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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Gale
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On 21 March 2017 at 21:21, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I think it looks much nicer with those short menus.
>
> A few adhoc thoughts:
>
> File Menu
> - "Save Compressed Copy of Project" looks queer in this sub menu. At
> least, the repetition of "Save..." could be dropped since we are
> already in the "Save Other" menu.
> - I would also split "Recent Files" into "Recent Projects" and "Recent
> Other" or "Recent Audio" (depends on how MIDI files should be treated
> in future)

Yes, this really needs to be done, IMO.


Gale


> It would also be thinkable to have a menu "Projects" directly under
> "File" with the three save commands of the projects + new + open (only
> projects) and a recent list underneath. However, this might be seen as
> not enough discoverable.
>
> Edit Menu
> - Recent discussions led me to the conclusion that it would be
> worthwhile to give selections its own menu.
> Firstly, tracks and regions could nicely separated into two sub menus;
> vertical vs horizontal. commands. It would also allow to add the
> selection commands that are currently not listed, e.g. Shift+Home/End.
>
> Could look something like this:
>
> Select
>    All (Ctrl-a)
>    Nothing* (Ctrl-Shift-a)
>    Region...
>    Tracks...
>    Spectral
>
> [*The current command is Select->None. This word alone implies for me
> that a countable thing is meant, namely tracks. The current behaviour
> is something between no audio and no tracks since the play cursor
> position stays the same but the selection end is removed.]
>
> For instance, if under Tracks "All" is chosen, it would mean that the
> region stays intact but all Tracks will be selected. The current name
> for this is "Select->In All Tracks".
> Commands that affect both would stay one level higher, as can be seen
> above with "Select->All".
> I'm not sure about the "Select->Left/Right at Playback Position"
> commands. They are not those I normally use but rather the "Dialog"
> versions. The names at least are not very descriptive IMHO.
>
>
> Transport Menu
> - I'm not sure if the "Skip" and "Cursor to" menus have the right
> items. What is meant by Skipping, changing the view position?
> "Home" and "End" do effectively jump to the project start/End and the
> cursor is moved as well.
>
> OK, that's enough for now. Sorry if I dared to think a bit out-of-the-box.
>
> Cheers
> Robert
>
> 2017-03-21 15:47 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> On 3/21/2017 2:31 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>
>>> though I do think that the "as MP3 / as WAV" options are user
>>> friendly for novices (provided that LAME is installed).
>> For DA, I wanted to make clicking on 'Export as MP3' immediately tell
>> you if LAME was not present, and how to get it, but didn't get round to
>> that.
>>
>> A reason for these extra 'convenience' menu items is that to large
>> extent it makes up for having to go one level deeper.
>>
>> If you ExportAudio and choose AAC it will remember that for next time
>> you do ExportAudio, even if you have exported as wav or mp3 in between -
>> unlike previously.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by James Crook
2017-03-23 18:29 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:

> Robert,
>
> I've attached two files created using different methods.
>
> Menus.txt is extracted direct from the menus, and now includes the
> keyboard shortcuts.
>
> Keyboard.txt is extracted from the keyboard preferences.  It includes
> keyboard shortcuts.  Item 257 onwards seem to be the non-menu command
> items you want.  Otherwise it is largely the same as Menus.txt, without
> the separators.
>
> --James.
>

Perfect, this is going to be exceedingly helpful, not only for the task at hand.

Thanks
Robert

>
> On 3/23/2017 4:28 PM, James Crook wrote:
>> On 3/23/2017 3:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> 2017-03-23 16:28 GMT+01:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> I like the idea of sorting to see the new order.
>>>>
>>>> As part of helping the documentation effort, I started work on a
>>>> utility
>>>> to generate screen captures of the menus.  I've attached a text version
>>>> (slightly redacted) which it generates.  This might help you create the
>>>> initial list in a worksheet.  The numbers at the start of each row are
>>>> indentation.  The '----' are the separators.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>> Thanks James
>>>
>>> I did it with Python.
>>> Nonetheless useful, especially the indentation.
>>>
>>> Could you do the same for "keyboard" in preferences or does it only
>>> capture the visible items?
>> I'll do that too.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>>> Perhaps, I can extract the whole list I hope, I need actually only the
>>> commands that are not in a menu.
>>>
>>> I have also two strange entries under keyboard:
>>> two times "Select - Select". I think the menu entries are not correctly
>>> matched.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Gale


On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there well
be some complaints about "extra navigation".

The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
un-necessary cascade.

Yes, but the zoom commands in the menu aslso have buttons in the Edit Toolbar
(apart from the zoom normal that is)..

And all have pre-assigned documented shortcuts (apart from zoom to fit that is).

Plus there is the zoom tool and zooming via the mouse scoll wheel.

So it seems to me that cascading the zoom menu should not inconvenience too
many people as I'm pretty sure most of them use the bottons or the shortcuts.
I know that I for one have never used zoom from the menu (except in documenting
od QA testing) as it's much easier to use the other tools.

