Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

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Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Peter Sampson-2
Hi Paul (as RM)

as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for 2.2.0?

Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs relating
this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't appear to
work on Linux.


I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the nightlies is
turned off for thrre weeks or more.

Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Paul Licameli


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Paul (as RM)

as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for 2.2.0?

Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs relating
this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't appear to
work on Linux.


I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the nightlies is
turned off for thrre weeks or more.

Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.

Cheers,
Peter.

From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.

So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we don't find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a disappointment but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on 2.1.3.

Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the manual much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most of the work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I would think.

PRL




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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Peter Sampson-2


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Paul (as RM)

as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for 2.2.0?

Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs relating
this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't appear to
work on Linux.


I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the nightlies is
turned off for thrre weeks or more.

Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.

Cheers,
Peter.

From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.

So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we don't find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a disappointment but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on 2.1.3.

I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being single-platform (for now).

I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this feature.

 

Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the manual much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most of the work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I would think.

That's my understanding too.

Peter.
 

PRL





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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Stevethefiddle
On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>>>
>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for 2.2.0?
>>>
>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>>> relating
>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't appear
>>> to
>>> work on Linux.
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>>> nightlies is
>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>>>
>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Peter.
>>
>>
>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>>
>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we don't
>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a disappointment
>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on 2.1.3.
>
>
> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being single-platform
> (for now).

You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
ago.

Steve

>
> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this feature.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the manual
>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most of the
>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I would
>> think.
>
>
> That's my understanding too.
>
> Peter.
>
>>
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Robert Hänggi
Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
still a lot of features missing or buggy.
- No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
- No panic key
- Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
and it should thus say so.
- No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
- no split to channels
- no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
- No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
- Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
- No MIDI menu
- No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
- No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
...

It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.

However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.

Robert

On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>>>>
>>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for 2.2.0?
>>>>
>>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>>>> relating
>>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>>>> appear
>>>> to
>>>> work on Linux.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>>>> nightlies is
>>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>>>>
>>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Peter.
>>>
>>>
>>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>>>
>>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>>> don't
>>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>>> disappointment
>>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on 2.1.3.
>>
>>
>> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> single-platform
>> (for now).
>
> You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
> release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
> cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
> support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
> tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
> ago.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> feature.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>>> manual
>>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most of
>>> the
>>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>>> would
>>> think.
>>
>>
>> That's my understanding too.
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Paul Licameli


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
still a lot of features missing or buggy.
- No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
- No panic key
- Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
and it should thus say so.
- No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
- no split to channels
- no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
- No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
- Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
- No MIDI menu
- No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
- No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)

This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.

Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

PRL
 
...

It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.

However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.

Robert

On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>>>>
>>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for 2.2.0?
>>>>
>>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>>>> relating
>>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>>>> appear
>>>> to
>>>> work on Linux.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>>>> nightlies is
>>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>>>>
>>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Peter.
>>>
>>>
>>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>>>
>>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>>> don't
>>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>>> disappointment
>>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on 2.1.3.
>>
>>
>> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> single-platform
>> (for now).
>
> You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
> release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
> cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
> support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
> tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
> ago.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> feature.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>>> manual
>>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most of
>>> the
>>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>>> would
>>> think.
>>
>>
>> That's my understanding too.
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Stevethefiddle
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Paul Licameli


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Pokechu22-3
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Pokechu22-3
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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>

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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Pokechu22-3
It looks like the problem is that portmidi is getting build without alsa support (and thus without support for any interfaces, and thus without devices).  That's... fairly bad.  It seems like this is controlled by #ifdef PMALSA, which isn't defined anywhere; I'm not entirely sure why but it probably just is something that should be done in Makefile.am but isn't.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Paul Licameli
In reply to this post by Pokechu22-3
Now this is getting interesting.

Are you sure it's the sname portmidi library that is linked to in each case?

Is there some subtle difference between portmidi as used in that program and portmidi as compiled as part of Audacity?

Could it be that compiling as C++ instead of C has more subtle effects?  Or that there is some difference in the preprocessor state?  Other #define's?  Other -D command line options?

PRL


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Paul Licameli
In reply to this post by Pokechu22-3
It's fairly good that you came up quickly with this hypothesis.  Can you figure out how to test that ad rebuild it?

