Improving Recording experience

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Improving Recording experience

Robert Hänggi
Hi all
Now that we have switched to append record as default, there come a
couple of things to my mind that could help the user.

1. Pausing the recording
   this feature seems to be broken. Pressing pause stops shortly but
resumes recording almost immediately.

2. Accessing last recording
   When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
a "Split clip" before the recording starts.

3. Roll-in
   I normally prefer the record below option, firstly because I can
record anywhere and secondly because I can hear some audio before the
actual recording point. This has not been ideal though because I
always had to clean up the trash. Append record starts unfortunately
immediately at the track end. This is certainly not very helpful for
e.g. correct a mistake in a sentence or to play in a musical phrase. I
therefore suggest that we add a "Roll-in" option.
Reaper has it for both, recording and playback and it resides in
preferences. They have it in measures but we can as well allow to give
it in seconds.
If you wonder what a roll-in for playback brings: You can use it with
Loop Play where the roll-in is played once and the selection loops
over and over.
Another important aspect of roll-in: you have enough time to prepare
for recording--clean your throat, grab your instrument.

Robert

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Re: Improving Recording experience

Gale
Administrator
On 27 May 2017 at 07:21, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all
> Now that we have switched to append record as default, there come a
> couple of things to my mind that could help the user.
>
> 1. Pausing the recording
>    this feature seems to be broken. Pressing pause stops shortly but
> resumes recording almost immediately.

What are you using as a recording device, Robert? I don't see any
difference compared to 2.1.3 Append Record, using internal mic and
MME host.

You can always change back to Record New Track in Preferences.


> 2. Accessing last recording
>    When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
> see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
> be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
> a "Split clip" before the recording starts.

Yes I thought it was already agreed this was sensible.

Note that it likely *will* annoy some users who "can't remove the black
marks from the recording".

And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in
Spectrogram.


> 3. Roll-in
>    I normally prefer the record below option, firstly because I can
> record anywhere and secondly because I can hear some audio before the
> actual recording point. This has not been ideal though because I
> always had to clean up the trash. Append record starts unfortunately
> immediately at the track end. This is certainly not very helpful for
> e.g. correct a mistake in a sentence or to play in a musical phrase. I
> therefore suggest that we add a "Roll-in" option.

Yes, I always said that default Append Record would raise the priority
of pre-roll (and punch-in).

It's up to RM but I think these improvements may have been deferred
until after 2.2.0.

You can still always open a new track first, place the cursor at the
count-in, then Append Record into that new track. Overdub of the
previous track still works.


Gale


> Reaper has it for both, recording and playback and it resides in
> preferences. They have it in measures but we can as well allow to give
> it in seconds.
> If you wonder what a roll-in for playback brings: You can use it with
> Loop Play where the roll-in is played once and the selection loops
> over and over.
> Another important aspect of roll-in: you have enough time to prepare
> for recording--clean your throat, grab your instrument.




Gale

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Re: Improving Recording experience

Robert Hänggi
On 27/05/2017, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27 May 2017 at 07:21, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all
>> Now that we have switched to append record as default, there come a
>> couple of things to my mind that could help the user.
>>
>> 1. Pausing the recording
>>    this feature seems to be broken. Pressing pause stops shortly but
>> resumes recording almost immediately.
>
> What are you using as a recording device, Robert? I don't see any
> difference compared to 2.1.3 Append Record, using internal mic and
> MME host.

I've tried it with the old style record new (to hear the other audio).
Input = mic and host is MME or Wasapi.
It invariably refuses to pause.

>
> You can always change back to Record New Track in Preferences.
>
>
>> 2. Accessing last recording
>>    When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
>> see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
>> be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
>> a "Split clip" before the recording starts.
>
> Yes I thought it was already agreed this was sensible.
>
> Note that it likely *will* annoy some users who "can't remove the black
> marks from the recording".
>
> And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in
> Spectrogram.

Totally.

