Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-26 20:15 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:

> On 26 March 2017 at 18:40, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> Tracks
>>>     Align
>>>        End to End
>>>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>        ---Divider---
>>>        Start to Zero
>>>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>        Start to Selection End
>>>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>        End to Selection End
>>>        ---Divider---
>>>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>
>>
>> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>> miss it while arrowing down.
>> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>
>> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>
> I think that 'eventually', a dialog for aligning / arranging tracks
> will offer the greatest flexibility / functionality, but I'm inclined
> to agree with David that there are more pressing issues, so I think
> that this latest suggestion looks like a good solution for now.
>
> I see the importance of these commands for blind users, so yes please
> do ask for feedback on the Audacity4blind mailing list. As a fall-back
> position if the above suggestion is rejected, I think we should go
> back to 2 menu items, one for moving tracks only and one for moving
> tracks and selection.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>> Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>>> bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
>>> may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>>
>>> I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
>>> more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
>>> be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>>> modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>>>>> for these commands.
>>>>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought it
>>>>> was pointless.
>>>>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>>>
>>>> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>>>> selection is not moved ;)
>>>> It depends on the command chosen.
>>>>
>>>> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>>>> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>>>> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>>>> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>>>> it before.
>>>> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>>>
>>>>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>>>>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>>>
>>>>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>>
>>>>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>>>>> gives
>>>>> us one less level here.
>>>>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if we
>>>>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>>> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>>> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>>> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>>>
>>>> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>>>
>>>> Tracks
>>>>     Align
>>>>        End to End
>>>>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>>        ---Divider---
>>>>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>        ---Divider---
>>>>        Start to Zero
>>>>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>        Start to Selection End
>>>>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>        End to Selection End
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
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I fully agree Steve.
Thanks
Robert
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
> Tracks
>     Align
>        End to End
>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>        ---Divider---
>        Start to Zero
>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>        Start to Selection End
>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>        End to Selection End
>        ---Divider---
>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)


Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.

Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the Audacity4Blind list?

David.
 
The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
miss it while arrowing down.
However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
"Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
"Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"

Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.

Thanks
Robert
>
>
> Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
> bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
> may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>
> I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
> more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
> be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
> modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>
> --James.
>
>
> On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>>> for these commands.
>>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought it
>>> was pointless.
>>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>
>> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>> selection is not moved ;)
>> It depends on the command chosen.
>>
>> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>> it before.
>> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>
>>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>
>>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>
>>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and gives
>>> us one less level here.
>>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if we
>>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>
>> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>
>> Tracks
>>     Align
>>        End to End
>>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>        ---Divider---
>>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>        ---Divider---
>>        Start to Zero
>>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>        Start to Selection End
>>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>        End to Selection End
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
Hi David
I Didn't  get around yet to ask.

Main problem:
What to ask specifically.

For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
one).
Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
probably in preferences).
Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).

Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
different from 2.1.3.

Robert

2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:

> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> > Tracks
>> >     Align
>> >        End to End
>> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >        ---Divider---
>> >        Start to Zero
>> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >        Start to Selection End
>> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >        End to Selection End
>> >        ---Divider---
>> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>
>>
>> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>
>
> Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the Audacity4Blind
> list?
>
> David.
>
>
>> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>> miss it while arrowing down.
>> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>
>> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Robert
>> >
>> >
>> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
>> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>> >
>> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
>> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
>> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>> >
>> > --James.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>> >>>> for these commands.
>> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought
>> >>> it
>> >>> was pointless.
>> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>> >>>
>> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>> >> selection is not moved ;)
>> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>> >>
>> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>> >> it before.
>> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>> >>
>> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>> >>>
>> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >>>
>> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>> gives
>> >>> us one less level here.
>> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if
>> >>> we
>> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>> >>
>> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>> >>
>> >> Tracks
>> >>     Align
>> >>        End to End
>> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >>        ---Divider---
>> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >>        ---Divider---
>> >>        Start to Zero
>> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >>        Start to Selection End
>> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >>        End to Selection End
>> >>
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

James Crook
On 4/10/2017 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:

> Hi David
> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>
> Main problem:
> What to ask specifically.
>
> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
> one).
> Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
> probably in preferences).
> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>
> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
> different from 2.1.3.
Thanks Robert.  That's a new bug.

It's caused by making it possible to change the colour of the text. The
existing radio button controls there have empty strings, because their
text colour can't be changed, and new text strings which can have their
colour changed are in place (but not made accessible).