PRL



On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
It looks like the problem is that portmidi is getting build without alsa support (and thus without support for any interfaces, and thus without devices).  That's... fairly bad.  It seems like this is controlled by #ifdef PMALSA, which isn't defined anywhere; I'm not entirely sure why but it probably just is something that should be done in Makefile.am but isn't.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Pokechu22-3
I've commented out the #ifdef checks in pmlinux.c.  Now I'm just waiting for everything to (slowly) rebuild on my pi.

It does seem like there may be multiple versions of portmidi at play, one which audacity links to and one which my test program links to.  I actually found that if I change -lportmidi to ../audacity/lib-src/portmidi/libportmidi_s.a when compiling my test program, I had the same problem of no devices appearing.  So the system version is fine, but the local version isn't...  (Also, I'm not completely sure why audacity doesn't link to the system version; it seems to think that it doesn't exist - it may be related to PKG_CHECK_MODULES in the m4 and pkg-config --modversion portmidi saying the package doesn't exist)

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's fairly good that you came up quickly with this hypothesis.  Can you figure out how to test that ad rebuild it?

PRL



On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
It looks like the problem is that portmidi is getting build without alsa support (and thus without support for any interfaces, and thus without devices).  That's... fairly bad.  It seems like this is controlled by #ifdef PMALSA, which isn't defined anywhere; I'm not entirely sure why but it probably just is something that should be done in Makefile.am but isn't.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >
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>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Pokechu22-3
Yep, that fixed it: https://github.com/pokechu22/audacity/commit/f4475a3c2.  (Note that I also have another commit that fixes building with midi disabled before that, along with other build fixes)

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've commented out the #ifdef checks in pmlinux.c.  Now I'm just waiting for everything to (slowly) rebuild on my pi.

It does seem like there may be multiple versions of portmidi at play, one which audacity links to and one which my test program links to.  I actually found that if I change -lportmidi to ../audacity/lib-src/portmidi/libportmidi_s.a when compiling my test program, I had the same problem of no devices appearing.  So the system version is fine, but the local version isn't...  (Also, I'm not completely sure why audacity doesn't link to the system version; it seems to think that it doesn't exist - it may be related to PKG_CHECK_MODULES in the m4 and pkg-config --modversion portmidi saying the package doesn't exist)

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's fairly good that you came up quickly with this hypothesis.  Can you figure out how to test that ad rebuild it?

PRL



On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
It looks like the problem is that portmidi is getting build without alsa support (and thus without support for any interfaces, and thus without devices).  That's... fairly bad.  It seems like this is controlled by #ifdef PMALSA, which isn't defined anywhere; I'm not entirely sure why but it probably just is something that should be done in Makefile.am but isn't.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Paul Licameli
I wonder if portmidi must be build as C and not C++ to avoid some subtle difference of behavior and runtime.

Should we try reverting my change of "C" linkage, so that we can't mistakenly complete a build with it as C++, and then figure out whatever configuration and makefile magic will guarantee that it always builds as C?

PRL


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yep, that fixed it: https://github.com/pokechu22/audacity/commit/f4475a3c2.  (Note that I also have another commit that fixes building with midi disabled before that, along with other build fixes)

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've commented out the #ifdef checks in pmlinux.c.  Now I'm just waiting for everything to (slowly) rebuild on my pi.

It does seem like there may be multiple versions of portmidi at play, one which audacity links to and one which my test program links to.  I actually found that if I change -lportmidi to ../audacity/lib-src/portmidi/libportmidi_s.a when compiling my test program, I had the same problem of no devices appearing.  So the system version is fine, but the local version isn't...  (Also, I'm not completely sure why audacity doesn't link to the system version; it seems to think that it doesn't exist - it may be related to PKG_CHECK_MODULES in the m4 and pkg-config --modversion portmidi saying the package doesn't exist)

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's fairly good that you came up quickly with this hypothesis.  Can you figure out how to test that ad rebuild it?

PRL



On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
It looks like the problem is that portmidi is getting build without alsa support (and thus without support for any interfaces, and thus without devices).  That's... fairly bad.  It seems like this is controlled by #ifdef PMALSA, which isn't defined anywhere; I'm not entirely sure why but it probably just is something that should be done in Makefile.am but isn't.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Pokechu22-3
It's possible, but I don't know for sure.  But note that the C linkage change actually wasn't in portmidi, but rather portaudio.  Both of the libraries do seem to have proper linkage for the public API; the issue was that we needed to go out of the standard API to synchronize with portaudio and that didn't have proper linkage set up.  So we'd want to check both.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
I wonder if portmidi must be build as C and not C++ to avoid some subtle difference of behavior and runtime.

