... )

b) In fact as a purist I really don't lke Save Audio or Save Other - I think it
should be Export Audio (as that "does what it says on the tin")

c) I don't know how to deal with the Export Labels - though a File>Export
would deal with that - but would not indicate the "audio" content of the sub-menu

d) I would suggest a File>Save Project menu entry with a sub-menu:
i) Save
ii) Save Project As...
iii) Save Compressed Copy of Project

e) We should also have an Export as AAC in the Export sub-menu - it is a
commonly used export, certainly for Mac users but also for many Windows
users (who use iTunes and iPods).

f) "Export as WAV" duplicates "Export Audio" - but may be useful nonetheless.

g) MIDI stuff would be better off as its own menu/sub-menu with for now just the
Import MIDI and Export MIDI.  Though I'm guessing that as work now is underway
again on MIDI that we may yet end up with some other MIDI sub-menu entries.

Phew <wipes brow>

Peter.

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
I just ran this all past my "mystery shopper"

Her general opinion was *very* positive, liking the compacter meus and sub-menus.

Her initial response was "Where's the Exports?"  and then after some pondering
"Is that what the Save Other does" - so althogh "Save Other" may be good for new
users it may well confuse many of our existing millions of users (at least for a while).


8) In the File>Save Other (or Export or Export Audio if we retitle as in 7 avove)

I would suggest that
a) we move the Export Audio to the top of the list (as the general purpose tool),

b) with Export as <audio file format> we remove the "Save as Type" field from the
dialog box, thus restricting it to the audio format choice the user makes in their
manu selection - leaving "Export Audio" as the only general purpose export.

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 21 March 2017 at 13:06, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> By and large I find myself liking the new menu structure.  I like the
> shorter menus
> with concise sub-menus segmenting stuff into sensible compartments.
> The one menu that now stcks out like a sore thumb (by default anyway) is the
> Effects menu.
>
> 1)  where is the old File>Check Dependencies  ?

"Help > Diagnostics > Check Dependencies"

This is a bit "hidden", but on the other hand it is much harder to
'accidentally' create a project with dependencies.
This change makes some error messages wrong, such as the "File
missing" error message.

>
> 2) Edit Menu
> I like Edit>Remove Audio replacing Edit>Remove Special
> I like the Edit>Metadata...
> I like the Edit>Labels sub-menu
>
> 3) View Menu
> I like the View>Zoom and View>Track Size with their sub-menus
>
> 4) Transport Menu
> I like the Play Menu
> The Record Menu is buggy right now (reported elsewhere)
> I like the Skip To sub-menu

This looks a bit weird to me.
Skip to track start / track end, work much like the "Cursor to"
commands (they move the play/edit/paste position)
Skip to selection start / selection end, is different in that it only
changes the view.

> I like the Cursor To sub-menu

As above, I think that "Skip to track start / track end" could be
merged into this menu.

> I like the Play Region>Lock/Unlock (it interacts properly with the Timeline
> eqivalents)
> I like the Transport Options
> Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see
> where else it would sensibly go.

In the device toolbar?

>
> 5) Tracks Menu
> I like the Mix sub-menu

I think a new feature would be nice here: the ability to render a
selection in situ.
This could tie in with options to export tracks with/without leading silence.

> I like the Mute/Unmute sub-menu

Perhaps useful to have more options here so as to make it easier to
toggle single and multiple tracks and make the key bindings Shift+S /
Shift+U more discoverable.

> I like the Align Tracks sub-menu
> I like the Edit Labels stuff having moved from Tracks menu to Edit menu
>
> 6) Help
> I like the restructured Help menu
>
>
> So now to what I don't like (or have reservations about)
>
> 7) File menu
>
> a) I don't really like the Save Other entry - the "other" does not imply
> audio
> I would prefer it to say Save Audio (but this has problems for the no-audio
> entries - but read on ... )
>
> b) In fact as a purist I really don't lke Save Audio or Save Other - I think
> it
> should be Export Audio (as that "does what it says on the tin")

I can live with this.
1) It does say "Export" inside the menu.
2) An exported file IS "saved" to disk.
3) The less cluttered menu makes it far easier to find the export commands.