And those that do choose to use it should soon see the shortcuts abd realize just
jow valuable they are to aid faster working.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also on a closely related topic, Inote that the Edit Toolbar lacks a button for "Zoom
Normal" which is a function which I'm sure many of us use a lot. I certainly do, using
the Ctrl+2 chortcut (which I learned very early on).  This is one of the reasons that
a while back I wrote the Proposal for splitting off the Zoom functions into their own
toolbar and adding additional zoom functionality to such a Zoom Toolbar. See:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ... cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort

Indeed, many things on most applications are a liability with a trackpad ...

I hate the darn things, only using them when absolutely necessary when no mouse
is available.

Peter.



Gale


On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Cliff wrote:
>> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >and less clicks to get something done
>>
>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a single-click to
>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  - then hover
>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>>
>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or "Nyquist" and
>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one click is
>> really necessary.
>>
>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>>
>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click - but often
>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is often  actually
>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>
>
> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me. Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.
>
> Cliff
>
>>
>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
On 24 March 2017 at 09:22, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there well
>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>
>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> un-necessary cascade.
>
>
> Yes, but the zoom commands in the menu aslso have buttons in the Edit
> Toolbar
> (apart from the zoom normal that is)..
>
> And all have pre-assigned documented shortcuts (apart from zoom to fit that
> is).
>
> Plus there is the zoom tool and zooming via the mouse scoll wheel.
>
> So it seems to me that cascading the zoom menu should not inconvenience too
> many people as I'm pretty sure most of them use the bottons or the
> shortcuts.
> I know that I for one have never used zoom from the menu (except in
> documenting
> od QA testing) as it's much easier to use the other tools.
>
> And those that do choose to use it should soon see the shortcuts abd realize
> just
> jow valuable they are to aid faster working.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also on a closely related topic, Inote that the Edit Toolbar lacks a button
> for "Zoom
> Normal" which is a function which I'm sure many of us use a lot. I certainly
> do, using
> the Ctrl+2 chortcut (which I learned very early on).  This is one of the
> reasons that
> a while back I wrote the Proposal for splitting off the Zoom functions into
> their own
> toolbar and adding additional zoom functionality to such a Zoom Toolbar.
> See:
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ... cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort
>
> Indeed, many things on most applications are a liability with a trackpad ...
>
> I hate the darn things, only using them when absolutely necessary when no
> mouse
> is available.

It beats me how anyone can use Audacity effectively with a trackpad.

I also find Magic Mouse to be horrible for editing because the tracks
keep sliding around while I'm trying to make a selection.

Steve

>
> Peter.
>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >>
>> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> single-click to
>> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  -
>> >> then hover
>> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >>
>> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one
>> >> click is
>> >> really necessary.
>> >>
>> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >>
>> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click
>> >> - but often
>> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>> >> often  actually
>> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >>
>> >
>> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always
>> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group
>> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on
>> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down
>> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and
>> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me.
>> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to
>> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal
>> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.
>> >
>> > Cliff
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Gale
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there well
be some complaints about "extra navigation".

The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
un-necessary cascade.

These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:

They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't think having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.

David.



Gale


On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Cliff wrote:
>> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >and less clicks to get something done
>>
>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a single-click to
>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  - then hover
>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>>
>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or "Nyquist" and
>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one click is
>> really necessary.
>>
>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>>
>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click - but often
>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is often  actually
>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>
>
> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me. Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.
>
> Cliff
>
>>
>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there well
>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>
>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> un-necessary cascade.
>
>
> These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>
> They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't think
> having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are
> frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.

Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just a
few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
Selection with Track"?

Steve

>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >>
>> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> single-click to
>> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  -
>> >> then hover
>> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >>
>> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one
>> >> click is
>> >> really necessary.
>> >>
>> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >>
>> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click
>> >> - but often
>> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>> >> often  actually
>> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >>
>> >
>> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always
>> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group
>> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on
>> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down
>> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and
>> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me.
>> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to
>> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal
>> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.
>> >
>> > Cliff
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle

On Mar 24, 2017, at 4:53 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 24 March 2017 at 09:22, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there well
be some complaints about "extra navigation".

The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
un-necessary cascade.


Yes, but the zoom commands in the menu aslso have buttons in the Edit
Toolbar
(apart from the zoom normal that is)..

And all have pre-assigned documented shortcuts (apart from zoom to fit that
is).

Plus there is the zoom tool and zooming via the mouse scoll wheel.

So it seems to me that cascading the zoom menu should not inconvenience too
many people as I'm pretty sure most of them use the bottons or the
shortcuts.
I know that I for one have never used zoom from the menu (except in
documenting
od QA testing) as it's much easier to use the other tools.

And those that do choose to use it should soon see the shortcuts abd realize
just
jow valuable they are to aid faster working.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also on a closely related topic, Inote that the Edit Toolbar lacks a button
for "Zoom
Normal" which is a function which I'm sure many of us use a lot. I certainly
do, using
the Ctrl+2 chortcut (which I learned very early on).  This is one of the
reasons that
a while back I wrote the Proposal for splitting off the Zoom functions into
their own
toolbar and adding additional zoom functionality to such a Zoom Toolbar.
See:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort

Indeed, many things on most applications are a liability with a trackpad ...