>
> Robert
>
> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> Tracks
>>>>      Align
>>>>         End to End
>>>>         Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>         Start to Zero
>>>>         Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>         Start to Selection End
>>>>         End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>         End to Selection End
>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>         Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>
>>> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>>> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>>> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>>
>> Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the Audacity4Blind
>> list?
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>>> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>>> miss it while arrowing down.
>>> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>>> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>>> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>>
>>> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>>>> bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
>>>> may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
>>>> more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
>>>> be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>>>> modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>>>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>>>>>> for these commands.
>>>>>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> was pointless.
>>>>>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>>>>> selection is not moved ;)
>>>>> It depends on the command chosen.
>>>>>
>>>>> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>>>>> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>>>>> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>>>>> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>>>>> it before.
>>>>> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>>>>
>>>>>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>>>>>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>>> gives
>>>>>> us one less level here.
>>>>>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>>>> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>>>> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>>>> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tracks
>>>>>      Align
>>>>>         End to End
>>>>>         Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>>         Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>>         Start to Zero
>>>>>         Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>>         Start to Selection End
>>>>>         End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>>         End to Selection End
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi David
I Didn't  get around yet to ask.

Main problem:
What to ask specifically.

For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
one).

That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?

Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align sub menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader users use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by default, the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does. Given this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option should be off by default.

One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in each of the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to remember the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.

David.

Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
probably in preferences).
Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).

Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
different from 2.1.3.

Robert

2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> > Tracks
>> >     Align
>> >        End to End
>> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >        ---Divider---
>> >        Start to Zero
>> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >        Start to Selection End
>> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >        End to Selection End
>> >        ---Divider---
>> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>
>>
>> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>
>
> Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the Audacity4Blind
> list?
>
> David.
>
>
>> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>> miss it while arrowing down.
>> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>
>> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Robert
>> >
>> >
>> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
>> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>> >
>> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
>> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
>> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>> >
>> > --James.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>> >>>> for these commands.
>> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought
>> >>> it
>> >>> was pointless.
>> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>> >>>
>> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>> >> selection is not moved ;)
>> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>> >>
>> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>> >> it before.
>> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>> >>
>> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>> >>>
>> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >>>
>> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>> gives
>> >>> us one less level here.
>> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if
>> >>> we
>> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>> >>
>> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>> >>
>> >> Tracks
>> >>     Align
>> >>        End to End
>> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >>        ---Divider---
>> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >>        ---Divider---
>> >>        Start to Zero
>> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >>        Start to Selection End
>> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >>        End to Selection End
>> >>
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by James Crook
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:27 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 4/10/2017 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
> Hi David
> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>
> Main problem:
> What to ask specifically.
>
> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
> one).
> Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
> probably in preferences).
> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>
> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
> different from 2.1.3.
Thanks Robert.  That's a new bug.

I've add this to Bugzilla,

David.
 

It's caused by making it possible to change the colour of the text. The
existing radio button controls there have empty strings, because their
text colour can't be changed, and new text strings which can have their
colour changed are in place (but not made accessible).



>
> Robert
>
> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> Tracks
>>>>      Align
>>>>         End to End
>>>>         Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>         Start to Zero
>>>>         Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>         Start to Selection End
>>>>         End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>         End to Selection End
>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>         Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>
>>> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>>> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>>> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>>
>> Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the Audacity4Blind
>> list?
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>>> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>>> miss it while arrowing down.
>>> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>>> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>>> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>>
>>> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>>>> bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we then
>>>> may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You have
>>>> more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will eventually
>>>> be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>>>> modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>>>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>>>>>> for these commands.
>>>>>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I thought
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> was pointless.
>>>>>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where the
>>>>> selection is not moved ;)
>>>>> It depends on the command chosen.
>>>>>
>>>>> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>>>>> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>>>>> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the one
>>>>> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I had
>>>>> it before.
>>>>> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>>>>
>>>>>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with the
>>>>>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>>> gives
>>>>>> us one less level here.
>>>>>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option, if
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>>>> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>>>> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>>>> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tracks
>>>>>      Align
>>>>>         End to End
>>>>>         Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>>         Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>>         ---Divider---
>>>>>         Start to Zero
>>>>>         Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>>         Start to Selection End
>>>>>         End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>>         End to Selection End
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by David Bailes-3
2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:

> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi David
>> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>>
>> Main problem:
>> What to ask specifically.
>>
>> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>> one).
>>
>
> That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>

I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
Should we include other users as well?

Robert

> Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align sub
> menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader users
> use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by default,
> the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does. Given
> this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option should
> be off by default.
>
> One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in each of
> the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to remember
> the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
> workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>
> David.
>
> Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>> probably in preferences).
>> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>>
>> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>> different from 2.1.3.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > Tracks
>> >> >     Align
>> >> >        End to End
>> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >        Start to Zero
>> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >        Start to Selection End
>> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >        End to Selection End
>> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>> Audacity4Blind
>> > list?
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >
>> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >> Robert
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we
>> then
>> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>> >> > have
>> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>> >> > eventually
>> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>> >> >
>> >> > --James.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>> >> >>>> for these commands.
>> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>> >> >>> thought
>> >> >>> it
>> >> >>> was pointless.
>> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>> >> >> had
>> >> >> it before.
>> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>> >> gives
>> >> >>> us one less level here.
>> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option,
>> >> >>> if
>> >> >>> we
>> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tracks
>> >> >>     Align
>> >> >>        End to End
>> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >>        Start to Zero
>> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >>        End to Selection End
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Robert
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> ------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> ------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Gale
Administrator
Should you try Q2A to ask about usage of Align?