>
> c) I don't know how to deal with the Export Labels - though a File>Export
> would deal with that - but would not indicate the "audio" content of the
> sub-menu
>
> d) I would suggest a File>Save Project menu entry with a sub-menu:
> i) Save
> ii) Save Project As...
> iii) Save Compressed Copy of Project
>
> e) We should also have an Export as AAC in the Export sub-menu - it is a
> commonly used export, certainly for Mac users but also for many Windows
> users (who use iTunes and iPods).

A similar argument could be given for FLAC and / or WMA and / or
whatever your favourite format.

>
> f) "Export as WAV" duplicates "Export Audio" - but may be useful
> nonetheless.

Export as MP3 also duplicates "Export Audio", as does "Export OGG",
and as would Export as AIFF if we add that option.
I would be more inclined to go the other way and just have "Export
Audio", though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).

Steve

>
> g) MIDI stuff would be better off as its own menu/sub-menu with for now just
> the
> Import MIDI and Export MIDI.  Though I'm guessing that as work now is
> underway
> again on MIDI that we may yet end up with some other MIDI sub-menu entries.
>
> Phew <wipes brow>
>
> Peter.
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 21 March 2017 at 14:17, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just ran this all past my "mystery shopper"
>
> Her general opinion was *very* positive, liking the compacter meus and
> sub-menus.
>
> Her initial response was "Where's the Exports?"  and then after some
> pondering
> "Is that what the Save Other does" - so althogh "Save Other" may be good for
> new
> users it may well confuse many of our existing millions of users (at least
> for a while).

A nice thing about the short menu is that there are very few places to
look. "Save Other" is about the only other reasonably place to look -
and there it is.

I think this works because the menu is short. If you want to save
anything that isn't a project, there's just one place to look.

Steve

>
>
> 8) In the File>Save Other (or Export or Export Audio if we retitle as in 7
> avove)
>
> I would suggest that
> a) we move the Export Audio to the top of the list (as the general purpose
> tool),
>
> b) with Export as <audio file format> we remove the "Save as Type" field
> from the
> dialog box, thus restricting it to the audio format choice the user makes in
> their
> manu selection - leaving "Export Audio" as the only general purpose export.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:

> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
that.

A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.

If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
unlike previously.

--James.




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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
Hi

I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.

A few adhoc thoughts:

File Menu
- "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
already in the "Save Other" menu.
- I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
in future)
It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
"File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
not enough discoverable.

Edit Menu
- Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.

Could look something like this:

Select
   All (Ctrl-a)
   Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
   Region...
   Tracks...
   Spectral

[*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]

For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
above with "Select->All".
I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.


Transport Menu
- I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
"Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
cursor is moved as well.

OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit out-of-the-box.

Cheers
Robert

2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:

> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>
>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
> that.
>
> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>
> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
> unlike previously.
>
> --James.
>
>
>
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
Ps. I forgot to mention:
Tracks->Mix

A bit too much mixing there. ;)
I would let it drop the second time.

Mix (and Render?)
   Stereo Down to Mono
   Down to Single Track
   Down to New Track

Perhaps omitting down as well.

Robert

2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:

> Hi
>
> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>
> A few adhoc thoughts:
>
> File Menu
> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
> already in the "Save Other" menu.
> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
> in future)
> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
> not enough discoverable.
>
> Edit Menu
> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>
> Could look something like this:
>
> Select
>    All (Ctrl-a)
>    Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>    Region...
>    Tracks...
>    Spectral
>
> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>
> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
> above with "Select->All".
> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>
>
> Transport Menu
> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
> cursor is moved as well.
>
> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit out-of-the-box.
>
> Cheers
> Robert
>
> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>
>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
>> that.
>>
>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>
>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
>> unlike previously.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

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Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

James Crook
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>> Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see
>> where else it would sensibly go.
> In the device toolbar?
Is Rescan always reasonably fast?  if so, could we do it whenever the
user clicks on the device toolbar microphone or speaker option? That way
we would not need it as a separate option.  [We would need to change the
message in the device toolbar when no devices found to something like
'scan for devices'.]

