Fwd: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1315

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Fwd: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1315

Vaughan Johnson-4

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bobby Kent <[hidden email]>
Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 4:10 AM
Subject: RE: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1315
To: Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>


Please do, thanks.

 

From: Vaughan Johnson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 03:31
To: Bobby Kent
Subject: Re: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1315

 

May I forward this to the audacity-quality list, where it will get more attention?

- Vaughan

 

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Bobby Kent <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ran into this on my Gentoo Linux system.  Fixed it (for mp3 at least) with the following inelegant patch:

 

--- A/src/export/Export.cpp     2017-07-18 17:08:11.254556205 -0400

+++ B/src/export/Export.cpp     2017-07-18 17:38:25.405965890 -0400

@@ -518,6 +518,8 @@

    }

    maskString.RemoveLast();

+   wxString defext = mPlugins[mFormat]->GetExtension(mSubFormat).Lower();

+

//Bug 1304: Set a default path if none was given.  For Export.

#ifdef __WIN32__

    wxFileName tmpFile;

@@ -539,7 +541,7 @@

       FileDialog fd(mProject,

                     mFileDialogTitle,

                     mFilename.GetPath(),

-                    mFilename.GetFullName(),

+                    mFilename.GetFullName() + "." + defext,

                     maskString,

                     wxFD_SAVE | wxRESIZE_BORDER);

       mDialog = &fd;

@@ -581,7 +583,7 @@

       }

       wxString ext = mFilename.GetExt();

-      wxString defext = mPlugins[mFormat]->GetExtension(mSubFormat).Lower();

+      defext = mPlugins[mFormat]->GetExtension(mSubFormat).Lower();

       //

       // Check the extension - add the default if it's not there,

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

 

 



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Re: Fwd: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1315

Paul Licameli
Thanks.  I have promoted that fix, with some adaptations.


PRL


On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bobby Kent <[hidden email]>
Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 4:10 AM
Subject: RE: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1315
To: Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>


Please do, thanks.

 

From: Vaughan Johnson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 03:31
To: Bobby Kent
Subject: Re: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1315

 

May I forward this to the audacity-quality list, where it will get more attention?

- Vaughan

 

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Bobby Kent <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ran into this on my Gentoo Linux system.  Fixed it (for mp3 at least) with the following inelegant patch:

 

--- A/src/export/Export.cpp     2017-07-18 17:08:11.254556205 -0400

+++ B/src/export/Export.cpp     2017-07-18 17:38:25.405965890 -0400

@@ -518,6 +518,8 @@

    }

    maskString.RemoveLast();

+   wxString defext = mPlugins[mFormat]->GetExtension(mSubFormat).Lower();

+

//Bug 1304: Set a default path if none was given.  For Export.

#ifdef __WIN32__

    wxFileName tmpFile;

@@ -539,7 +541,7 @@

       FileDialog fd(mProject,

                     mFileDialogTitle,

                     mFilename.GetPath(),

-                    mFilename.GetFullName(),

+                    mFilename.GetFullName() + "." + defext,

                     maskString,

                     wxFD_SAVE | wxRESIZE_BORDER);

       mDialog = &fd;

@@ -581,7 +583,7 @@

       }

       wxString ext = mFilename.GetExt();

-      wxString defext = mPlugins[mFormat]->GetExtension(mSubFormat).Lower();

+      defext = mPlugins[mFormat]->GetExtension(mSubFormat).Lower();

       //

       // Check the extension - add the default if it's not there,

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

 

 



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Observations

Cliff Scott
In testing today I noticed a couple of things that stood out to me.

1. On Export Audio "Stop" or "Cancel" seem to do the same thing, i.e. it stops the operation, but the partially exported file still is left in the directory to which it was exported. I can see that being ok for Stop, but for Cancel I would think it should be removed. In the back of my mind I seem to recall this being discussed a while back, but I don't remember the resolution if there was any.

2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

Cliff
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Re: Observations

Pokechu22-3
For #2, I believe that that change was intentionally made, because people would attempt to save projects when they wanted to actually save (i.e. export) audio and it was decided that it made more sense to call it what people would look for.  I am not sure when or where this choice was made though.

--Poke

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
In testing today I noticed a couple of things that stood out to me.

1. On Export Audio "Stop" or "Cancel" seem to do the same thing, i.e. it stops the operation, but the partially exported file still is left in the directory to which it was exported. I can see that being ok for Stop, but for Cancel I would think it should be removed. In the back of my mind I seem to recall this being discussed a while back, but I don't remember the resolution if there was any.