Is Q2A accessible?



Gale


On 11 April 2017 at 22:18, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David
>>> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>>>
>>> Main problem:
>>> What to ask specifically.
>>>
>>> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>>> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>>> one).
>>>
>>
>> That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>>
>
> I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
> I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
> Should we include other users as well?
>
> Robert
>> Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align sub
>> menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader users
>> use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by default,
>> the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does. Given
>> this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option should
>> be off by default.
>>
>> One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in each of
>> the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to remember
>> the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
>> workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>>
>> David.
>>
>> Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>>> probably in preferences).
>>> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>>> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>>> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>>> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>>>
>>> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>>> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>>> different from 2.1.3.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>>> > <[hidden email]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> > Tracks
>>> >> >     Align
>>> >> >        End to End
>>> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>> >> >        ---Divider---
>>> >> >        Start to Zero
>>> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >        Start to Selection End
>>> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >        End to Selection End
>>> >> >        ---Divider---
>>> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>>> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>>> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>>> Audacity4Blind
>>> > list?
>>> >
>>> > David.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>>> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>>> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>>> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>>> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>> >>
>>> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks
>>> >> Robert
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>>> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we
>>> then
>>> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>>> >> > have
>>> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>>> >> > eventually
>>> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>>> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --James.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>>> >> >>>> for these commands.
>>> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>>> >> >>> thought
>>> >> >>> it
>>> >> >>> was pointless.
>>> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>>> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>>> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>>> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the
>>> >> >> one
>>> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>>> >> >> had
>>> >> >> it before.
>>> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with
>>> >> >>> the
>>> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>>> >> gives
>>> >> >>> us one less level here.
>>> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option,
>>> >> >>> if
>>> >> >>> we
>>> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Tracks
>>> >> >>     Align
>>> >> >>        End to End
>>> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>> >> >>        Start to Zero
>>> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>>> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >>        End to Selection End
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Robert
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> ------------------
>>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> > [hidden email]
>>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> ------------------
>>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi David
>> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>>
>> Main problem:
>> What to ask specifically.
>>
>> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>> one).
>>
>
> That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>

I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
Should we include other users as well?

Hi Robert, I think I would just post the questions on Audacity4Blind, rather than creating a form. I think you would get more people replying - I hate having to fill in forms.
I too don't think we'll get that many replies, but the ones that we get may well be very useful.
By including other users, do you mean asking the questions on the Audacity forums? There would be nothing lost doing this, and might get us some more information on the current usage.

David.
 

Robert
> Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align sub
> menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader users
> use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by default,
> the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does. Given
> this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option should
> be off by default.
>
> One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in each of
> the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to remember
> the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
> workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>
> David.
>
> Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>> probably in preferences).
>> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>>
>> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>> different from 2.1.3.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > Tracks
>> >> >     Align
>> >> >        End to End
>> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >        Start to Zero
>> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >        Start to Selection End
>> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >        End to Selection End
>> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>> Audacity4Blind
>> > list?
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> >
>> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options like
>> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >> Robert
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we
>> then
>> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>> >> > have
>> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>> >> > eventually
>> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>> >> >
>> >> > --James.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default shortcuts
>> >> >>>> for these commands.
>> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>> >> >>> thought
>> >> >>> it
>> >> >>> was pointless.
>> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>> >> >> had
>> >> >> it before.
>> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands and
>> >> gives
>> >> >>> us one less level here.
>> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option,
>> >> >>> if
>> >> >>> we
>> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tracks
>> >> >>     Align
>> >> >>        End to End
>> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >>        Start to Zero
>> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >>        End to Selection End
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Robert
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> ------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> ------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-04-12 9:56 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> 2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi David
>> >> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>> >>
>> >> Main problem:
>> >> What to ask specifically.
>> >>
>> >> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>> >> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>> >> one).
>> >>
>> >
>> > That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>> >
>>
>> I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
>> I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
>> Should we include other users as well?
>>
>
> Hi Robert, I think I would just post the questions on Audacity4Blind,
> rather than creating a form. I think you would get more people replying - I
> hate having to fill in forms.

I don't like it either.
Without no gain, people will probably not take the pain.
Still, I can fill in the form, once answers drop in.