I hate the darn things, only using them when absolutely necessary when no
mouse
is available.

It beats me how anyone can use Audacity effectively with a trackpad.

Steve & Peter,

The trackpad has its challenges such as moving exactly horizontally, but even though I had used a mouse for years, when I got my MacBook Pro laptop I decided to really learn the trackpad and with appropriate tracking speed and acceleration settings and practice I much prefer it now over the mouse. Somewhat akin to throwing a baseball or throwing a beach ball. The mouse now seems awkward and limiting. It helps that the Mac has used trackpads for a long time and developed it to the point that it has become quite useful for most things. Anyway it can be done and IMO works better generally. The mouse has it's place and I realize most people use one exclusively and as well most have never used the trackpad enough to be at home with it.

I really appreciate the work Paul put into make more of the gestures useable in 2.1.3. It's so nice to be able to do with a flick of a finger(s) what I would have to reach over a grab a mouse to do then move back to the keyboard. Much quicker and easier for most things.


I also find Magic Mouse to be horrible for editing because the tracks
keep sliding around while I'm trying to make a selection.

Never tried one, but from what I've picked up I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like one either.

Cliff


Steve


Peter.



Gale


On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

Cliff wrote:
I prefer the long menus for the reason is
that they are much faster to find what you want
and less clicks to get something done

Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
single-click to
activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  -
then hover
over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.

Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
"Nyquist" and
then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one
click is
really necessary.

So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.

With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click
- but often
it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
often  actually
harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))


Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always
move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group
and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on
the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down
to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and
have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me.
Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to
another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal
I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.

Cliff


Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.

Peter.


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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there well
>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>
>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> un-necessary cascade.
>
>
> These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>
> They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't think
> having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are
> frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.

Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just a
few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
Selection with Track"?

the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I think the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now. Having the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.

David.
 

Steve

>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >>
>> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> single-click to
>> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  -
>> >> then hover
>> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >>
>> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only one
>> >> click is
>> >> really necessary.
>> >>
>> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >>
>> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single click
>> >> - but often
>> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>> >> often  actually
>> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >>
>> >
>> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't always
>> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired group
>> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down on
>> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop down
>> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem and
>> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs me.
>> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving to
>> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly horizontal
>> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm sure.
>> >
>> > Cliff
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>> >> well
>> >> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>> >>
>> >> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> >> un-necessary cascade.
>> >
>> >
>> > These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>> >
>> > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>> >
>> > They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't think
>> > having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are
>> > frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.
>>
>> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just a
>> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
>> Selection with Track"?
>
>
> the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
> If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I think
> the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now. Having
> the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.

I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
be thought through differently.

As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.

Steve

>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> >> single-click to
>> >> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"
>> >> >> -
>> >> >> then hover
>> >> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> click is
>> >> >> really necessary.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>> >> >> click
>> >> >> - but often
>> >> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>> >> >> often  actually
>> >> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>> >> > always
>> >> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired
>> >> > group
>> >> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse
>> >> > down on
>> >> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally
>> >> > drop down
>> >> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem
>> >> > and
>> >> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it
>> >> > bugs me.
>> >> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving
>> >> > to
>> >> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>> >> > horizontal
>> >> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>> >> > sure.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cliff
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>> >> well
>> >> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>> >>
>> >> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> >> un-necessary cascade.
>> >
>> >
>> > These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>> >
>> > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>> >
>> > They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't think
>> > having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are
>> > frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.
>>
>> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just a
>> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
>> Selection with Track"?
>
>
> the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
> If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I think
> the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now. Having
> the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.

I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
be thought through differently.

As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.

The existing structure is good enough.
Audacity have very few resources for development.
Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development time?
Think of all the existing bugs.
Think of all the new features that users might want (including improved accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).

David.
 

Steve

>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> >> single-click to
>> >> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"
>> >> >> -
>> >> >> then hover
>> >> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> click is
>> >> >> really necessary.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>> >> >> click
>> >> >> - but often
>> >> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>> >> >> often  actually
>> >> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>> >> > always
>> >> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired
>> >> > group
>> >> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse
>> >> > down on
>> >> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally
>> >> > drop down
>> >> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem
>> >> > and
>> >> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it
>> >> > bugs me.
>> >> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving
>> >> > to
>> >> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>> >> > horizontal
>> >> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>> >> > sure.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cliff
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >
>>
>>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
On 25 March 2017 at 09:20, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>> >> >> well
>> >> >> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> >> >> un-necessary cascade.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>> >> >
>> >> > They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't
>> >> > think
>> >> > having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are
>> >> > frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.
>> >>
>> >> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>> >> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just a
>> >> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
>> >> Selection with Track"?
>> >
>> >
>> > the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
>> > If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I
>> > think
>> > the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now.
>> > Having
>> > the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.
>>
>> I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
>> levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
>> menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
>> looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
>> be thought through differently.
>>
>> As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
>> a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.
>
>
> The existing structure is good enough.
> Audacity have very few resources for development.
> Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development time?

I think that "usability" is always worth attention. Imo it is even
more important than new features.


> Think of all the existing bugs.
> Think of all the new features that users might want (including improved
> accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).

