Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
Gale wrote:
> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.

Another plus side to this would be to give more prominence to selection.

We know from past experience that new users in particular overlokk the need
for selection before acting - that is why we introduced the "Select all if none
selected" in the first place - and why we discussed the potential "friendly
educational message" last year - resulting in this proposal:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands


So I think I would broadly welcome a new "Select" menu - I beieve it would
aid "discoverability" of the importance and usefulness of selection.

And by grouping all the selection commands in one focussed menu the
various forms of selction would be perhaps more likely to be explored
by users.

Peter


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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
Robert,

Could you collate the menu rearrangement feedback, and put the outcomes
in a shared document or wiki page?

I think there is a lot of interest in the new select menu, and collating
the ideas and asking Steve to implement it, because he has commit
rights, would be the way forward on it.  Steve would choose the precise
details for the initial version of the select menu on the 'doer-decides'
principle.

I'd like to see three sections:
1 - The select menu proposal
2 - Collation of proposals for the other changes that take minimal
coding effort, e.g. removing redundant items, shorter wording in sub
menus.  We probably need to agree a principle/guideline as to when to
repeat a word, like Mix or Save, and when not.  That will give us
consistency.
3 - Harder to do changes that entail new code.

--James.



On 3/23/2017 6:59 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:

> 2017-03-23 7:28 GMT+01:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>> "Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"
>>
>> Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?
>>
>> "Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport. Six of the eight
>> commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
>> and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
>> can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
>> also be greyed out.
> Those latter two commands do belong into the view menu, do they not?
>
>> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.
>>
> With a sub menu "Point" in addition to those I indicated before
> (Region, Tracks...)?
>
> *important*
> The command Set/Expand Left Selection" (not in a menu, shortcut
> presumably '[') moves the edit cursor to the left on each press, the
> amount is depending on the zoom factor.
> 2.2.0 Alpha from yesterday.
>
> Robert
>
>
>> I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
>> put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
>> don't.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Ps. I forgot to mention:
>>> Tracks->Mix
>>>
>>> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
>>> I would let it drop the second time.
>>>
>>> Mix (and Render?)
>>>     Stereo Down to Mono
>>>     Down to Single Track
>>>     Down to New Track
>>>
>>> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>>>
>>>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>>>
>>>> File Menu
>>>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>>>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>>>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>>>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
>>>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
>>>> in future)
>>>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>>>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
>>>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
>>>> not enough discoverable.
>>>>
>>>> Edit Menu
>>>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>>>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>>>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
>>>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>>>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>>>>
>>>> Could look something like this:
>>>>
>>>> Select
>>>>     All (Ctrl-a)
>>>>     Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>>>     Region...
>>>>     Tracks...
>>>>     Spectral
>>>>
>>>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
>>>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
>>>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>>>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>>>
>>>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
>>>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
>>>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>>>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
>>>> above with "Select->All".
>>>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>>>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>>>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Transport Menu
>>>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>>>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>>>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
>>>> cursor is moved as well.
>>>>
>>>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit
>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>>>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>>>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
>>>>> unlike previously.
>>>>>
>>>>> --James.


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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Gale


On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:01 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 22 March 2017 at 19:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Gale wrote:
>>Do I assume your Audacity launch is near immediate, Peter?
>
> Mostly yes - but curiously not always
>
> occasionally it can take a fair time - do you want me to gather data on
> this?
>
> Peter

OK if you can give a range of times over say 10 or 12 launches - just
in your normal course of operation.

My main theory was that my slow rescan on Windows was related to
slow launch times of Audacity.



On my production W10 laptop it seems fairly consistently to take just under two
seconds for the the samll Audacity flash logo to appear with Audacity
available for use in just under four seconds.  Audacity launched by clicking
on a desktop icon (shortcut).

And remember that this is the machine that has almost instantaneous
rescan of audio devices both with and without newly-added USB device.


Also compared to the launch of other heavyish applications on my W10 laptop
4 seconds is pretty normal - some, like iTunes, Photoshop and Nero say, take
much longer - so the four seconds always seems fairly snappy to me.


I'll try to find some time to do some similar measurements on my wife's
little low-powered notebook (by far the slowest machine in our house)


Aside:  For me by far the biggest time penalty with Audacity is incurred when
I open large (two-hour) projects which I do with regularity.  Not only does it take
a long time but the screen looks a mess while it is taking place and there is no
progress indicator to indicate progression through the "open" process.  See:
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1339
Cheers,
Peter.

 

Gale

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 23 March 2017 at 06:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"
>
> Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?
>
> "Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport.

Agreed. They are 'view' items.

> Six of the eight
> commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
> and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
> can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
> also be greyed out.