>
>
>> 3. Roll-in
>>    I normally prefer the record below option, firstly because I can
>> record anywhere and secondly because I can hear some audio before the
>> actual recording point. This has not been ideal though because I
>> always had to clean up the trash. Append record starts unfortunately
>> immediately at the track end. This is certainly not very helpful for
>> e.g. correct a mistake in a sentence or to play in a musical phrase. I
>> therefore suggest that we add a "Roll-in" option.
>
> Yes, I always said that default Append Record would raise the priority
> of pre-roll (and punch-in).
>
> It's up to RM but I think these improvements may have been deferred
> until after 2.2.0.
>

This is not the full-blown feature set of punch-in, multi-take etc.
Roll-in would just sweeten the (somewhat hard) migration from one
recording behaviour to another.
I don't know how far Paul is with his refactoring process. However,
roll-in wouldn't interfere with that.
For a beginning, the "Preview before Cut" value could be taken as a count-in.
Anyway, I'm sure Paul has something up his sleeve for the next
version--if yet not hedged.


 > You can still always open a new track first, place the cursor at the
> count-in, then Append Record into that new track. Overdub of the
> previous track still works.
>
But this will still record the trash before the actual wanted
recording point. This is actually the same as Shift+R, is it not?

Thanks
Robert

>
> Gale
>
>
>> Reaper has it for both, recording and playback and it resides in
>> preferences. They have it in measures but we can as well allow to give
>> it in seconds.
>> If you wonder what a roll-in for playback brings: You can use it with
>> Loop Play where the roll-in is played once and the selection loops
>> over and over.
>> Another important aspect of roll-in: you have enough time to prepare
>> for recording--clean your throat, grab your instrument.
>
>
>
>
> Gale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Improving Recording experience

Cliff Scott

On May 29, 2017, at 7:32 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 27/05/2017, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 27 May 2017 at 07:21, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all
Now that we have switched to append record as default, there come a
couple of things to my mind that could help the user.

1. Pausing the recording
  this feature seems to be broken. Pressing pause stops shortly but
resumes recording almost immediately.

What are you using as a recording device, Robert? I don't see any
difference compared to 2.1.3 Append Record, using internal mic and
MME host.

I've tried it with the old style record new (to hear the other audio).
Input = mic and host is MME or Wasapi.
It invariably refuses to pause.

Works fine here on my Mac. In Sound Activated Recording the Pause seems to be disabled so it's unpausable. To my way of thinking Pause should work in that mode as well.

Cliff



You can always change back to Record New Track in Preferences.


2. Accessing last recording
  When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
a "Split clip" before the recording starts.

Yes I thought it was already agreed this was sensible.

Note that it likely *will* annoy some users who "can't remove the black
marks from the recording".

And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in
Spectrogram.

Totally.


3. Roll-in
  I normally prefer the record below option, firstly because I can
record anywhere and secondly because I can hear some audio before the
actual recording point. This has not been ideal though because I
always had to clean up the trash. Append record starts unfortunately
immediately at the track end. This is certainly not very helpful for
e.g. correct a mistake in a sentence or to play in a musical phrase. I
therefore suggest that we add a "Roll-in" option.

Yes, I always said that default Append Record would raise the priority
of pre-roll (and punch-in).

It's up to RM but I think these improvements may have been deferred
until after 2.2.0.


This is not the full-blown feature set of punch-in, multi-take etc.
Roll-in would just sweeten the (somewhat hard) migration from one
recording behaviour to another.
I don't know how far Paul is with his refactoring process. However,
roll-in wouldn't interfere with that.
For a beginning, the "Preview before Cut" value could be taken as a count-in.
Anyway, I'm sure Paul has something up his sleeve for the next
version--if yet not hedged.


You can still always open a new track first, place the cursor at the
count-in, then Append Record into that new track. Overdub of the
previous track still works.

But this will still record the trash before the actual wanted
recording point. This is actually the same as Shift+R, is it not?