I was responding to your suggestion about changing the current (new)
layout. If you don't want to discus that, then I don't understand why
you bothered posting.

Steve

>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > David.
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gale
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> >> >> single-click to
>> >> >> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the
>> >> >> >> "Effects"
>> >> >> >> -
>> >> >> >> then hover
>> >> >> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> >> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> >> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above
>> >> >> >> only
>> >> >> >> one
>> >> >> >> click is
>> >> >> >> really necessary.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>> >> >> >> click
>> >> >> >> - but often
>> >> >> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> often  actually
>> >> >> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>> >> >> > always
>> >> >> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the
>> >> >> > desired
>> >> >> > group
>> >> >> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse
>> >> >> > down on
>> >> >> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally
>> >> >> > drop down
>> >> >> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my
>> >> >> > problem
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it
>> >> >> > bugs me.
>> >> >> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before
>> >> >> > moving
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>> >> >> > horizontal
>> >> >> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>> >> >> > sure.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Cliff
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 March 2017 at 09:20, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>> >> >> well
>> >> >> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> >> >> un-necessary cascade.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>> >> >
>> >> > They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't
>> >> > think
>> >> > having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are
>> >> > frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.
>> >>
>> >> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>> >> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just a
>> >> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
>> >> Selection with Track"?
>> >
>> >
>> > the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
>> > If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I
>> > think
>> > the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now.
>> > Having
>> > the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.
>>
>> I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
>> levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
>> menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
>> looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
>> be thought through differently.
>>
>> As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
>> a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.
>
>
> The existing structure is good enough.
> Audacity have very few resources for development.
> Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development time?

I think that "usability" is always worth attention. Imo it is even
more important than new features.


> Think of all the existing bugs.
> Think of all the new features that users might want (including improved
> accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).

I was responding to your suggestion about changing the current (new)
layout. If you don't want to discus that, then I don't understand why
you bothered posting. 

Sorry for any confusion. By the existing menu structure for the align commands, I was referring to 2.1.3.
I don't think that the align commands should be down two levels. I think they should be down only one level, however that is achieved. I don't think that having a dialog would be an improvement.

I now want to exit from this discussion,

David.

Steve

>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > David.
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gale
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> >> >> single-click to
>> >> >> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the
>> >> >> >> "Effects"
>> >> >> >> -
>> >> >> >> then hover
>> >> >> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> >> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> >> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above
>> >> >> >> only
>> >> >> >> one
>> >> >> >> click is
>> >> >> >> really necessary.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>> >> >> >> click
>> >> >> >> - but often
>> >> >> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> often  actually
>> >> >> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>> >> >> > always
>> >> >> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the
>> >> >> > desired
>> >> >> > group
>> >> >> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse
>> >> >> > down on
>> >> >> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally
>> >> >> > drop down
>> >> >> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my
>> >> >> > problem
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it
>> >> >> > bugs me.
>> >> >> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before
>> >> >> > moving
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>> >> >> > horizontal
>> >> >> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>> >> >> > sure.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Cliff
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by David Bailes-3
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:20 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>> >> well
>> >> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>> >>
>> >> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> >> un-necessary cascade.
>> >
>> >
>> > These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>> >
>> > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>> >
>> > They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't think
>> > having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they are
>> > frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default shortcuts.
>>
>> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just a
>> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
>> Selection with Track"?
>
>
> the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
> If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I think
> the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now. Having
> the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.

I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
be thought through differently.

As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.

The existing structure is good enough.
Audacity have very few resources for development.
Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development time?
Think of all the existing bugs.
Think of all the new features that users might want (including improved accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).

Steve, I'm sorry for overreacting.

David.
 

David.
 

Steve

>
> David.
>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> >> single-click to
>> >> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"
>> >> >> -
>> >> >> then hover
>> >> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>> >> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> click is
>> >> >> really necessary.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>> >> >> click
>> >> >> - but often
>> >> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>> >> >> often  actually
>> >> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>> >> > always
>> >> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired
>> >> > group
>> >> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse
>> >> > down on
>> >> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally
>> >> > drop down
>> >> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem
>> >> > and
>> >> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it
>> >> > bugs me.
>> >> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving
>> >> > to
>> >> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>> >> > horizontal
>> >> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>> >> > sure.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cliff
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by David Bailes-3
I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
for these commands.

The Tracks Menu is not long, and it is easy to revert this to 2.1.3
state if we can't find some other solution. The only solution I can
think of, if feasible, is a checkbox at the top "Also Move Selection".
If that is checked then this greys out the two Align * commands.

But you could do the same with Steve's dialogue idea.