"Skip to Selection Start / End" needs to be enabled when in paused
playback, and they also work if "Update display..." is not selected
and play head not pinned. The "flag" system is not fine grained enough
to handle complex logic so we do what we can.

Steve

>
> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.
>
> I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
> put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
> don't.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ps. I forgot to mention:
>> Tracks->Mix
>>
>> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
>> I would let it drop the second time.
>>
>> Mix (and Render?)
>>    Stereo Down to Mono
>>    Down to Single Track
>>    Down to New Track
>>
>> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>>
>>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>>
>>> File Menu
>>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
>>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
>>> in future)
>>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
>>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
>>> not enough discoverable.
>>>
>>> Edit Menu
>>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
>>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>>>
>>> Could look something like this:
>>>
>>> Select
>>>    All (Ctrl-a)
>>>    Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>>    Region...
>>>    Tracks...
>>>    Spectral
>>>
>>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
>>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
>>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>>
>>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
>>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
>>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
>>> above with "Select->All".
>>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>>
>>>
>>> Transport Menu
>>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
>>> cursor is moved as well.
>>>
>>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit out-of-the-box.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>>
>>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
>>>> unlike previously.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: Rescan (was: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure)

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
FYI, on my MacbookPro laptop it takes just about a second for Audacity to be ready to go when launching from the finder menu or the dock. This time is very consistent and is the same for 2.1.3 so at least here the rescan is not an issue.

Cliff

On Mar 23, 2017, at 5:57 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:01 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 22 March 2017 at 19:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Gale wrote:
>>Do I assume your Audacity launch is near immediate, Peter?
>
> Mostly yes - but curiously not always
>
> occasionally it can take a fair time - do you want me to gather data on
> this?
>
> Peter

OK if you can give a range of times over say 10 or 12 launches - just
in your normal course of operation.

My main theory was that my slow rescan on Windows was related to
slow launch times of Audacity.



On my production W10 laptop it seems fairly consistently to take just under two
seconds for the the samll Audacity flash logo to appear with Audacity
available for use in just under four seconds.  Audacity launched by clicking
on a desktop icon (shortcut).

And remember that this is the machine that has almost instantaneous
rescan of audio devices both with and without newly-added USB device.


Also compared to the launch of other heavyish applications on my W10 laptop
4 seconds is pretty normal - some, like iTunes, Photoshop and Nero say, take
much longer - so the four seconds always seems fairly snappy to me.


I'll try to find some time to do some similar measurements on my wife's
little low-powered notebook (by far the slowest machine in our house)


Aside:  For me by far the biggest time penalty with Audacity is incurred when
I open large (two-hour) projects which I do with regularity.  Not only does it take
a long time but the screen looks a mess while it is taking place and there is no
progress indicator to indicate progression through the "open" process.  See:
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1339
Cheers,
Peter.

 

Gale

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
As I pointed out earlier the one menu that now stands out like
a sore thumb is the very long Effect Menu.

Can I suggest that for 2.2.0 we consider making the default Preferences
setting for Effects to be:  "Grouped by type".

This would then present to the user two shorter menus - one the in-built
Audacity effects and the other the Nyquist effects.


I suspect that many newbies would manage just fine with the in-built Audacity
effects - but it would be easy for them to explore the Nyquist effects.  The two
shorter menus also mean that vertical scrolling of the effects list can be
avoided.

I ran this idea past my "mystery shopper" and she thought it was a good idea
finding the two separated menus far less intimidating than the one long
consolidated one. 


It woud leave us with the problem though that there appear to be two Nyquist
"types" - one for the Nyquist effects and the other for Nyquist Prompt.  
It always just looks wrong to me that we have two identical menu entries that
do different things - a little differentiation or consolidation would not go amiss
I find myself thinking.

Peter

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by James Crook
2017-03-23 11:43 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:

> Robert,
>
> Could you collate the menu rearrangement feedback, and put the outcomes
> in a shared document or wiki page?
>
> I think there is a lot of interest in the new select menu, and collating
> the ideas and asking Steve to implement it, because he has commit
> rights, would be the way forward on it.  Steve would choose the precise
> details for the initial version of the select menu on the 'doer-decides'
> principle.
>
> I'd like to see three sections:
> 1 - The select menu proposal
> 2 - Collation of proposals for the other changes that take minimal
> coding effort, e.g. removing redundant items, shorter wording in sub
> menus.  We probably need to agree a principle/guideline as to when to
> repeat a word, like Mix or Save, and when not.  That will give us
> consistency.
> 3 - Harder to do changes that entail new code.
>
> --James.
>

Acknowledged.

It's easiest for me to put the current menu items in a Worksheet, I think.

The column headers will look something like:

Position | Menu entry | New Position | Name change | Notes


Position will be something like eg 205.1 2= Edit menu, 05=entry in
this menu and .1 = level below top level (thus, eg 100 is the file
menu itself).

