Good use of space on smaller monitors

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Good use of space on smaller monitors

Gale
Administrator
James wrote on Bugzilla
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
> intend to.

You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
a poor use of space on smaller screens:
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens

The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.

So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
P4 enh for this.


Gale

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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Stevethefiddle
What do you  class as a "small" screen?

Steve

On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> James wrote on Bugzilla
> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>> intend to.
>
> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>
> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>
> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
> P4 enh for this.
>
>
> Gale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

James Crook
> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
Going full screen as the default in that case is better.  "I'm fine
with" has mutated to "I am fine if someone else decides to do it".  It's
of too minor importance to me to want to spend time on it myself.  I'd
rather spend time on (say) tweaking the colours of the spectrogram,
which is similarly hard/easy in code terms and has far bigger pay off.



On 3/16/2017 1:28 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:

> What do you  class as a "small" screen?
>
> Steve
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>> intend to.
>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>
>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>> P4 enh for this.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 16 March 2017 at 01:28, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What do you  class as a "small" screen?

I would say anything less than 1360 px width. Even on my "best"
standalone monitor which is 1280*1024, I can't put anything useful
alongside Audacity at default positioning.


Gale

> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>> intend to.
>>
>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>>
>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>
>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>> P4 enh for this.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 16 March 2017 at 08:02, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
> Going full screen as the default in that case is better.  "I'm fine
> with" has mutated to "I am fine if someone else decides to do it".  It's
> of too minor importance to me to want to spend time on it myself.  I'd
> rather spend time on (say) tweaking the colours of the spectrogram,
> which is similarly hard/easy in code terms and has far bigger pay off.

I don't mind who does it, but the change to centered *does* reduce usability
on "smaller" screens.

I would guess only a minority of users use spectrograms, so I doubt what
you say about payoff being far bigger.

According to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution#Common_display_resolutions

there were still about 25% of users below 1366 px width, and even that
width does not give you all that much space either side of default Audacity
placement.

If I said "small" was below 1440, which does give decent space either side
of Audacity, then more than half of users had a "small" monitor (according
to the above link).


Gale

>> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>>> intend to.
>>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>>
>>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>>> P4 enh for this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
Personally I'd find reducing the width of Audacity below about 1000 px
to be "unusably cramped", so displaying Word, for example, side by
side with Audacity on a small display, seems an unreasonable
expectation.

Steve

On 16 March 2017 at 19:21, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16 March 2017 at 01:28, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> What do you  class as a "small" screen?
>
> I would say anything less than 1360 px width. Even on my "best"
> standalone monitor which is 1280*1024, I can't put anything useful
> alongside Audacity at default positioning.
>
>
> Gale
>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>>> intend to.
>>>
>>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>>>
>>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>>
>>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>>> P4 enh for this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>

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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Gale
Administrator
No need to make it more "unreasonable" than it was, and as I understand
it, the minimum width we support is now 1024 px in any case. So we don't
need to consider maximising for 800 * 600 which is the only option that
makes sense at that size.

As you know, people do dictate with a text app side-by-side with Audacity.
On my current standalone monitor 1280 px width it is "reasonable" to do
that, or to have a small player app next to Audacity - but not with Audacity
centred.



Gale


On 16 March 2017 at 22:54, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Personally I'd find reducing the width of Audacity below about 1000 px
> to be "unusably cramped", so displaying Word, for example, side by
> side with Audacity on a small display, seems an unreasonable
> expectation.
>
> Steve
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 19:21, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 16 March 2017 at 01:28, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> What do you  class as a "small" screen?
>>
>> I would say anything less than 1360 px width. Even on my "best"
>> standalone monitor which is 1280*1024, I can't put anything useful
>> alongside Audacity at default positioning.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>>>> intend to.
>>>>
>>>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>>>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>>>>
>>>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>>>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>>>
>>>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>>>> P4 enh for this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Stevethefiddle
It just strikes me as not a useful issue to spend time on.

In your example (below), one person may prefer their text to the left
of Audacity, so we are  creating 'more work' for them if we place
Audacity on the left. Someone else may to stack the windows one above
the other, while someone else may prefer to 'Alt+Tab' between
full-screen windows.

A better solution for all of these cases would be for the user to get
a second monitor, multiple Desktops, or read from a tablet, or even an
old fashioned "book".

What evidence do we have that top left would be the preferred
location? On my computer, the application that I generally use for
reading text has a default open position of top left, so top left
would be the worst place for Audacity to open because it would totally
obscure the text window.