Thanks
Robert

Gale


Reaper has it for both, recording and playback and it resides in
preferences. They have it in measures but we can as well allow to give
it in seconds.
If you wonder what a roll-in for playback brings: You can use it with
Loop Play where the roll-in is played once and the selection loops
over and over.
Another important aspect of roll-in: you have enough time to prepare
for recording--clean your throat, grab your instrument.




Gale

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Re: Improving Recording experience

Robert Hänggi
Clif, you're a hero.
Indeed, sound activated recording was checked. :Oops:

Robert

On 29/05/2017, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On May 29, 2017, at 7:32 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 27/05/2017, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>> On 27 May 2017 at 07:21, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>> Hi all
>>>> Now that we have switched to append record as default, there come a
>>>> couple of things to my mind that could help the user.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Pausing the recording
>>>>   this feature seems to be broken. Pressing pause stops shortly but
>>>> resumes recording almost immediately.
>>>
>>> What are you using as a recording device, Robert? I don't see any
>>> difference compared to 2.1.3 Append Record, using internal mic and
>>> MME host.
>>
>> I've tried it with the old style record new (to hear the other audio).
>> Input = mic and host is MME or Wasapi.
>> It invariably refuses to pause.
>
> Works fine here on my Mac. In Sound Activated Recording the Pause seems to
> be disabled so it's unpausable. To my way of thinking Pause should work in
> that mode as well.
>
> Cliff
>
>>
>>>
>>> You can always change back to Record New Track in Preferences.
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2. Accessing last recording
>>>>   When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
>>>> see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
>>>> be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
>>>> a "Split clip" before the recording starts.
>>>
>>> Yes I thought it was already agreed this was sensible.
>>>
>>> Note that it likely *will* annoy some users who "can't remove the black
>>> marks from the recording".
>>>
>>> And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in
>>> Spectrogram.
>>
>> Totally.
>>>
>>>
>>>> 3. Roll-in
>>>>   I normally prefer the record below option, firstly because I can
>>>> record anywhere and secondly because I can hear some audio before the
>>>> actual recording point. This has not been ideal though because I
>>>> always had to clean up the trash. Append record starts unfortunately
>>>> immediately at the track end. This is certainly not very helpful for
>>>> e.g. correct a mistake in a sentence or to play in a musical phrase. I
>>>> therefore suggest that we add a "Roll-in" option.
>>>
>>> Yes, I always said that default Append Record would raise the priority
>>> of pre-roll (and punch-in).
>>>
>>> It's up to RM but I think these improvements may have been deferred
>>> until after 2.2.0.
>>>
>>
>> This is not the full-blown feature set of punch-in, multi-take etc.
>> Roll-in would just sweeten the (somewhat hard) migration from one
>> recording behaviour to another.
>> I don't know how far Paul is with his refactoring process. However,
>> roll-in wouldn't interfere with that.
>> For a beginning, the "Preview before Cut" value could be taken as a
>> count-in.
>> Anyway, I'm sure Paul has something up his sleeve for the next
>> version--if yet not hedged.
>>
>>
>>> You can still always open a new track first, place the cursor at the
>>> count-in, then Append Record into that new track. Overdub of the
>>> previous track still works.
>>>
>> But this will still record the trash before the actual wanted
>> recording point. This is actually the same as Shift+R, is it not?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Robert
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>> Reaper has it for both, recording and playback and it resides in
>>>> preferences. They have it in measures but we can as well allow to give
>>>> it in seconds.
>>>> If you wonder what a roll-in for playback brings: You can use it with
>>>> Loop Play where the roll-in is played once and the selection loops
>>>> over and over.
>>>> Another important aspect of roll-in: you have enough time to prepare
>>>> for recording--clean your throat, grab your instrument.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org <http://slashdot.org/>!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot <http://sdm.link/slashdot>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality>
>

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Re: Improving Recording experience

Cliff Scott
Robert,

Thanks Robert, but I have to credit having bumped my head against sound activated recording issues myself and it fit the pattern. Wish we could solve all "bugs" that easily. :))