To get the new menu structure, one would simply sort by the third column.

I'll omit the three effect menus as they are not likely to change.
However, I will add all loose "Spirit" commands which could be
assigned to a menu if desired so.

Robert

>
>
> On 3/23/2017 6:59 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> 2017-03-23 7:28 GMT+01:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>>> "Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"
>>>
>>> Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?
>>>
>>> "Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport. Six of the eight
>>> commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
>>> and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
>>> can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
>>> also be greyed out.
>> Those latter two commands do belong into the view menu, do they not?
>>
>>> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.
>>>
>> With a sub menu "Point" in addition to those I indicated before
>> (Region, Tracks...)?
>>
>> *important*
>> The command Set/Expand Left Selection" (not in a menu, shortcut
>> presumably '[') moves the edit cursor to the left on each press, the
>> amount is depending on the zoom factor.
>> 2.2.0 Alpha from yesterday.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>> I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
>>> put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
>>> don't.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Ps. I forgot to mention:
>>>> Tracks->Mix
>>>>
>>>> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
>>>> I would let it drop the second time.
>>>>
>>>> Mix (and Render?)
>>>>     Stereo Down to Mono
>>>>     Down to Single Track
>>>>     Down to New Track
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>>>>
>>>>> File Menu
>>>>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>>>>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>>>>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>>>>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
>>>>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
>>>>> in future)
>>>>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>>>>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
>>>>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
>>>>> not enough discoverable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Edit Menu
>>>>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>>>>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>>>>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
>>>>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>>>>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could look something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> Select
>>>>>     All (Ctrl-a)
>>>>>     Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>>>>     Region...
>>>>>     Tracks...
>>>>>     Spectral
>>>>>
>>>>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
>>>>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
>>>>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>>>>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
>>>>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
>>>>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>>>>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
>>>>> above with "Select->All".
>>>>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>>>>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>>>>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Transport Menu
>>>>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>>>>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>>>>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
>>>>> cursor is moved as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit
>>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>>>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>>>>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>>>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>>>>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> unlike previously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
I like the idea of sorting to see the new order.

As part of helping the documentation effort, I started work on a utility
to generate screen captures of the menus.  I've attached a text version
(slightly redacted) which it generates.  This might help you create the
initial list in a worksheet.  The numbers at the start of each row are
indentation.  The '----' are the separators.

--James.

On 3/23/2017 2:50 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:

> 2017-03-23 11:43 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> Robert,
>>
>> Could you collate the menu rearrangement feedback, and put the outcomes
>> in a shared document or wiki page?
>>
>> I think there is a lot of interest in the new select menu, and collating
>> the ideas and asking Steve to implement it, because he has commit
>> rights, would be the way forward on it.  Steve would choose the precise
>> details for the initial version of the select menu on the 'doer-decides'
>> principle.
>>
>> I'd like to see three sections:
>> 1 - The select menu proposal
>> 2 - Collation of proposals for the other changes that take minimal
>> coding effort, e.g. removing redundant items, shorter wording in sub
>> menus.  We probably need to agree a principle/guideline as to when to
>> repeat a word, like Mix or Save, and when not.  That will give us
>> consistency.
>> 3 - Harder to do changes that entail new code.
>>
>> --James.
>>
> Acknowledged.
>
> It's easiest for me to put the current menu items in a Worksheet, I think.
>
> The column headers will look something like:
>
> Position | Menu entry | New Position | Name change | Notes
>
>
> Position will be something like eg 205.1 2= Edit menu, 05=entry in
> this menu and .1 = level below top level (thus, eg 100 is the file
> menu itself).
>
> To get the new menu structure, one would simply sort by the third column.
>
> I'll omit the three effect menus as they are not likely to change.
> However, I will add all loose "Spirit" commands which could be
> assigned to a menu if desired so.
>
> Robert
>
>>
>> On 3/23/2017 6:59 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> 2017-03-23 7:28 GMT+01:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>>>> "Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"
>>>>
>>>> Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?
>>>>
>>>> "Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport. Six of the eight
>>>> commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
>>>> and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
>>>> can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
>>>> also be greyed out.
>>> Those latter two commands do belong into the view menu, do they not?
>>>
>>>> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.
>>>>
>>> With a sub menu "Point" in addition to those I indicated before
>>> (Region, Tracks...)?
>>>
>>> *important*
>>> The command Set/Expand Left Selection" (not in a menu, shortcut
>>> presumably '[') moves the edit cursor to the left on each press, the
>>> amount is depending on the zoom factor.
>>> 2.2.0 Alpha from yesterday.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>> I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
>>>> put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
>>>> don't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Ps. I forgot to mention:
>>>>> Tracks->Mix
>>>>>
>>>>> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
>>>>> I would let it drop the second time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mix (and Render?)
>>>>>      Stereo Down to Mono
>>>>>      Down to Single Track
>>>>>      Down to New Track
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> File Menu
>>>>>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>>>>>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>>>>>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>>>>>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
>>>>>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
>>>>>> in future)
>>>>>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>>>>>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
>>>>>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
>>>>>> not enough discoverable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Edit Menu
>>>>>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>>>>>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>>>>>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
>>>>>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>>>>>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could look something like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Select
>>>>>>      All (Ctrl-a)
>>>>>>      Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>>>>>      Region...
>>>>>>      Tracks...
>>>>>>      Spectral
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
>>>>>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
>>>>>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>>>>>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
>>>>>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
>>>>>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>>>>>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
>>>>>> above with "Select->All".
>>>>>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>>>>>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>>>>>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Transport Menu
>>>>>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>>>>>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>>>>>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
>>>>>> cursor is moved as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit
>>>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>>>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>>>>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>>>>>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>>>>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>>>>>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> unlike previously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --James.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 23 March 2017 at 14:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As I pointed out earlier the one menu that now stands out like
> a sore thumb is the very long Effect Menu.
>
> Can I suggest that for 2.2.0 we consider making the default Preferences
> setting for Effects to be:  "Grouped by type".
>
> This would then present to the user two shorter menus - one the in-built
> Audacity effects and the other the Nyquist effects.