Improving support for multiple monitors / Desktops seems a better use
of our limited resources than focussing time and attention on
something that at best offers a small convenience for a few users,
while possibly inconveniencing many more users, and providing no great
benefit to anyone.

Steve


On 17 March 2017 at 13:38, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> No need to make it more "unreasonable" than it was, and as I understand
> it, the minimum width we support is now 1024 px in any case. So we don't
> need to consider maximising for 800 * 600 which is the only option that
> makes sense at that size.
>
> As you know, people do dictate with a text app side-by-side with Audacity.
> On my current standalone monitor 1280 px width it is "reasonable" to do
> that, or to have a small player app next to Audacity - but not with Audacity
> centred.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:54, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Personally I'd find reducing the width of Audacity below about 1000 px
>> to be "unusably cramped", so displaying Word, for example, side by
>> side with Audacity on a small display, seems an unreasonable
>> expectation.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 19:21, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 01:28, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> What do you  class as a "small" screen?
>>>
>>> I would say anything less than 1360 px width. Even on my "best"
>>> standalone monitor which is 1280*1024, I can't put anything useful
>>> alongside Audacity at default positioning.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>>>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>>>>> intend to.
>>>>>
>>>>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>>>>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>>>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>>>>>
>>>>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>>>>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>>>>
>>>>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>>>>> P4 enh for this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Cliff Scott
Just my 2 cents worth.

On the Mac it comes up in the same location as it was when I shut it down. I don't know about linux or Windows, but on the Mac at least it doesn't make any sense to me to worry about the position since the user can move it to where he/she wants it and then it will come up there, at least until a system shut down or reboot. Also as Steve says who knows where the user would rather have it. It may change on  the circumstances at the time as well.

My laptop screen is 1440 x 900 so when Audacity is at a size I find convenient for working nothing of any worth to me is useable along side it so it's always cmd-tab to switch or multiple desktops.

Cliff

> On Mar 17, 2017, at 9:14 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It just strikes me as not a useful issue to spend time on.
>
> In your example (below), one person may prefer their text to the left
> of Audacity, so we are  creating 'more work' for them if we place
> Audacity on the left. Someone else may to stack the windows one above
> the other, while someone else may prefer to 'Alt+Tab' between
> full-screen windows.
>
> A better solution for all of these cases would be for the user to get
> a second monitor, multiple Desktops, or read from a tablet, or even an
> old fashioned "book".
>
> What evidence do we have that top left would be the preferred
> location? On my computer, the application that I generally use for
> reading text has a default open position of top left, so top left
> would be the worst place for Audacity to open because it would totally
> obscure the text window.
>
> Improving support for multiple monitors / Desktops seems a better use
> of our limited resources than focussing time and attention on
> something that at best offers a small convenience for a few users,
> while possibly inconveniencing many more users, and providing no great
> benefit to anyone.
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 17 March 2017 at 13:38, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> No need to make it more "unreasonable" than it was, and as I understand
>> it, the minimum width we support is now 1024 px in any case. So we don't
>> need to consider maximising for 800 * 600 which is the only option that
>> makes sense at that size.
>>
>> As you know, people do dictate with a text app side-by-side with Audacity.
>> On my current standalone monitor 1280 px width it is "reasonable" to do
>> that, or to have a small player app next to Audacity - but not with Audacity
>> centred.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:54, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Personally I'd find reducing the width of Audacity below about 1000 px
>>> to be "unusably cramped", so displaying Word, for example, side by
>>> side with Audacity on a small display, seems an unreasonable
>>> expectation.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 19:21, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 01:28, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> What do you  class as a "small" screen?
>>>>
>>>> I would say anything less than 1360 px width. Even on my "best"
>>>> standalone monitor which is 1280*1024, I can't put anything useful
>>>> alongside Audacity at default positioning.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>>>>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>>>>>> intend to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>>>>>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>>>>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>>>>>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>>>>>> P4 enh for this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 17 March 2017 at 14:14, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It just strikes me as not a useful issue to spend time on.
>
> In your example (below), one person may prefer their text to the left
> of Audacity, so we are  creating 'more work' for them if we place
> Audacity on the left. Someone else may to stack the windows one above
> the other, while someone else may prefer to 'Alt+Tab' between
> full-screen windows.
>
> A better solution for all of these cases would be for the user to get
> a second monitor, multiple Desktops, or read from a tablet, or even an
> old fashioned "book".
>
> What evidence do we have that top left would be the preferred
> location?