Should we try reverting my change of "C" linkage, so that we can't mistakenly complete a build with it as C++, and then figure out whatever configuration and makefile magic will guarantee that it always builds as C?

PRL


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yep, that fixed it: https://github.com/pokechu22/audacity/commit/f4475a3c2.  (Note that I also have another commit that fixes building with midi disabled before that, along with other build fixes)

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've commented out the #ifdef checks in pmlinux.c.  Now I'm just waiting for everything to (slowly) rebuild on my pi.

It does seem like there may be multiple versions of portmidi at play, one which audacity links to and one which my test program links to.  I actually found that if I change -lportmidi to ../audacity/lib-src/portmidi/libportmidi_s.a when compiling my test program, I had the same problem of no devices appearing.  So the system version is fine, but the local version isn't...  (Also, I'm not completely sure why audacity doesn't link to the system version; it seems to think that it doesn't exist - it may be related to PKG_CHECK_MODULES in the m4 and pkg-config --modversion portmidi saying the package doesn't exist)

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's fairly good that you came up quickly with this hypothesis.  Can you figure out how to test that ad rebuild it?

PRL



On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 5:15 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
It looks like the problem is that portmidi is getting build without alsa support (and thus without support for any interfaces, and thus without devices).  That's... fairly bad.  It seems like this is controlled by #ifdef PMALSA, which isn't defined anywhere; I'm not entirely sure why but it probably just is something that should be done in Makefile.am but isn't.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm very confused now.  I tried to test this, and the results make no sense.  This trivial portmidi test program I wrote works just fine and reports 4 MIDI devices (as it should).  But if I put this at the start of AudacityApp::OnInit (this isn't a good place and does cause other issues, but for my (in)sanity test it's fine):

Pm_Initialize();
wxMessageBox(wxString::Format(wxT("PortMidi reports %d devices"), Pm_CountDevices()), "Test", wxICON_ERROR|wxOK);
Pm_Terminate();

I get 0 devices.  I don't understand why PortMidi would give different results between the two; it doesn't make any sense.

--Poke




On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding single-platform support: I'm still not sure why it no longer is working on Linux.  It used to work when I did my first tests on my pi, but now it doesn't work there.  I'm going to keep looking into that (I'll write a simple portmidi test program that just lists devices, and see if that works).  Cross-platform functionality really should be a thing; I don't know why it refuses to list any devices on Linux.

--Poke

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> - No panic key
>> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> and it should thus say so.
>> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> - no split to channels
>> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> - No MIDI menu
>> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>
>
> This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
> forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
> playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of Stretch
> tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>
> Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172

>
> I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.

I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.

Steve

I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().

So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate Panic is needed.

If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop, but not a cause for a feature enhancement.

PRL

 

>
> PRL
>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>>
>> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >>>> relating
>> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >>>> appear
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >>>> nightlies is
>> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Peter.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows without
>> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >>>
>> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if we
>> >>> don't
>> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >>> disappointment
>> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> single-platform
>> >> (for now).
>> >
>> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a central
>> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> > ago.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >>> manual
>> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.  Most
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >>> would
>> >>> think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >>
>> >> Peter.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli
On 17 July 2017 at 16:02, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> >> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> >> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> >> - No panic key
>> >> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> >> and it should thus say so.
>> >> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> >> - no split to channels
>> >> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> >> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> >> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> >> - No MIDI menu
>> >> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> >> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>> >
>> >
>> > This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
>> > forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
>> > playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of
>> > Stretch
>> > tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>> >
>> > Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?
>>
>>
>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172
>>
>> >
>> > I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.
>>
>> I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
>> pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
>> button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
>> which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.
>>
>> Steve
>
>
> I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops
> by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().
>
> So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate
> Panic is needed.

Initial tests on Mac indicate that "All Notes Off" is NOT being
transmitted on Stop.
To demonstrate the issue, play a MIDI track with an instrument that
has infinite sustain (such as an organ sound). Stop playback while
notes are sounding, and those notes continue to sound (forever).