If we do that, I think it would need a bit of tweaking:

* The current label "Audacity" for built-in effects is not very clear.

* There are two "Nyquist" sub menus, one of which has only "Nyquist Prompt".

* If there are more than 15 (the "group" size) of any type of effect,
then, at least on Linux, all  effects of that type are pushed  another
menu level lower (to a sub-sub-menu).

Steve


>
>
> I suspect that many newbies would manage just fine with the in-built
> Audacity
> effects - but it would be easy for them to explore the Nyquist effects.  The
> two
> shorter menus also mean that vertical scrolling of the effects list can be
> avoided.
>
> I ran this idea past my "mystery shopper" and she thought it was a good idea
> finding the two separated menus far less intimidating than the one long
> consolidated one.
>
>
> It woud leave us with the problem though that there appear to be two Nyquist
> "types" - one for the Nyquist effects and the other for Nyquist Prompt.
> It always just looks wrong to me that we have two identical menu entries
> that
> do different things - a little differentiation or consolidation would not go
> amiss
> I find myself thinking.
>
> Peter
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by James Crook
2017-03-23 16:28 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:

> I like the idea of sorting to see the new order.
>
> As part of helping the documentation effort, I started work on a utility
> to generate screen captures of the menus.  I've attached a text version
> (slightly redacted) which it generates.  This might help you create the
> initial list in a worksheet.  The numbers at the start of each row are
> indentation.  The '----' are the separators.
>
> --James.
>

Thanks James

I did it with Python.
Nonetheless useful, especially the indentation.

Could you do the same for "keyboard" in preferences or does it only
capture the visible items?
Perhaps, I can extract the whole list I hope, I need actually only the
commands that are not in a menu.

I have also two strange entries under keyboard:
two times "Select - Select". I think the menu entries are not correctly matched.