Cliff

> On May 29, 2017, at 11:21 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Clif, you're a hero.
> Indeed, sound activated recording was checked. :Oops:
>
> Robert
>
> On 29/05/2017, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On May 29, 2017, at 7:32 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 27/05/2017, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>> On 27 May 2017 at 07:21, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all
>>>>> Now that we have switched to append record as default, there come a
>>>>> couple of things to my mind that could help the user.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Pausing the recording
>>>>>  this feature seems to be broken. Pressing pause stops shortly but
>>>>> resumes recording almost immediately.
>>>>
>>>> What are you using as a recording device, Robert? I don't see any
>>>> difference compared to 2.1.3 Append Record, using internal mic and
>>>> MME host.
>>>
>>> I've tried it with the old style record new (to hear the other audio).
>>> Input = mic and host is MME or Wasapi.
>>> It invariably refuses to pause.
>>
>> Works fine here on my Mac. In Sound Activated Recording the Pause seems to
>> be disabled so it's unpausable. To my way of thinking Pause should work in
>> that mode as well.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can always change back to Record New Track in Preferences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 2. Accessing last recording
>>>>>  When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
>>>>> see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
>>>>> be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
>>>>> a "Split clip" before the recording starts.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I thought it was already agreed this was sensible.
>>>>
>>>> Note that it likely *will* annoy some users who "can't remove the black
>>>> marks from the recording".
>>>>
>>>> And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in
>>>> Spectrogram.
>>>
>>> Totally.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 3. Roll-in
>>>>>  I normally prefer the record below option, firstly because I can
>>>>> record anywhere and secondly because I can hear some audio before the
>>>>> actual recording point. This has not been ideal though because I
>>>>> always had to clean up the trash. Append record starts unfortunately
>>>>> immediately at the track end. This is certainly not very helpful for
>>>>> e.g. correct a mistake in a sentence or to play in a musical phrase. I
>>>>> therefore suggest that we add a "Roll-in" option.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I always said that default Append Record would raise the priority
>>>> of pre-roll (and punch-in).
>>>>
>>>> It's up to RM but I think these improvements may have been deferred
>>>> until after 2.2.0.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is not the full-blown feature set of punch-in, multi-take etc.
>>> Roll-in would just sweeten the (somewhat hard) migration from one
>>> recording behaviour to another.
>>> I don't know how far Paul is with his refactoring process. However,
>>> roll-in wouldn't interfere with that.
>>> For a beginning, the "Preview before Cut" value could be taken as a
>>> count-in.
>>> Anyway, I'm sure Paul has something up his sleeve for the next
>>> version--if yet not hedged.
>>>
>>>
>>>> You can still always open a new track first, place the cursor at the
>>>> count-in, then Append Record into that new track. Overdub of the
>>>> previous track still works.
>>>>
>>> But this will still record the trash before the actual wanted
>>> recording point. This is actually the same as Shift+R, is it not?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Reaper has it for both, recording and playback and it resides in
>>>>> preferences. They have it in measures but we can as well allow to give
>>>>> it in seconds.
>>>>> If you wonder what a roll-in for playback brings: You can use it with
>>>>> Loop Play where the roll-in is played once and the selection loops
>>>>> over and over.
>>>>> Another important aspect of roll-in: you have enough time to prepare
>>>>> for recording--clean your throat, grab your instrument.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org <http://slashdot.org/>!
>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot <http://sdm.link/slashdot>
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>>
>
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Re: Improving Recording experience

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all
Now that we have switched to append record as default, there come a
couple of things to my mind that could help the user.

1. Pausing the recording
   this feature seems to be broken. Pressing pause stops shortly but
resumes recording almost immediately.

2. Accessing last recording
   When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
a "Split clip" before the recording starts.

James, is adding the split clip scheduled for 2.2.0, or for a later release,

thanks,
David.
 