Steve

>
> If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop,
> but not a cause for a feature enhancement.
>
> PRL
>
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >>
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>> >>
>> >> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> >> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>> >>
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson
>> >> > <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >> >>>> relating
>> >> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >> >>>> appear
>> >> >>>> to
>> >> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >> >>>> nightlies is
>> >> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Cheers,
>> >> >>>> Peter.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows
>> >> >>> without
>> >> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if
>> >> >>> we
>> >> >>> don't
>> >> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >> >>> disappointment
>> >> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> >> single-platform
>> >> >> (for now).
>> >> >
>> >> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> >> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> >> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> >> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a
>> >> > central
>> >> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> >> > ago.
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> >> feature.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >> >>> manual
>> >> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.
>> >> >>> Most
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >> >>> would
>> >> >>> think.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> PRL
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Paul Licameli


On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 July 2017 at 16:02, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> >> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> >> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> >> - No panic key
>> >> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> >> and it should thus say so.
>> >> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> >> - no split to channels
>> >> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> >> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> >> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable that).
>> >> - No MIDI menu
>> >> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> >> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>> >
>> >
>> > This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not be
>> > forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want decent
>> > playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of
>> > Stretch
>> > tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>> >
>> > Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing" part?
>>
>>
>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172
>>
>> >
>> > I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.
>>
>> I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
>> pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
>> button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
>> which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.
>>
>> Steve
>
>
> I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback stops
> by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().
>
> So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no separate
> Panic is needed.

Initial tests on Mac indicate that "All Notes Off" is NOT being
transmitted on Stop.
To demonstrate the issue, play a MIDI track with an instrument that
has infinite sustain (such as an organ sound). Stop playback while
notes are sounding, and those notes continue to sound (forever).


So you have succeeded in building present master on Mac.

I do not observe the same.  There is a call to AllNotesOff() at line 2317 of AudioIO.cpp and I hit it when I stop.

Are there more exact conditions for reproducing the problem?

PRL

 
Steve

>
> If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing Stop,
> but not a cause for a feature enhancement.
>
> PRL
>
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >>
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>> >>
>> >> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement if
>> >> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>> >>
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson
>> >> > <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release testing
>> >> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out for
>> >> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding bugs
>> >> >>>> relating
>> >> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it doesn't
>> >> >>>> appear
>> >> >>>> to
>> >> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with the
>> >> >>>> nightlies is
>> >> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Cheers,
>> >> >>>> Peter.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows
>> >> >>> without
>> >> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving the
>> >> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows if
>> >> >>> we
>> >> >>> don't
>> >> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >> >>> disappointment
>> >> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> >> single-platform
>> >> >> (for now).
>> >> >
>> >> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> >> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> >> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> >> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a
>> >> > central
>> >> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15 years
>> >> > ago.
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> >> feature.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect the
>> >> >>> manual
>> >> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.
>> >> >>> Most
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this limitation, I
>> >> >>> would
>> >> >>> think.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> PRL
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: Is MIDI playback remaining in for 2.2.0

Stevethefiddle
On 20 July 2017 at 14:29, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 17 July 2017 at 16:02, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 17 July 2017 at 15:13, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Robert Hänggi
>> >> > <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Apart from the fact that I like the playback capability, there are
>> >> >> still a lot of features missing or buggy.
>> >> >> - No keyboard support as yet (track buttons/sliders)
>> >> >> - No panic key
>> >> >> - Octave up/down (track drop down menu) is presumably a view setting
>> >> >> and it should thus say so.
>> >> >> - No global effects settings (Volume, Reverb, Chorus...)
>> >> >> - no split to channels
>> >> >> - no mix-down (to MIDI as well as to Audio)
>> >> >> - No "Recent MIDI" file entry.
>> >> >> - Still the problem with FFMpeg import of *.mid (I would disable
>> >> >> that).
>> >> >> - No MIDI menu
>> >> >> - No adaption of built-in effects (where possible)
>> >> >> - No framework for effects (Nyquist version 5?)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > This looks like mostly a wish list of enhancements, which should not
>> >> > be
>> >> > forgotten, but immediate goals must be kept modest.  We just want
>> >> > decent
>> >> > playback and fixing of bugs in the previously existing features of
>> >> > Stretch
>> >> > tool and channel buttons.  Let's walk before we run.
>> >> >
>> >> > Which of these items are just the "buggy" part, not the "missing"
>> >> > part?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=midi&list_id=10172
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I think the import of *.mid -- noted -- but nothing else.
>> >>
>> >> I can't test any of this yet, but a "panic button" is important. Does
>> >> pressing "Stop" send an "all notes off" message? That's what a panic
>> >> button does. Without something like that, notes can get stuck on,
>> >> which is a problem for sounds that can sustain forever.
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >
>> >
>> > I see that AudioIo::StopStream(), which is invoked whenever playback
>> > stops
>> > by whatever means, includes a call to AllNotesOff().
>> >
>> > So I think this means our Stop button or Esc key are enough and no
>> > separate
>> > Panic is needed.
>>
>> Initial tests on Mac indicate that "All Notes Off" is NOT being
>> transmitted on Stop.
>> To demonstrate the issue, play a MIDI track with an instrument that
>> has infinite sustain (such as an organ sound). Stop playback while
>> notes are sounding, and those notes continue to sound (forever).
>>
>
> So you have succeeded in building present master on Mac.
>
> I do not observe the same.  There is a call to AllNotesOff() at line 2317 of
> AudioIO.cpp and I hit it when I stop.