Robert

> On 3/23/2017 2:50 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> 2017-03-23 11:43 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>> Could you collate the menu rearrangement feedback, and put the outcomes
>>> in a shared document or wiki page?
>>>
>>> I think there is a lot of interest in the new select menu, and collating
>>> the ideas and asking Steve to implement it, because he has commit
>>> rights, would be the way forward on it.  Steve would choose the precise
>>> details for the initial version of the select menu on the 'doer-decides'
>>> principle.
>>>
>>> I'd like to see three sections:
>>> 1 - The select menu proposal
>>> 2 - Collation of proposals for the other changes that take minimal
>>> coding effort, e.g. removing redundant items, shorter wording in sub
>>> menus.  We probably need to agree a principle/guideline as to when to
>>> repeat a word, like Mix or Save, and when not.  That will give us
>>> consistency.
>>> 3 - Harder to do changes that entail new code.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>> Acknowledged.
>>
>> It's easiest for me to put the current menu items in a Worksheet, I
>> think.
>>
>> The column headers will look something like:
>>
>> Position | Menu entry | New Position | Name change | Notes
>>
>>
>> Position will be something like eg 205.1 2= Edit menu, 05=entry in
>> this menu and .1 = level below top level (thus, eg 100 is the file
>> menu itself).
>>
>> To get the new menu structure, one would simply sort by the third column.
>>
>> I'll omit the three effect menus as they are not likely to change.
>> However, I will add all loose "Spirit" commands which could be
>> assigned to a menu if desired so.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>>
>>> On 3/23/2017 6:59 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>> 2017-03-23 7:28 GMT+01:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> "Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"
>>>>>
>>>>> Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?
>>>>>
>>>>> "Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport. Six of the eight
>>>>> commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
>>>>> and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
>>>>> can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
>>>>> also be greyed out.
>>>> Those latter two commands do belong into the view menu, do they not?
>>>>
>>>>> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.
>>>>>
>>>> With a sub menu "Point" in addition to those I indicated before
>>>> (Region, Tracks...)?
>>>>
>>>> *important*
>>>> The command Set/Expand Left Selection" (not in a menu, shortcut
>>>> presumably '[') moves the edit cursor to the left on each press, the
>>>> amount is depending on the zoom factor.
>>>> 2.2.0 Alpha from yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
>>>>> put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
>>>>> don't.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Ps. I forgot to mention:
>>>>>> Tracks->Mix
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
>>>>>> I would let it drop the second time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mix (and Render?)
>>>>>>      Stereo Down to Mono
>>>>>>      Down to Single Track
>>>>>>      Down to New Track
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> File Menu
>>>>>>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>>>>>>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>>>>>>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>>>>>>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and
>>>>>>> "Recent
>>>>>>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be
>>>>>>> treated
>>>>>>> in future)
>>>>>>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>>>>>>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open
>>>>>>> (only
>>>>>>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> not enough discoverable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edit Menu
>>>>>>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>>>>>>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>>>>>>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub
>>>>>>> menus;
>>>>>>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>>>>>>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g.
>>>>>>> Shift+Home/End.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could look something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Select
>>>>>>>      All (Ctrl-a)
>>>>>>>      Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>>>>>>      Region...
>>>>>>>      Tracks...
>>>>>>>      Spectral
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current
>>>>>>> behaviour
>>>>>>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>>>>>>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current
>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>>>>>>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>> above with "Select->All".
>>>>>>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>>>>>>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>>>>>>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Transport Menu
>>>>>>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>>>>>>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>>>>>>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> cursor is moved as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit
>>>>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>>>>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>>>>>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately
>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get
>>>>>>>> round
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>>>>>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in
>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> unlike previously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --James.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
On 3/23/2017 3:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:

> 2017-03-23 16:28 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> I like the idea of sorting to see the new order.
>>
>> As part of helping the documentation effort, I started work on a utility
>> to generate screen captures of the menus.  I've attached a text version
>> (slightly redacted) which it generates.  This might help you create the
>> initial list in a worksheet.  The numbers at the start of each row are
>> indentation.  The '----' are the separators.
>>
>> --James.
>>
> Thanks James
>
> I did it with Python.
> Nonetheless useful, especially the indentation.
>
> Could you do the same for "keyboard" in preferences or does it only
> capture the visible items?
I'll do that too.

--James.