My evidence would be that no-one complained when it was top left.

We aren't getting a lot of complaints now either, except from me. I was
able to put the previous space to right for xplorer2's preview pane which
includes text display and a media player. And yes of course it is worse
for me because I have to keep resetting preferences to test Audacity.

As far as I know the change was personal preference of the developer
and not part of the fix (unless of course, centred made the fix easier).


> On my computer, the application that I generally use for reading text has
> a default open position of top left, so top left would be the worst place for
> Audacity to open because it would totally obscure the text window.

Well at least that points to top left being a not uncommon default.


> Improving support for multiple monitors / Desktops

What do you have in mind that we don't do now?


> seems a better use of our limited resources than focussing time and attention
> on something that at best offers a small convenience for a few users,
> while possibly inconveniencing many more users, and providing no great
> benefit to anyone.

If top left had really been inconveniencing many users we would have known
about it. And I benefited from that position, at least.

I won't be pursuing it given everyone else likes the change.


Gale


>
> On 17 March 2017 at 13:38, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> No need to make it more "unreasonable" than it was, and as I understand
>> it, the minimum width we support is now 1024 px in any case. So we don't
>> need to consider maximising for 800 * 600 which is the only option that
>> makes sense at that size.
>>
>> As you know, people do dictate with a text app side-by-side with Audacity.
>> On my current standalone monitor 1280 px width it is "reasonable" to do
>> that, or to have a small player app next to Audacity - but not with Audacity
>> centred.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:54, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Personally I'd find reducing the width of Audacity below about 1000 px
>>> to be "unusably cramped", so displaying Word, for example, side by
>>> side with Audacity on a small display, seems an unreasonable
>>> expectation.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 19:21, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 01:28, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> What do you  class as a "small" screen?
>>>>
>>>> I would say anything less than 1360 px width. Even on my "best"
>>>> standalone monitor which is 1280*1024, I can't put anything useful
>>>> alongside Audacity at default positioning.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 00:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> James wrote on Bugzilla
>>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1314#c6
>>>>>>> I did not adjust the position of default screens to be top left, and don't
>>>>>>> intend to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You did though James previously recognise that default centering was
>>>>>> a poor use of space on smaller screens:
>>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1243#c19
>>>>>>> I am also fine with top-lefting the (default) position on small screens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The argument is that with Audacity top-left, you probably can tile a
>>>>>> useful window to right of Audacity. Not so if Audacity is centred.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So unless widespread opposition is voiced in this topic, I will add a
>>>>>> P4 enh for this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>
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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

James Crook
On 3/18/2017 7:43 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> As far as I know the change was personal preference of the developer
> and not part of the fix (unless of course, centred made the fix easier).
Centred made the fix easier as I did not have to worry about the
possible space taken up by left bars and top/menu bar on
Windows/Mac/Linux.  [Pedantic - it did actually cross my mind that a
screen only slightly larger than min size could STILL have a problem
from such bars.  Much less likely than if positioning in 'top left' ] I
did not see the 'top left' as an integral part of the reported problem
of the bug, rather I saw it as a suggestion of how to fix.

--James.



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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott
Cliff wrote:
> I don't know about linux or Windows, but on the Mac at least it doesn't make
>any sense to me to worry about the position since the user can move it to where
>he/she wants it and then it will come up there, at least until a system shut down
>or reboot.

+1

>Also as Steve says who knows where the user would rather have it. It may change
>onĀ  the circumstances at the time as well.

+1

Steve wrote:
>It just strikes me as not a useful issue to spend time on.

+1

Peter.

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Re: Good use of space on smaller monitors

Gale
Administrator
If James had said in the original Bugzilla comment trail that centering
was important to the fix, I might not have raised it.


Gale


On 19 March 2017 at 16:11, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cliff wrote:
>> I don't know about linux or Windows, but on the Mac at least it doesn't
>> make
>>any sense to me to worry about the position since the user can move it to
>> where
>>he/she wants it and then it will come up there, at least until a system
>> shut down
>>or reboot.
>
> +1
>
>>Also as Steve says who knows where the user would rather have it. It may
>> change
>>on  the circumstances at the time as well.
>
> +1
>
> Steve wrote:
>>It just strikes me as not a useful issue to spend time on.
>
> +1
>
> Peter.
>
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