--James.


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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Gale
Administrator
On 21 March 2017 at 23:02, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>> Peter wrote:
>>> Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see
>>> where else it would sensibly go.
>> In the device toolbar?
> Is Rescan always reasonably fast?  if so, could we do it whenever the
> user clicks on the device toolbar microphone or speaker option?

And also when changing host, which is always slower than changing
device?

> That way we would not need it as a separate option.  [We would need to change the
> message in the device toolbar when no devices found to something like
> 'scan for devices'.]

I find the Rescan slow (5 - 6 seconds) on Windows if one or more USB 1.1
devices are newly (or even already) connected. 2 seconds otherwise. Don't
know if that is typical, but I would notice the change.

I think users who don't expect to have to rescan might find a small square
Device Toolbar button with refresh icon and tooltip, probably to left of "Host",
more discoverable. But we already have a loop icon and Undo icon which
would look similar, we would have to think what type of refresh control we
want in Devices Preferences, and VI users may want the menu item anyway.

On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.


Gale

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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Peter Sampson-2
Gale wrote:
>On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
>so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.

On all three of my machines the "Rescan Audio Devices" is almost instantaneous.
Including on my ancient underpowered XP desktop.

It is also instantaneous on my wife's undersized and underpowred (for Audacity
anyway) little Samsun notebook.  This is by far the slowest of the six (live)
computers in our house.


Therefore I would strongly vote +1 for changing this to be an automated procedure
whenever the user accesses the Device Toolbar.


This would avoid unnecessary GUI clutter of the command and possible extra button(s).

It would also save time on the Forum responses where, now, we need to tell them to
rescan,especially (and mainly) for USB devices.

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Peter Sampson-2
Oh and by the way those tests were done:

a) without a USB device (Edirol UA-1EX) connected
b) with the USB device newly connected
c) with the USB device newly disconnected

In all 3 use cases on all 4 machines the rescon was almost instantaneous.

Peter

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Re: Rescan

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
Gale wrote:
> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.

Thanks for the figures.  2 seconds is already too long for my idea to
work, and 5s is way too long.  So I agree with you.

--James.


On 3/22/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> On 21 March 2017 at 23:02, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>> Peter wrote:
>>>> Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see
>>>> where else it would sensibly go.
>>> In the device toolbar?
>> Is Rescan always reasonably fast?  if so, could we do it whenever the
>> user clicks on the device toolbar microphone or speaker option?
> And also when changing host, which is always slower than changing
> device?
>
>> That way we would not need it as a separate option.  [We would need to change the
>> message in the device toolbar when no devices found to something like
>> 'scan for devices'.]
> I find the Rescan slow (5 - 6 seconds) on Windows if one or more USB 1.1
> devices are newly (or even already) connected. 2 seconds otherwise. Don't
> know if that is typical, but I would notice the change.
>
> I think users who don't expect to have to rescan might find a small square
> Device Toolbar button with refresh icon and tooltip, probably to left of "Host",
> more discoverable. But we already have a loop icon and Undo icon which
> would look similar, we would have to think what type of refresh control we
> want in Devices Preferences, and VI users may want the menu item anyway.
>
> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>
>
> Gale
>


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Re: Rescan

Peter Sampson-2
As I pointed out in a parallel thread on all the active computers in our house
including my wife's very slow small (and underpowered for Audacity) the
rescan even with a nwly plugged in USB device is almaost instaneous,
unmeasurably so.

Peter

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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
The delay seems to be Windows-specific. Rescan is near enough
instantaneous - even with a USB device connected - on my
painfully-slow Ubuntu 14.04 netbook. It's also near-instantaneous
on my Sierra machine.

It looks like rescan for me is 1 to 3 seconds on XP rather than
2 to 6 seconds as on Windows 10 and Windows 7. I've tried an Ion
USB turntable, iMic and "Trust" USB Sound Card with identical
results.

Remember too that I and some who complain on the Forum have
to wait 40 seconds or so for Audacity to launch on Windows (again
this is less bad on XP - about 15 seconds).  I understand this
slowness is tied in with device interrogation. Do I assume your
Audacity launch is near immediate, Peter?