> Perhaps, I can extract the whole list I hope, I need actually only the
> commands that are not in a menu.
>
> I have also two strange entries under keyboard:
> two times "Select - Select". I think the menu entries are not correctly matched.
>
> Robert
>
>> On 3/23/2017 2:50 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> 2017-03-23 11:43 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> Robert,
>>>>
>>>> Could you collate the menu rearrangement feedback, and put the outcomes
>>>> in a shared document or wiki page?
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a lot of interest in the new select menu, and collating
>>>> the ideas and asking Steve to implement it, because he has commit
>>>> rights, would be the way forward on it.  Steve would choose the precise
>>>> details for the initial version of the select menu on the 'doer-decides'
>>>> principle.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to see three sections:
>>>> 1 - The select menu proposal
>>>> 2 - Collation of proposals for the other changes that take minimal
>>>> coding effort, e.g. removing redundant items, shorter wording in sub
>>>> menus.  We probably need to agree a principle/guideline as to when to
>>>> repeat a word, like Mix or Save, and when not.  That will give us
>>>> consistency.
>>>> 3 - Harder to do changes that entail new code.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>> Acknowledged.
>>>
>>> It's easiest for me to put the current menu items in a Worksheet, I
>>> think.
>>>
>>> The column headers will look something like:
>>>
>>> Position | Menu entry | New Position | Name change | Notes
>>>
>>>
>>> Position will be something like eg 205.1 2= Edit menu, 05=entry in
>>> this menu and .1 = level below top level (thus, eg 100 is the file
>>> menu itself).
>>>
>>> To get the new menu structure, one would simply sort by the third column.
>>>
>>> I'll omit the three effect menus as they are not likely to change.
>>> However, I will add all loose "Spirit" commands which could be
>>> assigned to a menu if desired so.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2017 6:59 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>> 2017-03-23 7:28 GMT+01:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> "Edit > Select > Ends to Zero Crossings"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ends of what, if you only have the cursor?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Skip to / Cursor to"  do not belong in Transport. Six of the eight
>>>>>> commands are greyed out when there actually is transport,
>>>>>> and the other two "Skip to Selection Start/ Skip to Selection End"
>>>>>> can't be expected to work correctly during transport so should
>>>>>> also be greyed out.
>>>>> Those latter two commands do belong into the view menu, do they not?
>>>>>
>>>>>> So perhaps that is more case for having a separate Select menu.
>>>>>>
>>>>> With a sub menu "Point" in addition to those I indicated before
>>>>> (Region, Tracks...)?
>>>>>
>>>>> *important*
>>>>> The command Set/Expand Left Selection" (not in a menu, shortcut
>>>>> presumably '[') moves the edit cursor to the left on each press, the
>>>>> amount is depending on the zoom factor.
>>>>> 2.2.0 Alpha from yesterday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I will probably have more fine detail to comment on later (or just
>>>>>> put it on the Wording page) but I guess I like more here than I
>>>>>> don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 21 March 2017 at 21:35, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Ps. I forgot to mention:
>>>>>>> Tracks->Mix
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A bit too much mixing there. ;)
>>>>>>> I would let it drop the second time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mix (and Render?)
>>>>>>>       Stereo Down to Mono
>>>>>>>       Down to Single Track
>>>>>>>       Down to New Track
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps omitting down as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2017-03-21 22:21 GMT+01:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A few adhoc thoughts:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> File Menu
>>>>>>>> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
>>>>>>>> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
>>>>>>>> already in the "Save Other" menu.
>>>>>>>> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and
>>>>>>>> "Recent
>>>>>>>> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be
>>>>>>>> treated
>>>>>>>> in future)
>>>>>>>> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
>>>>>>>> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open
>>>>>>>> (only
>>>>>>>> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> not enough discoverable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Edit Menu
>>>>>>>> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
>>>>>>>> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
>>>>>>>> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub
>>>>>>>> menus;
>>>>>>>> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
>>>>>>>> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g.
>>>>>>>> Shift+Home/End.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Could look something like this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Select
>>>>>>>>       All (Ctrl-a)
>>>>>>>>       Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>>>>>>>>       Region...
>>>>>>>>       Tracks...
>>>>>>>>       Spectral
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current
>>>>>>>> behaviour
>>>>>>>> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
>>>>>>>> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current
>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
>>>>>>>> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be
>>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>> above with "Select->All".
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
>>>>>>>> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
>>>>>>>> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Transport Menu
>>>>>>>> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
>>>>>>>> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
>>>>>>>> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> cursor is moved as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit
>>>>>>>> out-of-the-box.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>>>>>>>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>>>>>>>>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately
>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get
>>>>>>>>> round
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>>>>>>>>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in
>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> unlike previously.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --James.
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle


On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 3:46 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 23 March 2017 at 14:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As I pointed out earlier the one menu that now stands out like
> a sore thumb is the very long Effect Menu.
>
> Can I suggest that for 2.2.0 we consider making the default Preferences
> setting for Effects to be:  "Grouped by type".
>
> This would then present to the user two shorter menus - one the in-built
> Audacity effects and the other the Nyquist effects.

If we do that, I think it would need a bit of tweaking:

* The current label "Audacity" for built-in effects is not very clear.

I would happily settle for "Built-in" as a better more meaningful menu entry
 

* There are two "Nyquist" sub menus, one of which has only "Nyquist Prompt".

So can we consolidate those?
 

* If there are more than 15 (the "group" size) of any type of effect,
then, at least on Linux, all  effects of that type are pushed  another
menu level lower (to a sub-sub-menu).

Steve




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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
IMHO,the grouping of effects, and actually the other "improvements" in the menu structure are double edged swords so to speak.

I may be the only one, but for me I prefer the long menus for the reason is that they are much faster to find what you want and less clicks to get something done. When I first started using Audacity a number of years ago I didn't know all the effects so browsed down the list to find something that sounded like it would do what I wanted. Tried it and if necessary looked it up in Help. With things grouped, a new user will have to check out all the groups one by one to do what I initially did. Now maybe they will be smart and look at the help and learn what they all do, but I didn't want to take that time. To summarize, it will take an extra click, which bugs me, and knowing where the one you want is located has to be learned. One quick scroll up and I can see those that are off screen which for me is almost an instantaneous action.

As an experienced user now I would welcome the ability to reorganize the list manually and probably would put the ones that I normally use or think I would use in the main menu and then leave the others at the bottom or possibly in a submenu. At this juncture I have made keyboard shortcuts for the most commonly used ones and don't even bother with the menu most of the time.