> I too don't think we'll get that many replies, but the ones that we get may
> well be very useful.
It won't be representative though.
Since you are the one with the higher reputation, it would be nice if
you could set up and send the email.

> By including other users, do you mean asking the questions on the Audacity
> forums? There would be nothing lost doing this, and might get us some more
> information on the current usage.
I thought so too.
Let's await the outcome of the first survey.
Thanks

Robert

>
> David.
>
>
>>
>> Robert
>> > Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align
>> > sub
>> > menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader
>> users
>> > use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by
>> > default,
>> > the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does.
>> Given
>> > this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option
>> > should
>> > be off by default.
>> >
>> > One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in
>> > each
>> of
>> > the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to
>> > remember
>> > the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
>> > workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> > Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>> >> probably in preferences).
>> >> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>> >> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>> >> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>> >> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>> >>
>> >> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>> >> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>> >> different from 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>> >> > <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >> > Tracks
>> >> >> >     Align
>> >> >> >        End to End
>> >> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >        Start to Zero
>> >> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >        Start to Selection End
>> >> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >        End to Selection End
>> >> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>> >> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>> >> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>> >> Audacity4Blind
>> >> > list?
>> >> >
>> >> > David.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users
>> >> >> don't
>> >> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>> >> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options
>> like
>> >> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>> >> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks
>> >> >> Robert
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there,
>> >> >> > we
>> >> then
>> >> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>> >> >> > eventually
>> >> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet,
>> >> >> > but
>> >> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --James.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two
>> >> >> >>>> levels.
>> >> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default
>> shortcuts
>> >> >> >>>> for these commands.
>> >> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>> >> >> >>> thought
>> >> >> >>> it
>> >> >> >>> was pointless.
>> >> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>> >> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection
>> >> >> >> Start"
>> >> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds
>> >> >> >> now.
>> >> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes,
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> one
>> >> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>> >> >> >> had
>> >> >> >> it before.
>> >> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection
>> >> >> >>> with
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands
>> and
>> >> >> gives
>> >> >> >>> us one less level here.
>> >> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless
>> >> >> >>> option,
>> >> >> >>> if
>> >> >> >>> we
>> >> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> >> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> >> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> >> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Tracks
>> >> >> >>     Align
>> >> >> >>        End to End
>> >> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >>        Start to Zero
>> >> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>> >> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >>        End to Selection End
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Robert
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> ------------------
>> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> ------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> ------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by Gale
2017-04-12 5:11 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
> Should you try Q2A to ask about usage of Align?
>
Shouldn't that rather be integrated into an existing forum?
I thought it would be similar to the system used on Stack Overflow
where good answers can bubble up.
In fact, it would be ideal for the Audacity4Blind community since
searching for a already answered question would be much easier.

> Is Q2A accessible?
>
I have no idea, it depends on how deep you dive  into it.

But perhaps you mean a totally other thing.

Robert

>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 11 April 2017 at 22:18, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi David
>>>> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>>>>
>>>> Main problem:
>>>> What to ask specifically.
>>>>
>>>> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>>>> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>>>> one).
>>>>
>>>
>>> That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>>>
>>
>> I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
>> I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
>> Should we include other users as well?
>>
>> Robert
>>> Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align sub
>>> menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader
>>> users
>>> use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by default,
>>> the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does.
>>> Given
>>> this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option should
>>> be off by default.
>>>
>>> One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in each
>>> of
>>> the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to remember
>>> the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
>>> workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>> Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>>>> probably in preferences).
>>>> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>>>> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>>>> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>>>> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>>>>
>>>> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>>>> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>>>> different from 2.1.3.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>>> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>>>> > <[hidden email]>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >> > Tracks
>>>> >> >     Align
>>>> >> >        End to End
>>>> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>> >> >        ---Divider---
>>>> >> >        Start to Zero
>>>> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>> >> >        Start to Selection End
>>>> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>> >> >        End to Selection End
>>>> >> >        ---Divider---
>>>> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>>>> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>>>> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>>>> Audacity4Blind
>>>> > list?
>>>> >
>>>> > David.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>>>> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>>>> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options
>>>> >> like
>>>> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>>>> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thanks
>>>> >> Robert
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>>>> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we
>>>> then
>>>> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>>>> >> > have
>>>> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>>>> >> > eventually
>>>> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>>>> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --James.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default
>>>> >> >>>> shortcuts
>>>> >> >>>> for these commands.
>>>> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>>>> >> >>> thought
>>>> >> >>> it
>>>> >> >>> was pointless.
>>>> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>>>> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>>>> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>>>> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the
>>>> >> >> one
>>>> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>>>> >> >> had
>>>> >> >> it before.
>>>> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with
>>>> >> >>> the
>>>> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands
>>>> >> >>> and
>>>> >> gives
>>>> >> >>> us one less level here.
>>>> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option,
>>>> >> >>> if
>>>> >> >>> we
>>>> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>>> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>>> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>>> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Tracks
>>>> >> >>     Align
>>>> >> >>        End to End
>>>> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>>> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>>> >> >>        Start to Zero
>>>> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>>>> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>> >> >>        End to Selection End
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Robert
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> ------------------
>>>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> >> > [hidden email]
>>>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> ------------------
>>>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> >> [hidden email]
>>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 9:23 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-04-12 9:56 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> 2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi David
>> >> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>> >>
>> >> Main problem:
>> >> What to ask specifically.
>> >>
>> >> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>> >> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>> >> one).
>> >>
>> >
>> > That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>> >
>>
>> I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
>> I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
>> Should we include other users as well?
>>
>
> Hi Robert, I think I would just post the questions on Audacity4Blind,
> rather than creating a form. I think you would get more people replying - I
> hate having to fill in forms.