Gale



On 25 March 2017 at 10:17, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Steve the Fiddle
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 25 March 2017 at 09:20, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews
>> >> >> > <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And
>> >> >> >> there
>> >> >> >> well
>> >> >> >> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>> >> >> >> un-necessary cascade.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't
>> >> >> > think
>> >> >> > having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default
>> >> >> > shortcuts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>> >> >> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
>> >> >> Selection with Track"?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
>> >> > If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I
>> >> > think
>> >> > the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now.
>> >> > Having
>> >> > the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.
>> >>
>> >> I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
>> >> levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
>> >> menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
>> >> looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
>> >> be thought through differently.
>> >>
>> >> As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
>> >> a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.
>> >
>> >
>> > The existing structure is good enough.
>> > Audacity have very few resources for development.
>> > Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development time?
>>
>> I think that "usability" is always worth attention. Imo it is even
>> more important than new features.
>>
>>
>> > Think of all the existing bugs.
>> > Think of all the new features that users might want (including improved
>> > accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).
>>
>> I was responding to your suggestion about changing the current (new)
>> layout. If you don't want to discus that, then I don't understand why
>> you bothered posting.
>
>
> Sorry for any confusion. By the existing menu structure for the align
> commands, I was referring to 2.1.3.
> I don't think that the align commands should be down two levels. I think
> they should be down only one level, however that is achieved. I don't think
> that having a dialog would be an improvement.
>
> I now want to exit from this discussion,
>
> David.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > David.
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Steve
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > David.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Gale
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> >> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Cliff wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>> >> >> >> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>> >> >> >> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>> >> >> >> >> single-click to
>> >> >> >> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the
>> >> >> >> >> "Effects"
>> >> >> >> >> -
>> >> >> >> >> then hover
>> >> >> >> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required
>> >> >> >> >> effect.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity"
>> >> >> >> >> or
>> >> >> >> >> "Nyquist" and
>> >> >> >> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above
>> >> >> >> >> only
>> >> >> >> >> one
>> >> >> >> >> click is
>> >> >> >> >> really necessary.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one
>> >> >> >> >> click.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a
>> >> >> >> >> single
>> >> >> >> >> click
>> >> >> >> >> - but often
>> >> >> >> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer
>> >> >> >> >> menu
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> often  actually
>> >> >> >> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and
>> >> >> >> > don't
>> >> >> >> > always
>> >> >> >> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the
>> >> >> >> > desired
>> >> >> >> > group
>> >> >> >> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the
>> >> >> >> > mouse
>> >> >> >> > down on
>> >> >> >> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I
>> >> >> >> > naturally
>> >> >> >> > drop down
>> >> >> >> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my
>> >> >> >> > problem
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > bugs me.
>> >> >> >> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before
>> >> >> >> > moving
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't
>> >> >> >> > exactly
>> >> >> >> > horizontal
>> >> >> >> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem
>> >> >> >> > I'm
>> >> >> >> > sure.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Cliff
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new
>> >> >> >> >> default.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >> >> >> most
>> >> >> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-26 5:13 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
> for these commands.
>
> The Tracks Menu is not long, and it is easy to revert this to 2.1.3
> state if we can't find some other solution. The only solution I can
> think of, if feasible, is a checkbox at the top "Also Move Selection".
> If that is checked then this greys out the two Align * commands.
>

I thought of that too.
However, it's not feasible without dynamic menu entries that reflect
the shortcuts assigned (if the user has done so).


"Align End to End" merits its own top-level entry within Tracks since
it is so alien to all other commands.

"Align Together"
I must admit, this one baffles me all the time and I have regularly to
look it up.
The behaviour is somewhat unexpected, who would guess that the
alignment takes place at the average start time?
Subjectively, I would change it to
"Align Together at Cursor/Selection Start" or keeping the old behaviour with
"Align Together at Average Start Time" or something along these lines.

> But you could do the same with Steve's dialogue idea.

Yes, and proper design is tricky for that as well.

Let's start with:

---------------
Align Dialog
---------------
>

1. Align Track...
- Start
- End

2. With
  - Time Zero**
- Cursor/Selection Start
- Selection End

3. Move Selection Too
- Yes
- No
---------------

** Already a conflict here if end is chosen in #1
A possible solution is to add under #2
"Project End"
either by alternating between "Time Zero" and "Project End" or by
greying out the impossible one.
The first solution is probably better since the user might first
select "Time Zero" and then select "End" afterwards. "Time Zero" would
automatically switch to "Project End".
Of course, this would give a new command, previously not present in
Audacity, namely "Align End with Project End".

Next problem, what to do with "Align Together".
It could be integrated into the dialog.
One way is the following distinction:

---------------
Align Dialog
---------------
>

1. Align
- Earliest Start
- Latest End
- All Starts
- All Ends

2. With
  - Time Zero | Project End
- Cursor/Selection Start
- Selection End

3. Move Selection Too
- Yes
- No
---------------

Alternatively:

---------------
Align Dialog
---------------
>

1. Align Track...
- Start
- End

2. With
  - Time Zero**
- Cursor/Selection Start
- Selection End

3. Move Selection Too
- Yes
- No

4. Treat Tracks
- As Group
- Individually
---------------


The attentive observer will notice that this amounts up to 24 Commands
instead of previously 11.
However, this can be reduced by simply greying out controls #2 and #3
for "All Starts" and "All Ends".
This gives then only two "Together" commands.
"Align all Starts together" and
"Align All Ends Together"
and the latter can be dropped by removing "All Ends" in control #1
Thus we are essentially back to the original number of commands.