The same thinking on the File menu which was pretty long, but not off screen, and again it was only one click to drop down the menu and one more click to do what ever I needed to do, not two clicks to get to the submenu then choose the action with another click.

I guess I'm lazy, but I suspect I'm not the only one that works this way. Of course if there was a preference to turn off the "submenuing" function that would help, but still the new user may rather see the longer lists to get an idea of what's available and then turn on submenus if he/she desired.

I use some other software not related to audio editing that the author has just done what appears to be happening to Audacity. He took menus that were not off screen at all and shrunk them down. Now it takes 2 to 3 times as long to get to where I need to be once I learn where things are as the groupings and not always clear. Of course the author has every right to do what he wishes. I just relate that to show that I've been already through this once and am not looking forward to it again.

Anyway, just my 2 pence worth.

Cliff

> On Mar 23, 2017, at 9:44 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As I pointed out earlier the one menu that now stands out like
> a sore thumb is the very long Effect Menu.
>
> Can I suggest that for 2.2.0 we consider making the default Preferences
> setting for Effects to be:  "Grouped by type".
>
> This would then present to the user two shorter menus - one the in-built
> Audacity effects and the other the Nyquist effects.
>
>
> I suspect that many newbies would manage just fine with the in-built Audacity
> effects - but it would be easy for them to explore the Nyquist effects.  The two
> shorter menus also mean that vertical scrolling of the effects list can be
> avoided.
>
> I ran this idea past my "mystery shopper" and she thought it was a good idea
> finding the two separated menus far less intimidating than the one long
> consolidated one.  
>
>
> It woud leave us with the problem though that there appear to be two Nyquist
> "types" - one for the Nyquist effects and the other for Nyquist Prompt.  
> It always just looks wrong to me that we have two identical menu entries that
> do different things - a little differentiation or consolidation would not go amiss
> I find myself thinking.
>
> Peter
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
Cliff wrote:
>I may be the only one, but for me I prefer the long menus for the reason is that
>they are much faster to find what you want and less clicks to get something done.

I'm sure you're not the only one Cliff, there will be others ...  ;-))

But my suggestion, if implemented does not remove that option for you - it merely
changes the default to make Audacity look a little less intimidating to newbies.

All you would need to do is to go to Preferences>Effects and in
"Efffects in menu are:" and choose the top item  "Sorted by effect name".

And if we did do this I'm sure we would mention this tip in the Manual and in
the Release Notes.


Personally I too prefer a single menu, but (on my production system/environment)
I make it a lot shorter by disabling all the effects that I never (or very rarely) use.

Peter.

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
In reply to this post by James Crook
Robert,

I've attached two files created using different methods.

Menus.txt is extracted direct from the menus, and now includes the
keyboard shortcuts.

Keyboard.txt is extracted from the keyboard preferences.  It includes
keyboard shortcuts.  Item 257 onwards seem to be the non-menu command
items you want.  Otherwise it is largely the same as Menus.txt, without
the separators.

--James.


On 3/23/2017 4:28 PM, James Crook wrote:

> On 3/23/2017 3:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> 2017-03-23 16:28 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> I like the idea of sorting to see the new order.
>>>
>>> As part of helping the documentation effort, I started work on a utility
>>> to generate screen captures of the menus.  I've attached a text version
>>> (slightly redacted) which it generates.  This might help you create the
>>> initial list in a worksheet.  The numbers at the start of each row are
>>> indentation.  The '----' are the separators.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>> Thanks James
>>
>> I did it with Python.
>> Nonetheless useful, especially the indentation.
>>
>> Could you do the same for "keyboard" in preferences or does it only
>> capture the visible items?
> I'll do that too.
>
> --James.
>
>
>> Perhaps, I can extract the whole list I hope, I need actually only the
>> commands that are not in a menu.
>>
>> I have also two strange entries under keyboard:
>> two times "Select - Select". I think the menu entries are not correctly matched.
>>
>> Robert
>>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2

> On Mar 23, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Cliff wrote:
> >I may be the only one, but for me I prefer the long menus for the reason is that
> >they are much faster to find what you want and less clicks to get something done.
>
> I'm sure you're not the only one Cliff, there will be others ...  ;-))
>
> But my suggestion, if implemented does not remove that option for you - it merely
> changes the default to make Audacity look a little less intimidating to newbies.
>
> All you would need to do is to go to Preferences>Effects and in
> "Efffects in menu are:" and choose the top item  "Sorted by effect name".

True so are you saying to make the "Group by Type" default as that looks like the menu you were talking about. Does that not do what you are suggesting?

I agree disabling those effects that are not going to be used is a good idea. Now if we could just manually put the ones we really want in the order we want...... I suspect that is a lot of programming work so probably isn't worth it for the few that would really use it.