I don't like it either.
Without no gain, people will probably not take the pain.
Still, I can fill in the form, once answers drop in.

> I too don't think we'll get that many replies, but the ones that we get may
> well be very useful.
It won't be representative though.
Since you are the one with the higher reputation, it would be nice if
you could set up and send the email.

OK, I'll do this sometime. If you think I've missed out any relevant questions, do ask them.

In passing, and off topic, if you have any spare time, I'd appreciate if you gave me some feedback on the clip stuff which has now been committed:
1. clip left, and clip right which aren't in any menu.
2. On the cursor to sub menu, there are a couple of new commands for clip boundaries.
3. The clip boundaries sub menu on the select menu.
4. The Zoom one pixel to sub menu on the view menu.

Currently the commands with use the next/previous clip boundary use the focused track. Both James and Gale have suggested this is changed to: if any tracks are selected, the selected tracks, otherwise use all the tracks.
I'm not sure if this should also apply to select next/previous clip. It might be good to have these work just on the focused track - it needs more thinking about.

In addition, these are some notes on clip left/right which I've previously posted:
The aim is that they have similar functionality to using the mouse with the shift tool.
So Clip left/right is roughly equivalent to clicking in the focused track at the time given by selection start, and dragging one pixel to the left/right. To be more precise:

1. If the focused track does not contain selected audio, then  if selection start lies with a clip, that clip is moved, and selection start/the selection is also moved. (Using a mouse, selection start/the selection isn't moved.)

2. If the focused track contains selected audio, then if selection start lies within a clip, then that clip, along with all the other clips in any track which include audio which is selected, are moved, and the selected time range is moved.

3. If Sync lock tracks is one, then the relevant additional clips are moved.

thanks,
David.


> By including other users, do you mean asking the questions on the Audacity
> forums? There would be nothing lost doing this, and might get us some more
> information on the current usage.
I thought so too.
Let's await the outcome of the first survey.
Thanks

Robert
>
> David.
>
>
>>
>> Robert
>> > Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align
>> > sub
>> > menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader
>> users
>> > use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by
>> > default,
>> > the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does.
>> Given
>> > this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option
>> > should
>> > be off by default.
>> >
>> > One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in
>> > each
>> of
>> > the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to
>> > remember
>> > the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
>> > workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>> >
>> > David.
>> >
>> > Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>> >> probably in preferences).
>> >> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>> >> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>> >> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>> >> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>> >>
>> >> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>> >> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>> >> different from 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> >> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>> >> > <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >> > Tracks
>> >> >> >     Align
>> >> >> >        End to End
>> >> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >        Start to Zero
>> >> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >        Start to Selection End
>> >> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >        End to Selection End
>> >> >> >        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>> >> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>> >> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>> >> Audacity4Blind
>> >> > list?
>> >> >
>> >> > David.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users
>> >> >> don't
>> >> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>> >> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options
>> like
>> >> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>> >> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks
>> >> >> Robert
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there,
>> >> >> > we
>> >> then
>> >> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>> >> >> > eventually
>> >> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet,
>> >> >> > but
>> >> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --James.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>> >> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two
>> >> >> >>>> levels.
>> >> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default
>> shortcuts
>> >> >> >>>> for these commands.
>> >> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>> >> >> >>> thought
>> >> >> >>> it
>> >> >> >>> was pointless.
>> >> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>> >> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection
>> >> >> >> Start"
>> >> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds
>> >> >> >> now.
>> >> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes,
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> one
>> >> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>> >> >> >> had
>> >> >> >> it before.
>> >> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection
>> >> >> >>> with
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands
>> and
>> >> >> gives
>> >> >> >>> us one less level here.
>> >> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless
>> >> >> >>> option,
>> >> >> >>> if
>> >> >> >>> we
>> >> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>> >> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>> >> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>> >> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Tracks
>> >> >> >>     Align
>> >> >> >>        End to End
>> >> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>> >> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>> >> >> >>        ---Divider---
>> >> >> >>        Start to Zero
>> >> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>> >> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>> >> >> >>        End to Selection End
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Robert
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> ------------------
>> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> ------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> ------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
David (and others)
Just in case that you want to look at the "Align Tracks" form:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1tcPIZboWqTYno1PiflRjAzgjBMP3VPLx2nCIPyX9XyQ/edit?usp=sharing

Robert

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
Typically, surveys on Audacity Forum attract very little interest.