It is possible that extra security I have installed on Windows 7 and
10 increases this delay. Obviously I have some added security
on XP too (EMET, to be precise).

No security I have temporarily disabled on Windows 7 or 10 has
substantially reduced the delay.



Gale


On 22 March 2017 at 10:03, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gale wrote:
>>On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>>I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug
>> fixes
>>so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>
> On all three of my machines the "Rescan Audio Devices" is almost
> instantaneous.
> Including on my ancient underpowered XP desktop.
>
> It is also instantaneous on my wife's undersized and underpowred (for
> Audacity
> anyway) little Samsun notebook.  This is by far the slowest of the six
> (live)
> computers in our house.
>
>
> Therefore I would strongly vote +1 for changing this to be an automated
> procedure
> whenever the user accesses the Device Toolbar.
>
>
> This would avoid unnecessary GUI clutter of the command and possible extra
> button(s).
>
> It would also save time on the Forum responses where, now, we need to tell
> them to
> rescan,especially (and mainly) for USB devices.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.
>
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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Peter Sampson-2
Gale wrote:
>Do I assume your Audacity launch is near immediate, Peter?

Mostly yes - but curiously not always

occasionally it can take a fair time - do you want me to gather data on this?

Peter

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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Gale
Administrator
On 22 March 2017 at 19:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Gale wrote:
>>Do I assume your Audacity launch is near immediate, Peter?
>
> Mostly yes - but curiously not always
>
> occasionally it can take a fair time - do you want me to gather data on
> this?
>
> Peter

OK if you can give a range of times over say 10 or 12 launches - just
in your normal course of operation.

My main theory was that my slow rescan on Windows was related to
slow launch times of Audacity.



Gale

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Re: Rescan

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 22 March 2017 at 10:43, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Gale wrote:
>> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
>> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>
> Thanks for the figures.  2 seconds is already too long for my idea to
> work, and 5s is way too long.  So I agree with you.
>
> --James.

I later reported better (near-instantaneous) figures for Linux and Mac.

Should the slowest response set the decision on this? Do I assume
the idea would be that that by the time the menu opened, the list
would have been updated?


Gale

> On 3/22/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> On 21 March 2017 at 23:02, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>> Peter wrote:
>>>>> Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see
>>>>> where else it would sensibly go.
>>>> In the device toolbar?
>>> Is Rescan always reasonably fast?  if so, could we do it whenever the
>>> user clicks on the device toolbar microphone or speaker option?
>> And also when changing host, which is always slower than changing
>> device?
>>
>>> That way we would not need it as a separate option.  [We would need to change the
>>> message in the device toolbar when no devices found to something like
>>> 'scan for devices'.]
>> I find the Rescan slow (5 - 6 seconds) on Windows if one or more USB 1.1
>> devices are newly (or even already) connected. 2 seconds otherwise. Don't
>> know if that is typical, but I would notice the change.
>>
>> I think users who don't expect to have to rescan might find a small square
>> Device Toolbar button with refresh icon and tooltip, probably to left of "Host",
>> more discoverable. But we already have a loop icon and Undo icon which
>> would look similar, we would have to think what type of refresh control we
>> want in Devices Preferences, and VI users may want the menu item anyway.
>>
>> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
>> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Gale
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In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
"Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"

Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?

"Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport. Six of the eight
commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
also be greyed out.

So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.

I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
don't.


Thanks,


Gale


On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ps. I forgot to mention:
> Tracks->Mix
>
> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
> I would let it drop the second time.
>
> Mix (and Render?)
>    Stereo Down to Mono
>    Down to Single Track
>    Down to New Track
>
> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>
> Robert
>
> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi
>>
>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>
>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>
>> File Menu
>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
>> in future)
>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
>> not enough discoverable.
>>
>> Edit Menu
>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>>
>> Could look something like this:
>>
>> Select
>>    All (Ctrl-a)
>>    Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>    Region...
>>    Tracks...
>>    Spectral
>>
>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>
>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
>> above with "Select->All".
>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>
>>
>> Transport Menu
>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
>> cursor is moved as well.
>>
>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit out-of-the-box.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>
>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
>>> that.
>>>
>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>
>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
>>> unlike previously.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
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>>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-23 7:28 GMT+01:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
> "Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"
>
> Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?
>
> "Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport. Six of the eight
> commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
> and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
> can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
> also be greyed out.