2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

Cliff
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Re: Observations

Paul Licameli
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott


On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
In testing today I noticed a couple of things that stood out to me.

1. On Export Audio "Stop" or "Cancel" seem to do the same thing, i.e. it stops the operation, but the partially exported file still is left in the directory to which it was exported. I can see that being ok for Stop, but for Cancel I would think it should be removed. In the back of my mind I seem to recall this being discussed a while back, but I don't remember the resolution if there was any.

Thanks for the reminder of a loose end of the exception safety project.  I missed a place where "strong guarantee" on the state of the file system should have been implemented.  Please describe this in a new bug issue.
 

2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

I felt similar reservations but not strongly enough and I kept quiet.  It would violate string and feature freeze now.

PRL

  

Cliff
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Re: Observations

Cliff Scott

On Jul 22, 2017, at 8:15 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
In testing today I noticed a couple of things that stood out to me.

1. On Export Audio "Stop" or "Cancel" seem to do the same thing, i.e. it stops the operation, but the partially exported file still is left in the directory to which it was exported. I can see that being ok for Stop, but for Cancel I would think it should be removed. In the back of my mind I seem to recall this being discussed a while back, but I don't remember the resolution if there was any.

Thanks for the reminder of a loose end of the exception safety project.  I missed a place where "strong guarantee" on the state of the file system should have been implemented.  Please describe this in a new bug issue.
 

What priority would you like it to be?


2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

I felt similar reservations but not strongly enough and I kept quiet.  It would violate string and feature freeze now.

Wish I had spoken up earlier. I understand about the freeze.

Cliff


PRL

  

Cliff
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Re: Observations

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott


On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 2:02 AM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
In testing today I noticed a couple of things that stood out to me.

1. On Export Audio "Stop" or "Cancel" seem to do the same thing, i.e. it stops the operation, but the partially exported file still is left in the directory to which it was exported. I can see that being ok for Stop, but for Cancel I would think it should be removed. In the back of my mind I seem to recall this being discussed a while back, but I don't remember the resolution if there was any.

2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

This was done very deliberately and with great thought by James in his DarkAudacity implementation
as part of his menu changes - and we subsequently decided to port tese over to Audacity for 2.2.0.

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread this was done because far too many users over the years tried to
use the Save command to "save" non-native format audio files.  

The "Save Other" was designed to lead such folk to the sub-menu with the commands for exporting audio.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a long-standing issue in Audacity caused by the fact that we use (mostly) Open and Save only
for native-mode data i.e. Audacity projects - and non-native data audio files are Imported and Exported.

We bend this rule (and IMO confuse things in doing so) by allowing users to apparently "Open" an audio
file - in fact used this way the commmand actually Opens an an Audacity project and effeects a silent/hidden
Import of the audio file.

This leads many users to (wrongly) believe that they are directly opening and operating on a WAV file
or an MP3 file etc. - and then leads them to try to "Save" it.

I, personally, am of the view that separate commands for native and non-native data offers greater clarity
and I would certainly remove the "Open <audio>" commands.

Peter.

 

Cliff
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Re: Observations

James Crook
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott
On 7/23/2017 2:02 AM, Cliff Scott wrote:
> 2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

It is a change I brought in.  We have experience of many many users
being confused by 'Export'.  They want to 'Save as wav' and have trouble
finding how to do that.  This approach guides them to using Export to do
what they want.  Sophisticated users who already know the difference
between Save and Export will still find export as it is fairly obvious
what to try.

The Rolls Royce solution would be to allow someone to work in native
formats, i.e. open wav, edit in wav and save in wav, only warning them
if they use some feature like note tracks that can't be embedded in
wav.  That, i.e. working in a native format, (unfortunately) is what
naive users expect to be able to do.

--James.


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Re: Observations

Cliff Scott

> On Jul 23, 2017, at 5:00 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 7/23/2017 2:02 AM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>> 2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?
>
> It is a change I brought in.  We have experience of many many users being confused by 'Export'.  They want to 'Save as wav' and have trouble finding how to do that.  This approach guides them to using Export to do what they want.  Sophisticated users who already know the difference between Save and Export will still find export as it is fairly obvious what to try.
>
> The Rolls Royce solution would be to allow someone to work in native formats, i.e. open wav, edit in wav and save in wav, only warning them if they use some feature like note tracks that can't be embedded in wav.  That, i.e. working in a native format, (unfortunately) is what naive users expect to be able to do.