Rewriting Control #1 explicitly:
1. Align...
- Earliest Track Starts
- Earliest Track Ends
- All Starts Individually

There's also the Sync-Lock track problem remaining (mainly for Align
Together, possibly also for Align End to End).
My proposal would be that Audacity explicitly asks what to do if a
track is member of a Sync-Locked group--Either keep it together or
break it up.

Note that I'm only joggling ideas about, my preference is still the
align together command as is, with the modifications indicated above.
Although it would be nice to be able to align all ends together as
well.


Last point for consideration:
How can the user see in a alignment dialog if a command has already an
assigned shortcut?

Good luck ;)
Robert

>
> Gale
>
>
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 10:17, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 25 March 2017 at 09:20, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> > <[hidden email]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> >> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews
>>> >> >> > <[hidden email]>
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And
>>> >> >> >> there
>>> >> >> >> well
>>> >> >> >> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>>> >> >> >> un-necessary cascade.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I
>>> >> >> > don't
>>> >> >> > think
>>> >> >> > having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as
>>> >> >> > they
>>> >> >> > are
>>> >> >> > frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default
>>> >> >> > shortcuts.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in
>>> >> >> just
>>> >> >> a
>>> >> >> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and
>>> >> >> move
>>> >> >> Selection with Track"?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
>>> >> > If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I
>>> >> > think
>>> >> > the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now.
>>> >> > Having
>>> >> > the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.
>>> >>
>>> >> I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
>>> >> levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
>>> >> menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
>>> >> looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
>>> >> be thought through differently.
>>> >>
>>> >> As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
>>> >> a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The existing structure is good enough.
>>> > Audacity have very few resources for development.
>>> > Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development
>>> > time?
>>>
>>> I think that "usability" is always worth attention. Imo it is even
>>> more important than new features.
>>>
>>>
>>> > Think of all the existing bugs.
>>> > Think of all the new features that users might want (including
>>> > improved
>>> > accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).
>>>
>>> I was responding to your suggestion about changing the current (new)
>>> layout. If you don't want to discus that, then I don't understand why
>>> you bothered posting.
>>
>>
>> Sorry for any confusion. By the existing menu structure for the align
>> commands, I was referring to 2.1.3.
>> I don't think that the align commands should be down two levels. I think
>> they should be down only one level, however that is achieved. I don't
>> think
>> that having a dialog would be an improvement.
>>
>> I now want to exit from this discussion,
>>
>> David.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> >
>>> > David.
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > David.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Steve
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > David.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Gale
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]>
>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>>> >> >> >> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Cliff wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> >I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>>> >> >> >> >> >that they are much faster to find what you want
>>> >> >> >> >> >and less clicks to get something done
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be
>>> >> >> >> >> a
>>> >> >> >> >> single-click to
>>> >> >> >> >> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the
>>> >> >> >> >> "Effects"
>>> >> >> >> >> -
>>> >> >> >> >> then hover
>>> >> >> >> >> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required
>>> >> >> >> >> effect.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on
>>> >> >> >> >> "Audacity"
>>> >> >> >> >> or
>>> >> >> >> >> "Nyquist" and
>>> >> >> >> >> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as
>>> >> >> >> >> above
>>> >> >> >> >> only
>>> >> >> >> >> one
>>> >> >> >> >> click is
>>> >> >> >> >> really necessary.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one
>>> >> >> >> >> click.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a
>>> >> >> >> >> single
>>> >> >> >> >> click
>>> >> >> >> >> - but often
>>> >> >> >> >> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer
>>> >> >> >> >> menu
>>> >> >> >> >> is
>>> >> >> >> >> often  actually
>>> >> >> >> >> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and
>>> >> >> >> > don't
>>> >> >> >> > always
>>> >> >> >> > move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the
>>> >> >> >> > desired
>>> >> >> >> > group
>>> >> >> >> > and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the
>>> >> >> >> > mouse
>>> >> >> >> > down on
>>> >> >> >> > the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I
>>> >> >> >> > naturally
>>> >> >> >> > drop down
>>> >> >> >> > to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my
>>> >> >> >> > problem
>>> >> >> >> > and
>>> >> >> >> > have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing
>>> >> >> >> > and
>>> >> >> >> > it
>>> >> >> >> > bugs me.
>>> >> >> >> > Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause
>>> >> >> >> > before
>>> >> >> >> > moving
>>> >> >> >> > to
>>> >> >> >> > another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't
>>> >> >> >> > exactly
>>> >> >> >> > horizontal
>>> >> >> >> > I would still get the right menu. No one else has this
>>> >> >> >> > problem
>>> >> >> >> > I'm
>>> >> >> >> > sure.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Cliff
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new
>>> >> >> >> >> default.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Peter.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> >> >> >> >> most
>>> >> >> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> >> >> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> >> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> >> >> >> > most
>>> >> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> >> >> > [hidden email]
>>> >> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> >> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> >> > [hidden email]
>>> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> > [hidden email]
>>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
> for these commands.

I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought it
was pointless.
That gives one less level of menu.

IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:

Move Selection with Track (on/off)

(Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and gives
us one less level here.
No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if we
insist on having it, need not affect them.