3. Roll-in
   I normally prefer the record below option, firstly because I can
record anywhere and secondly because I can hear some audio before the
actual recording point. This has not been ideal though because I
always had to clean up the trash. Append record starts unfortunately
immediately at the track end. This is certainly not very helpful for
e.g. correct a mistake in a sentence or to play in a musical phrase. I
therefore suggest that we add a "Roll-in" option.
Reaper has it for both, recording and playback and it resides in
preferences. They have it in measures but we can as well allow to give
it in seconds.
If you wonder what a roll-in for playback brings: You can use it with
Loop Play where the roll-in is played once and the selection loops
over and over.
Another important aspect of roll-in: you have enough time to prepare
for recording--clean your throat, grab your instrument.

Robert

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Re: Improving Recording experience

James Crook
On 7/6/2017 9:04 AM, David Bailes wrote:
> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> 2. Accessing last recording
>>     When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
>> see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
>> be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
>> a "Split clip" before the recording starts.
> James, is adding the split clip scheduled for 2.2.0, or for a later release,
It is not on my own to-do list, so if it is done for 2.2.0 likely it
will be by someone else.

I note that Gale commented:

> And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in Spectrogram.
Since we don't (micro) fade-in/fade-out at clip boundaries, there often
is energy in a clip at the end, and I would expect there to be when
start/stopping recording.

If 'split-clip when starting/stopping recording' becomes an enhancement
bug in Bugzilla in order to track/encourage work on it, it needs a note
that 'fixing' the spectrogram is not part of the bug.  Otherwise that
will act as a big disincentive to working on the bug.  The bug won't
close by fixing the headline issue, if the spectrogram is actually part
of it, and whoever works on it will also get caught up in the argument
about energy at ends of clips.

--James.


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Re: Improving Recording experience

David Bailes-3
On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:45 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 7/6/2017 9:04 AM, David Bailes wrote:
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
wrote:

2. Accessing last recording
    When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
a "Split clip" before the recording starts.
James, is adding the split clip scheduled for 2.2.0, or for a later release,
It is not on my own to-do list, so if it is done for 2.2.0 likely it will be by someone else.

thanks for the info,
David.
 

I note that Gale commented:

And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in Spectrogram.
Since we don't (micro) fade-in/fade-out at clip boundaries, there often is energy in a clip at the end, and I would expect there to be when start/stopping recording.

If 'split-clip when starting/stopping recording' becomes an enhancement bug in Bugzilla in order to track/encourage work on it, it needs a note that 'fixing' the spectrogram is not part of the bug.  Otherwise that will act as a big disincentive to working on the bug.  The bug won't close by fixing the headline issue, if the spectrogram is actually part of it, and whoever works on it will also get caught up in the argument about energy at ends of clips.

--James.



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Re: Improving Recording experience

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by James Crook
On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:45 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 7/6/2017 9:04 AM, David Bailes wrote:
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
wrote:

2. Accessing last recording
    When a recording is done, the selection will still be the same. I
see a recording as an individual item and we should allow that it can
be accessed in its entirety. I suggest therefore to automatically add
a "Split clip" before the recording starts.
James, is adding the split clip scheduled for 2.2.0, or for a later release,
It is not on my own to-do list, so if it is done for 2.2.0 likely it will be by someone else.

thanks for the info,
David.
 

I note that Gale commented:

And I still feel it's a flaw that a split line shows up as energy in Spectrogram.
Since we don't (micro) fade-in/fade-out at clip boundaries, there often is energy in a clip at the end, and I would expect there to be when start/stopping recording.

If 'split-clip when starting/stopping recording' becomes an enhancement bug in Bugzilla in order to track/encourage work on it, it needs a note that 'fixing' the spectrogram is not part of the bug.  Otherwise that will act as a big disincentive to working on the bug.  The bug won't close by fixing the headline issue, if the spectrogram is actually part of it, and whoever works on it will also get caught up in the argument about energy at ends of clips.

--James.



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