As you say, it seems to be an issue of how one perceives what is going on and the level of the user. I'm not pushing or lobbying for the change, but it came to me when I was looking for Export and nothing stood out to me since I separate saving within Audacity from Exporting out of Audacity. I got to the right place in the menu by the process of elimination rather than seeing what I was looking for. To specifically use the word Export when that is what one means makes more sense to me, but that's just me. 'nuf said. I'll let this die a peaceful death. Thanks for listening.

Cliff

>
> --James.
>
>
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Re: Observations

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 23/07/2017, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/23/2017 2:02 AM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>> 2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed
>> today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only
>> one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for
>> someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu
>> reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the
>> "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File
>> menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for
>> the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a
>> change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but
>> was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?
>
> It is a change I brought in.  We have experience of many many users
> being confused by 'Export'.  They want to 'Save as wav' and have trouble
> finding how to do that.  This approach guides them to using Export to do
> what they want.  Sophisticated users who already know the difference
> between Save and Export will still find export as it is fairly obvious
> what to try.
>
> The Rolls Royce solution would be to allow someone to work in native
> formats, i.e. open wav, edit in wav and save in wav, only warning them
> if they use some feature like note tracks that can't be embedded in
> wav.  That, i.e. working in a native format, (unfortunately) is what
> naive users expect to be able to do.
>

It's not only a luxury solution but an almost essential one for
integration with other programs.

For instance: It is straight-forward to define Audacity in Reaper as
the  preferred editor for audio files.

The clip opens up nicely and you can edit it.
However, exporting it is a hazzle...
- You don't know the location of the original, you don't know the
format and so on.
Therefore, it would be convenient to have a menu entry e.g.
"Update Source Audio"
which will save in the original location with the original format and so on.
A simplified dialog could pop up if you wanted for instance enforce
another format/rate etc.

At the moment, I will stick with GoldWave as editor for Reaper (a shame imho).

Robert

> --James.
>
>
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Re: Observations

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli

On Jul 22, 2017, at 8:15 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
In testing today I noticed a couple of things that stood out to me.

1. On Export Audio "Stop" or "Cancel" seem to do the same thing, i.e. it stops the operation, but the partially exported file still is left in the directory to which it was exported. I can see that being ok for Stop, but for Cancel I would think it should be removed. In the back of my mind I seem to recall this being discussed a while back, but I don't remember the resolution if there was any.

Thanks for the reminder of a loose end of the exception safety project.  I missed a place where "strong guarantee" on the state of the file system should have been implemented.  Please describe this in a new bug issue.

Paul,

I'm not sure what you want described in a "new bug issue". 

See bug 801, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801. This seems to be the same thing though Gale arrives at a different solution than I so maybe it should be discussed as to what is the best solution. 

Cliff

 

2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

I felt similar reservations but not strongly enough and I kept quiet.  It would violate string and feature freeze now.

PRL

  

Cliff
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Re: Observations

Peter Sampson-2


On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jul 22, 2017, at 8:15 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
In testing today I noticed a couple of things that stood out to me.

1. On Export Audio "Stop" or "Cancel" seem to do the same thing, i.e. it stops the operation, but the partially exported file still is left in the directory to which it was exported. I can see that being ok for Stop, but for Cancel I would think it should be removed. In the back of my mind I seem to recall this being discussed a while back, but I don't remember the resolution if there was any.

Thanks for the reminder of a loose end of the exception safety project.  I missed a place where "strong guarantee" on the state of the file system should have been implemented.  Please describe this in a new bug issue.

Paul,

I'm not sure what you want described in a "new bug issue". 

There is, and has been for a while, this proposal in the Wiki:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal:_Earlier_Disk_Over-run_Warnings

Peter


See bug 801, http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801. This seems to be the same thing though Gale arrives at a different solution than I so maybe it should be discussed as to what is the best solution. 

Cliff

 

2. I don't use the menus very much, prefer keyboard shortcuts, but noticed today that File>Save Other> menu has 8 possible Export options and only one Save option. IMHO Using the Save Other wording makes it hard for someone unfamiliar with Audacity and especially with the new menu reorganization to find where the Export menu is. I suggest making the "Save Other" an "Export" menu and move the one save item up to the File menu as it is only one item. Save and Export while they can be used for the same function, to me, mean totally different things.  I realize a change like this isn't possible for 2.2.0 as we're in string freeze, but was wondering if this makes sense to anyone else?

I felt similar reservations but not strongly enough and I kept quiet.  It would violate string and feature freeze now.

PRL

  

Cliff
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