--James.


>
> The Tracks Menu is not long, and it is easy to revert this to 2.1.3
> state if we can't find some other solution. The only solution I can
> think of, if feasible, is a checkbox at the top "Also Move Selection".
> If that is checked then this greys out the two Align * commands.
>
> But you could do the same with Steve's dialogue idea.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 10:17, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 25 March 2017 at 09:20, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews
>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And
>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>>>>>>>>> un-necessary cascade.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default
>>>>>>>> shortcuts.
>>>>>>> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>>>>>>> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and move
>>>>>>> Selection with Track"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
>>>>>> If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now.
>>>>>> Having
>>>>>> the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.
>>>>> I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
>>>>> levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
>>>>> menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
>>>>> looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
>>>>> be thought through differently.
>>>>>
>>>>> As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
>>>>> a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.
>>>>
>>>> The existing structure is good enough.
>>>> Audacity have very few resources for development.
>>>> Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development time?
>>> I think that "usability" is always worth attention. Imo it is even
>>> more important than new features.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Think of all the existing bugs.
>>>> Think of all the new features that users might want (including improved
>>>> accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).
>>> I was responding to your suggestion about changing the current (new)
>>> layout. If you don't want to discus that, then I don't understand why
>>> you bothered posting.
>>
>> Sorry for any confusion. By the existing menu structure for the align
>> commands, I was referring to 2.1.3.
>> I don't think that the align commands should be down two levels. I think
>> they should be down only one level, however that is achieved. I don't think
>> that having a dialog would be an improvement.
>>
>> I now want to exit from this discussion,
>>
>> David.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cliff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that they are much faster to find what you want
>>>>>>>>>>>> and less clicks to get something done
>>>>>>>>>>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>>>>>>>>>>> single-click to
>>>>>>>>>>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the
>>>>>>>>>>> "Effects"
>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> then hover
>>>>>>>>>>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required
>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity"
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> "Nyquist" and
>>>>>>>>>>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> click is
>>>>>>>>>>> really necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one
>>>>>>>>>>> click.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a
>>>>>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>>>>>> click
>>>>>>>>>>> - but often
>>>>>>>>>>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer
>>>>>>>>>>> menu
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> often  actually
>>>>>>>>>>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>> move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the
>>>>>>>>>> desired
>>>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>>>> and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the
>>>>>>>>>> mouse
>>>>>>>>>> down on
>>>>>>>>>> the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I
>>>>>>>>>> naturally
>>>>>>>>>> drop down
>>>>>>>>>> to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my
>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> bugs me.
>>>>>>>>>> Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before
>>>>>>>>>> moving
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't
>>>>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>>>>> horizontal
>>>>>>>>>> I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem
>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>> default.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>> for these commands.
>
> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought it
> was pointless.
> That gives one less level of menu.
>

Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
selection is not moved ;)
It depends on the command chosen.

99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
it before.
I use it for all three start alignment options,

> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>
> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>
> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and gives
> us one less level here.
> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if we
> insist on having it, need not affect them.

The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
Not much of a problem for me personally.

So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?

Tracks
   Align
      End to End
      Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
      ---Divider---
      Move Selection with Track (on/off)
      ---Divider---
      Start to Zero
      Start to Cursor/Selection Start
      Start to Selection End
      End to Cursor/Selection Start
      End to Selection End