Cliff

>
> And if we did do this I'm sure we would mention this tip in the Manual and in
> the Release Notes.
>
>
> Personally I too prefer a single menu, but (on my production system/environment)
> I make it a lot shorter by disabling all the effects that I never (or very rarely) use.
>
> Peter

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott
Cliff wrote:
>I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>that they are much faster to find what you want
>and less clicks to get something done

Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a single-click to
activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  - then hover
over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.

Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or "Nyquist" and
then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one click is
really necessary.

So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.

With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click - but often
it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is often  actually
harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))


Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.

Peter.


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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Cliff Scott

> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Cliff wrote:
> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
> >that they are much faster to find what you want
> >and less clicks to get something done
>
> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a single-click to
> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  - then hover
> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>
> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or "Nyquist" and
> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one click is
> really necessary.
>
> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>
> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click - but often
> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is often  actually
> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>

Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me. Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.

Cliff

>
> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>
> Peter.
>
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Re: Rescan

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
Another factor I observe is that Audacity run from its build folder
on Windows 10 only takes a few seconds to start and the rescan
is only 1 second maximum.

If that build folder version is the first to run in a Windows session.
then 2.1.3 release and 2.2.0-alpha (run from the folders they
were installed to) have the same faster speed.

If I only run 2.1.3 or 2.2.0-alpha in a Windows session they are
slow to launch / rescan and then if I run Audacity from its build
folder it isn't now quick to start/rescan.

That has held good for last three reboots.


Gale


On 23 March 2017 at 08:09, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/23/2017 4:10 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> On 22 March 2017 at 10:43, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Gale wrote:
>>>> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>>>> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
>>>> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>>> Thanks for the figures.  2 seconds is already too long for my idea to
>>> work, and 5s is way too long.  So I agree with you.
>>>
>>> --James.
>> I later reported better (near-instantaneous) figures for Linux and Mac.
>>
>> Should the slowest response set the decision on this?
> Yes.
> A 5s wait when you click on the device bar would be unacceptable, in my
> opinion.  It is acceptable in the context of a requested rescan.
>
>> Do I assume the idea would be that that by the time the menu opened, the list would have been updated?
> Yes.  That was my intention.
>
> The slow start of Audacity might indeed be 'the same' issue as the slow
> rescan.
> Further diagnosis of what PortAudio is doing might reveal the cause -
> e.g. if we put some more logging in portaudio.  We might even be able to
> solve that.  Another approach, which I hadn't thought of before, is that
> we might be able to do the scanning in another thread.  This might
> entail some progress dialog to let the user know that something is going
> on, but it would also mean faster start up, and that the device toolbar
> could respond 'immediately' (though it might need an item 'more...' or
> some similar name to indicate that there might be new devices.
>
> Reluctant to do the 'other thread', as it is complicated, but trying out
> more logging is worth doing for 2.2.0, IMO.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>> On 3/22/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> On 21 March 2017 at 23:02, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>> Peter wrote:
>>>>>>> Does Rescan Audio Devices really belong in this menu? Though I can't see
>>>>>>> where else it would sensibly go.
>>>>>> In the device toolbar?
>>>>> Is Rescan always reasonably fast?  if so, could we do it whenever the
>>>>> user clicks on the device toolbar microphone or speaker option?
>>>> And also when changing host, which is always slower than changing
>>>> device?
>>>>
>>>>> That way we would not need it as a separate option.  [We would need to change the
>>>>> message in the device toolbar when no devices found to something like
>>>>> 'scan for devices'.]
>>>> I find the Rescan slow (5 - 6 seconds) on Windows if one or more USB 1.1
>>>> devices are newly (or even already) connected. 2 seconds otherwise. Don't
>>>> know if that is typical, but I would notice the change.
>>>>
>>>> I think users who don't expect to have to rescan might find a small square
>>>> Device Toolbar button with refresh icon and tooltip, probably to left of "Host",
>>>> more discoverable. But we already have a loop icon and Undo icon which
>>>> would look similar, we would have to think what type of refresh control we
>>>> want in Devices Preferences, and VI users may want the menu item anyway.
>>>>
>>>> On the whole I would leave it as is, unless no-one else sees Rescan delays.
>>>> I think the only long term solution is if PortAudio bring on their hotplug fixes
>>>> so that Audacity detects device list changes itself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott
Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there well
be some complaints about "extra navigation".

The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
un-necessary cascade.


Gale


On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Cliff wrote:
>> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >and less clicks to get something done
>>
>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a single-click to
>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  - then hover
>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>>
>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or "Nyquist" and
>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one click is
>> really necessary.
>>
>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>>
>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click - but often
>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is often  actually
>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>
>
> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me. Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.
>
> Cliff
>
>>
>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>>
>> Peter.
>>
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