Are going from the code or have you actually tested to see what MIDI
data is transmitted on "Stop"?
On testing with an external MIDI keyboard set to an organ sound,
pressing "Stop" while notes are sounding does not stop the notes.

Steve

>
> Are there more exact conditions for reproducing the problem?
>
> PRL
>
>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> >
>> > If ever we observe notes getting stuck on, that's a bug in existing
>> > Stop,
>> > but not a cause for a feature enhancement.
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > PRL
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's not smart to release an half-baked feature, I think.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> However, the cross-platform availability is the minimum requirement
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> we want to give it a somewhat tolerant start.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Robert
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 17/07/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> > On 17 July 2017 at 13:42, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> > <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> >> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >> >> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Hi Paul (as RM)
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> as we are rapidly approaching semi-freddo and  pre-release
>> >> >> >>>> testing
>> >> >> >>>> what is your RM decision about MIDI playback is it in or out
>> >> >> >>>> for
>> >> >> >>>> 2.2.0?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Impacting on this is the fact we have a number of outstanding
>> >> >> >>>> bugs
>> >> >> >>>> relating
>> >> >> >>>> this, including P1s and P2s - not the least being that it
>> >> >> >>>> doesn't
>> >> >> >>>> appear
>> >> >> >>>> to
>> >> >> >>>> work on Linux.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> I can't test on MAc either right now as Leland's machine with
>> >> >> >>>> the
>> >> >> >>>> nightlies is
>> >> >> >>>> turned off for thrre weeks or more.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Asking really for the impacts on the Manual.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Cheers,
>> >> >> >>>> Peter.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> From what I have seen and heard, it works very well on Windows
>> >> >> >>> without
>> >> >> >>> fuss.  The other two give me some doubts.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> So consider it a certainty for Windows at least.  I'm reserving
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> decision whether to make the feature available only on Windows
>> >> >> >>> if
>> >> >> >>> we
>> >> >> >>> don't
>> >> >> >>> find satisfatory fixes for the others soon.  That will be a
>> >> >> >>> disappointment
>> >> >> >>> but making it work on Windows at least will be a good advance on
>> >> >> >>> 2.1.3.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I support that - but Steve wwill not be happy about it being
>> >> >> >> single-platform
>> >> >> >> (for now).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You're not wrong Peter. I think it would be terrible decision to
>> >> >> > release a major new feature on one platform only, Audacity is a
>> >> >> > cross-platform application, not a Windows application with partial
>> >> >> > support for other platforms. Cross-platform support has been a
>> >> >> > central
>> >> >> > tenet of Audacity pre-dating the release of version 1 over 15
>> >> >> > years
>> >> >> > ago.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Steve
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I would like us to be getting at least some user feedback on this
>> >> >> >> feature.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Suppose we make it windows only.  Would that contingency affect
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> manual
>> >> >> >>> much?  I would think you insert "Windows only" in a few places.
>> >> >> >>> Most
>> >> >> >>> of
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> work is describing the positive new feature, not this
>> >> >> >>> limitation, I
>> >> >> >>> would
>> >> >> >>> think.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> That's my understanding too.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Peter.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> PRL
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >>
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