Robert



>
> --James.
>
>
>>
>> The Tracks Menu is not long, and it is easy to revert this to 2.1.3
>> state if we can't find some other solution. The only solution I can
>> think of, if feasible, is a checkbox at the top "Also Move Selection".
>> If that is checked then this greys out the two Align * commands.
>>
>> But you could do the same with Steve's dialogue idea.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:17, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 25 March 2017 at 09:20, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 25 March 2017 at 08:35, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 24 March 2017 at 10:14, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews
>>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And
>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>>>>>>>>>> un-necessary cascade.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> These are the Microsoft guidelines for menus:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742392(v=vs.85).aspx#menu_item_organization_and_order
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They suggest using two levels of sub menus should be rare. I don't
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> having the align commands down two levels is a good idea, as they
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> frequently used by keyboard users, and don't have default
>>>>>>>>> shortcuts.
>>>>>>>> Ergonomically I think the best solution would be to have all of the
>>>>>>>> align commands in one sub-menu, but how to name the command in just
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> few words: "Move Track to Start to Cursor / Selection Start and
>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>> Selection with Track"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the naming wouldn't be easy, would it.
>>>>>>> If it's not possible to get some sensible naming sorted out, then I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> the align commands should remain on two sub menus as they are now.
>>>>>>> Having
>>>>>>> the align commands down two levels is not user friendly.
>>>>>> I agree that it is not user friendly to push these commands down two
>>>>>> levels, but it also strikes me as poor design to have two top level
>>>>>> menu items for commands that are almost identical. When something
>>>>>> looks like poor design, it is usually an indication that it needs to
>>>>>> be thought through differently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As there are so many ways of "aligning", perhaps "aligning" should be
>>>>>> a dialog, with assignable global shortcuts for convenience.
>>>>>
>>>>> The existing structure is good enough.
>>>>> Audacity have very few resources for development.
>>>>> Is this something that needs to take up discussion and development
>>>>> time?
>>>> I think that "usability" is always worth attention. Imo it is even
>>>> more important than new features.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Think of all the existing bugs.
>>>>> Think of all the new features that users might want (including
>>>>> improved
>>>>> accessibility, which is sadly still lacking in a number of areas).
>>>> I was responding to your suggestion about changing the current (new)
>>>> layout. If you don't want to discus that, then I don't understand why
>>>> you bothered posting.
>>>
>>> Sorry for any confusion. By the existing menu structure for the align
>>> commands, I was referring to 2.1.3.
>>> I don't think that the align commands should be down two levels. I think
>>> they should be down only one level, however that is achieved. I don't
>>> think
>>> that having a dialog would be an improvement.
>>>
>>> I now want to exit from this discussion,
>>>
>>> David.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>> David.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cliff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they are much faster to find what you want
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and less clicks to get something done
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>>>>>>>>>>>> single-click to
>>>>>>>>>>>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Effects"
>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>> then hover
>>>>>>>>>>>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required
>>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity"
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Nyquist" and
>>>>>>>>>>>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>> click is
>>>>>>>>>>>> really necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one
>>>>>>>>>>>> click.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a
>>>>>>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>>>>>>> click
>>>>>>>>>>>> - but often
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer
>>>>>>>>>>>> menu
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> often  actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>>> move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the
>>>>>>>>>>> desired
>>>>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>>>>> and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the
>>>>>>>>>>> mouse
>>>>>>>>>>> down on
>>>>>>>>>>> the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> naturally
>>>>>>>>>>> drop down
>>>>>>>>>>> to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my
>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> bugs me.
>>>>>>>>>>> Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before
>>>>>>>>>>> moving
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>>>>>> horizontal
>>>>>>>>>>> I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> default.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
Tracks
    Align
       End to End
       Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
       ---Divider---
       Start to Zero
       Start to Cursor/Selection Start
       Start to Selection End
       End to Cursor/Selection Start
       End to Selection End
       ---Divider---
       Move Selection with Track (on/off)


Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
may gain an 'options' submenu there.

I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.

--James.


On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:

> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>> for these commands.
>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought it
>> was pointless.
>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>
> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
> selection is not moved ;)
> It depends on the command chosen.
>
> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
> it before.
> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>
>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>
>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>
>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and gives
>> us one less level here.
>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if we
>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>
> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>
> Tracks
>     Align
>        End to End
>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>        ---Divider---
>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>        ---Divider---
>        Start to Zero
>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>        Start to Selection End
>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>        End to Selection End
>
> Robert
>


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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:

> Tracks
>     Align
>        End to End
>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>        ---Divider---
>        Start to Zero
>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>        Start to Selection End
>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>        End to Selection End
>        ---Divider---
>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)


Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
miss it while arrowing down.
However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
"Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
"Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"

Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.

Thanks
Robert

>
>
> Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
> bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
> may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>
> I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
> more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
> be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
> modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>
> --James.
>
>
> On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>>> for these commands.
>>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought it
>>> was pointless.
>>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>
>> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>> selection is not moved ;)
>> It depends on the command chosen.
>>
>> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>> it before.
>> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>
>>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>
>>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>
>>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and gives
>>> us one less level here.
>>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if we
>>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>
>> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>
>> Tracks
>>     Align
>>        End to End
>>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>        ---Divider---
>>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>        ---Divider---
>>        Start to Zero
>>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>        Start to Selection End
>>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>        End to Selection End
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Stevethefiddle
On 26 March 2017 at 18:40, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> Tracks
>>     Align
>>        End to End
>>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>        ---Divider---
>>        Start to Zero
>>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>        Start to Selection End
>>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>        End to Selection End
>>        ---Divider---
>>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>
>
> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
> miss it while arrowing down.
> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>
> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.

I think that 'eventually', a dialog for aligning / arranging tracks
will offer the greatest flexibility / functionality, but I'm inclined
to agree with David that there are more pressing issues, so I think
that this latest suggestion looks like a good solution for now.

I see the importance of these commands for blind users, so yes please
do ask for feedback on the Audacity4blind mailing list. As a fall-back
position if the above suggestion is rejected, I think we should go
back to 2 menu items, one for moving tracks only and one for moving
tracks and selection.

Steve

>
> Thanks
> Robert
>>
>>
>> Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>> bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
>> may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>
>> I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
>> more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
>> be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>> modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>> On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>>>> for these commands.
>>>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought it
>>>> was pointless.
>>>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>>
>>> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>>> selection is not moved ;)
>>> It depends on the command chosen.
>>>
>>> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>>> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>>> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>>> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>>> it before.
>>> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>>
>>>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>>>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>>
>>>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>
>>>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and gives
>>>> us one less level here.
>>>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if we
>>>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>>
>>> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>>
>>> Tracks
>>>     Align
>>>        End to End
>>>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>        ---Divider---
>>>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>        ---Divider---
>>>        Start to Zero
>>>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>        Start to Selection End
>>>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>        End to Selection End
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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