The -users list may get you a little more input:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-users .

There are some VI users on that list who AFAIK are not on
audacity4blind (as well of course as sighted users).



Gale


On 12 April 2017 at 09:23, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2017-04-12 9:56 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>> > On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi
>>> > <[hidden email]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Hi David
>>> >> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>>> >>
>>> >> Main problem:
>>> >> What to ask specifically.
>>> >>
>>> >> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>>> >> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>>> >> one).
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>>> >
>>>
>>> I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
>>> I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
>>> Should we include other users as well?
>>>
>>
>> Hi Robert, I think I would just post the questions on Audacity4Blind,
>> rather than creating a form. I think you would get more people replying - I
>> hate having to fill in forms.
>
> I don't like it either.
> Without no gain, people will probably not take the pain.
> Still, I can fill in the form, once answers drop in.
>
>> I too don't think we'll get that many replies, but the ones that we get may
>> well be very useful.
> It won't be representative though.
> Since you are the one with the higher reputation, it would be nice if
> you could set up and send the email.
>
>> By including other users, do you mean asking the questions on the Audacity
>> forums? There would be nothing lost doing this, and might get us some more
>> information on the current usage.
> I thought so too.
> Let's await the outcome of the first survey.
> Thanks
>
> Robert
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Robert
>>> > Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align
>>> > sub
>>> > menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader
>>> users
>>> > use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by
>>> > default,
>>> > the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does.
>>> Given
>>> > this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option
>>> > should
>>> > be off by default.
>>> >
>>> > One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in
>>> > each
>>> of
>>> > the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to
>>> > remember
>>> > the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
>>> > workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>>> >
>>> > David.
>>> >
>>> > Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>>> >> probably in preferences).
>>> >> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>>> >> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>>> >> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>>> >> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>>> >>
>>> >> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>>> >> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>>> >> different from 2.1.3.
>>> >>
>>> >> Robert
>>> >>
>>> >> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>>> >> > <[hidden email]>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> >> > Tracks
>>> >> >> >     Align
>>> >> >> >        End to End
>>> >> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>> >> >> >        ---Divider---
>>> >> >> >        Start to Zero
>>> >> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >> >        Start to Selection End
>>> >> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >> >        End to Selection End
>>> >> >> >        ---Divider---
>>> >> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>>> >> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>>> >> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>>> >> Audacity4Blind
>>> >> > list?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > David.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users
>>> >> >> don't
>>> >> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>>> >> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options
>>> like
>>> >> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>>> >> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Thanks
>>> >> >> Robert
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards
>>> >> >> > the
>>> >> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there,
>>> >> >> > we
>>> >> then
>>> >> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>>> >> >> > have
>>> >> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>>> >> >> > eventually
>>> >> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet,
>>> >> >> > but
>>> >> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > --James.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>> >> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> >> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two
>>> >> >> >>>> levels.
>>> >> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default
>>> shortcuts
>>> >> >> >>>> for these commands.
>>> >> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>>> >> >> >>> thought
>>> >> >> >>> it
>>> >> >> >>> was pointless.
>>> >> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>>> >> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection
>>> >> >> >> Start"
>>> >> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds
>>> >> >> >> now.
>>> >> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes,
>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> one
>>> >> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>>> >> >> >> had
>>> >> >> >> it before.
>>> >> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection
>>> >> >> >>> with
>>> >> >> >>> the
>>> >> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands
>>> and
>>> >> >> gives
>>> >> >> >>> us one less level here.
>>> >> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless
>>> >> >> >>> option,
>>> >> >> >>> if
>>> >> >> >>> we
>>> >> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>> >> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>> >> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>> >> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Tracks
>>> >> >> >>     Align
>>> >> >> >>        End to End
>>> >> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>> >> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>> >> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>> >> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>> >> >> >>        Start to Zero
>>> >> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>>> >> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>> >> >> >>        End to Selection End
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Robert
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> ------------------
>>> >> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> >> > [hidden email]
>>> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> ------------------
>>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> ------------------
>>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On 12 April 2017 at 09:58, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2017-04-12 5:11 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>> Should you try Q2A to ask about usage of Align?
>>
> Shouldn't that rather be integrated into an existing forum?
> I thought it would be similar to the system used on Stack Overflow
> where good answers can bubble up.