Those latter two commands do belong into the view menu, do they not?

>
> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.
>
With a sub menu "Point" in addition to those I indicated before
(Region, Tracks...)?

*important*
The command Set/Expand Left Selection" (not in a menu, shortcut
presumably '[') moves the edit cursor to the left on each press, the
amount is depending on the zoom factor.
2.2.0 Alpha from yesterday.

Robert


> I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
> put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
> don't.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ps. I forgot to mention:
>> Tracks->Mix
>>
>> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
>> I would let it drop the second time.
>>
>> Mix (and Render?)
>>    Stereo Down to Mono
>>    Down to Single Track
>>    Down to New Track
>>
>> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>>
>>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>>
>>> File Menu
>>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
>>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
>>> in future)
>>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
>>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
>>> not enough discoverable.
>>>
>>> Edit Menu
>>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
>>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>>>
>>> Could look something like this:
>>>
>>> Select
>>>    All (Ctrl-a)
>>>    Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>>    Region...
>>>    Tracks...
>>>    Spectral
>>>
>>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
>>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
>>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>>
>>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
>>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
>>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
>>> above with "Select->All".
>>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>>
>>>
>>> Transport Menu
>>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
>>> cursor is moved as well.
>>>
>>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit
>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>>
>>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
>>>> unlike previously.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: Rescan

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 3/23/2017 4:10 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> On 22 March 2017 at 10:43, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Gale wrote:
>>> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>>> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
>>> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>> Thanks for the figures.  2 seconds is already too long for my idea to
>> work, and 5s is way too long.  So I agree with you.
>>
>> --James.
> I later reported better (near-instantaneous) figures for Linux and Mac.
>
> Should the slowest response set the decision on this?
Yes.
A 5s wait when you click on the device bar would be unacceptable, in my
opinion.  It is acceptable in the context of a requested rescan.

> Do I assume the idea would be that that by the time the menu opened, the list would have been updated?
Yes.  That was my intention.

The slow start of Audacity might indeed be 'the same' issue as the slow
rescan.
Further diagnosis of what PortAudio is doing might reveal the cause -
e.g. if we put some more logging in portaudio.  We might even be able to
solve that.  Another approach, which I hadn't thought of before, is that
we might be able to do the scanning in another thread.  This might
entail some progress dialog to let the user know that something is going
on, but it would also mean faster start up, and that the device toolbar
could respond 'immediately' (though it might need an item 'more...' or
some similar name to indicate that there might be new devices.

Reluctant to do the 'other thread', as it is complicated, but trying out
more logging is worth doing for 2.2.0, IMO.


>
>
> Gale
>
>> On 3/22/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> On 21 March 2017 at 23:02, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>> Peter wrote:
>>>>>> Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see
>>>>>> where else it would sensibly go.
>>>>> In the device toolbar?
>>>> Is Rescan always reasonably fast?  if so, could we do it whenever the
>>>> user clicks on the device toolbar microphone or speaker option?
>>> And also when changing host, which is always slower than changing
>>> device?
>>>
>>>> That way we would not need it as a separate option.  [We would need to change the
>>>> message in the device toolbar when no devices found to something like
>>>> 'scan for devices'.]
>>> I find the Rescan slow (5 - 6 seconds) on Windows if one or more USB 1.1
>>> devices are newly (or even already) connected. 2 seconds otherwise. Don't
>>> know if that is typical, but I would notice the change.
>>>
>>> I think users who don't expect to have to rescan might find a small square
>>> Device Toolbar button with refresh icon and tooltip, probably to left of "Host",
>>> more discoverable. But we already have a loop icon and Undo icon which
>>> would look similar, we would have to think what type of refresh control we
>>> want in Devices Preferences, and VI users may want the menu item anyway.
>>>
>>> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>>> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
>>> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>
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