That is what should happen with Q2A too.

From what I see online, Q2A could theoretically be integrated with e.g.
the Audacity Forum database so signing into one service signed you
into the other service.

I don't think we have any real users of Q2A apart from ourselves.

Q2A was mentioned on our Facebook page. If we want Q2A
perhaps there should be a blog post about it?


> In fact, it would be ideal for the Audacity4Blind community since
> searching for a already answered question would be much easier.
>
>> Is Q2A accessible?
>>
> I have no idea, it depends on how deep you dive  into it.
>
> But perhaps you mean a totally other thing.

I meant, would Audacity4Blind users be able to navigate Q2A,
answer a question or upvote a question or answer?



Gale


>> On 11 April 2017 at 22:18, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> 2017-04-11 14:50 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi David
>>>>> I Didn't  get around yet to ask.
>>>>>
>>>>> Main problem:
>>>>> What to ask specifically.
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance, it would be nice to know what align tools are actually
>>>>> in use; which ones have a shortcut assigned by the user (and which
>>>>> one).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That seems like a good question to ask. Do you want to ask it?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'll prepare a google forms survey and send you the link to modify it.
>>> I have not very high hopes that the feed back will be overwealming.
>>> Should we include other users as well?
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>> Currently there's a "move selection with tracks" option in the align sub
>>>> menu which is on by default. My best guess is that most screen reader
>>>> users
>>>> use the old align menu, which doesn't move the selection. So by default,
>>>> the align menu in 2.2.0 doesn't do what the align menu in 2.1.3 does.
>>>> Given
>>>> this line of thought, I unsurprisingly think that the above option should
>>>> be off by default.
>>>>
>>>> One concern is if some people had assigned shortcuts to commands in each
>>>> of
>>>> the previous sub menus. With the new scheme, they would have to remember
>>>> the current state of the "move selection with tracks option" for their
>>>> workflow not to be slowed down. Hence the need to know what people use.
>>>>
>>>> David.
>>>>
>>>> Further, what commands can be removed from the menus (keep them
>>>>> probably in preferences).
>>>>> Some seem to me redundant, e.g. aligning with zero (and moving
>>>>> selection) can as well be achieved by pressing home and align with
>>>>> cursor or when keeping the right boundary as well by setting start
>>>>> time to 0 (provided that "Length" is checked).
>>>>>
>>>>> Apropos Length, neither Length nor End (Selection tool bar)are spoken
>>>>> in the current Audacity 2.2.0 alpha and the tool bar is in general
>>>>> different from 2.1.3.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> 2017-04-10 11:07 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Robert Hänggi
>>>>> > <[hidden email]>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> 2017-03-26 19:20 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> >> > Tracks
>>>>> >> >     Align
>>>>> >> >        End to End
>>>>> >> >        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>>> >> >        ---Divider---
>>>>> >> >        Start to Zero
>>>>> >> >        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>> >> >        Start to Selection End
>>>>> >> >        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>> >> >        End to Selection End
>>>>> >> >        ---Divider---
>>>>> >> >        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Excellent. I will temporarily change it to that.
>>>>> >> I will in parallel ask on the Audacity4blind mailinglist since they
>>>>> >> all use the keyboard and might have a different view on that.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hi Robert, are you still intending to get feedback from the
>>>>> Audacity4Blind
>>>>> > list?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > David.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> The reason I've put the option field above is that those users don't
>>>>> >> miss it while arrowing down.
>>>>> >> However, your reasoning makes sense, should there ever be options
>>>>> >> like
>>>>> >> "Break up Sync-Locked Tracks (on/off)"
>>>>> >> "Treat Tracks Separately (on/off)"
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Perhaps, Steve will have a sudden moment of enlightenment.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Thanks
>>>>> >> Robert
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Would work.  I'm trying to move the on/off options down towards the
>>>>> >> > bottom of menus, with the idea that if there are several there, we
>>>>> then
>>>>> >> > may gain an 'options' submenu there.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I don't have much skin in the game on this particular menu.  You
>>>>> >> > have
>>>>> >> > more, and should make your call.  It is likely that it will
>>>>> >> > eventually
>>>>> >> > be Steve that puts in, mostly as suggested in your spreadsheet, but
>>>>> >> > modified as doer-decides where he has a strong opinion.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > --James.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On 3/26/2017 5:59 PM, Robert Hänggi wrote:
>>>>> >> >> 2017-03-26 10:49 GMT+02:00, James Crook <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> >> >>> On 3/26/2017 4:13 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>> >> >>>> I had not noticed that the Align commands were down two levels.
>>>>> >> >>>> I agree that is unacceptable given there are no default
>>>>> >> >>>> shortcuts
>>>>> >> >>>> for these commands.
>>>>> >> >>> I think we can drop the case of not moving the selection.  I
>>>>> >> >>> thought
>>>>> >> >>> it
>>>>> >> >>> was pointless.
>>>>> >> >>> That gives one less level of menu.
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> Amazing how opinions can differ. I actually use only those where
>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>> >> >> selection is not moved ;)
>>>>> >> >> It depends on the command chosen.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> 99 % of the time, I use "Align Start with Cursor/Selection Start"
>>>>> >> >> without moving the selection since I wanna hear how it sounds now.
>>>>> >> >> Of course, I have assigned a shortcut for that--Shift+a, yes, the
>>>>> >> >> one
>>>>> >> >> for "Stop and Set Cursor" that has recently been abandoned but I
>>>>> >> >> had
>>>>> >> >> it before.
>>>>> >> >> I use it for all three start alignment options,
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>> IF there is insistence that moving/not-moving the selection with
>>>>> >> >>> the
>>>>> >> >>> track is an option then +1 to a new option in that menu:
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >>> Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >>> (Default on) which also drops out the five duplicated commands
>>>>> >> >>> and
>>>>> >> gives
>>>>> >> >>> us one less level here.
>>>>> >> >>> No need to grey out the top two items.  The new pointless option,
>>>>> >> >>> if
>>>>> >> >>> we
>>>>> >> >>> insist on having it, need not affect them.
>>>>> >> >> The downside is--as mentioned before--that you can't display any
>>>>> >> >> user-defined shortcuts without some ugly hacks.
>>>>> >> >> Not much of a problem for me personally.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> So, how do you want the Align sub menu to look like?
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Tracks
>>>>> >> >>     Align
>>>>> >> >>        End to End
>>>>> >> >>        Together at Average Start     (to make it clearer)
>>>>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>>>> >> >>        Move Selection with Track (on/off)
>>>>> >> >>        ---Divider---
>>>>> >> >>        Start to Zero
>>>>> >> >>        Start to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>> >> >>        Start to Selection End
>>>>> >> >>        End to Cursor/Selection Start
>>>>> >> >>        End to Selection End
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Robert
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >> ------------------
>>>>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> >> > [hidden email]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >> ------------------
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>>>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-04-12 23:23 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:

> On 12 April 2017 at 09:58, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2017-04-12 5:11 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>>> Should you try Q2A to ask about usage of Align?
>>>
>> Shouldn't that rather be integrated into an existing forum?
>> I thought it would be similar to the system used on Stack Overflow
>> where good answers can bubble up.
>
> That is what should happen with Q2A too.
>
> From what I see online, Q2A could theoretically be integrated with e.g.
> the Audacity Forum database so signing into one service signed you
> into the other service.
>
> I don't think we have any real users of Q2A apart from ourselves.
>
> Q2A was mentioned on our Facebook page. If we want Q2A
> perhaps there should be a blog post about it?
>
>
>> In fact, it would be ideal for the Audacity4Blind community since
>> searching for a already answered question would be much easier.
>>
>>> Is Q2A accessible?
>>>
>> I have no idea, it depends on how deep you dive  into it.
>>
>> But perhaps you mean a totally other thing.
>
> I meant, would Audacity4Blind users be able to navigate Q2A,
> answer a question or upvote a question or answer?
>
I suppose so. The only thing that is actually not accessible is
certain content within a post (formulas for example that are not MML
or plain text).
The answer box is most of the time at the bottom "Your answer" and is
reachable by two keypresses (easier than looking for "Post a reply").
There shouldn't be a problem.

Good idea with the user mailing list, I'm no member though.

Have you tried the survey form?
It can be send per email with the first question page in the mail
itself or posted on Facebook.
However, I will wait for what David might come up with.

Robert

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
David (and others)
Just in case that you want to look at the "Align Tracks" form:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1tcPIZboWqTYno1PiflRjAzgjBMP3VPLx2nCIPyX9XyQ/edit?usp=sharing

thanks Robert. I've just sent a message to Audacity4Blind requesting feedback. I've decided to ask fewer questions initially, but may ask more questions later,

David.
 


Robert

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Re: Critique of new 2.2.0 menu structure

Robert Hänggi
2017-04-13 10:32 GMT+02:00, David Bailes <[hidden email]>:

> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> David (and others)
>> Just in case that you want to look at the "Align Tracks" form:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1tcPIZboWqTYno1PiflRjAzgjBMP3V
>> PLx2nCIPyX9XyQ/edit?usp=sharing
>
>
> thanks Robert. I've just sent a message to Audacity4Blind requesting
> feedback. I've decided to ask fewer questions initially, but may ask more
> questions later,
>
> David.
>

Thanks David
Very well written.
Let's hope for the best.
Robert

>
>>
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
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>>
>

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