It's the Law (Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha(

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It's the Law (Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha(

Vaughan Johnson-4
And as to concern about "probabilistic" -- Quantum Physics has laws, too. ;-)

-- V


On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> :-)  There are cases in which Newton's laws don't apply either.  And
> definitely, they were derived from experiments (one with an apple --
> ;-))  ), i.e. empirical. Law 2, for instance, couldn't be formulated
> without measuring F, m, and a, in multiple cases.
>
> I think they're all appropriately called laws.
>
> - Vaughan
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2017-03-27 10:01 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>>> On 27 March 2017 at 05:30, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I suggest we let the users choose that for themselves with more
>>>>> customisable toolbars.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fitt's law is not observed so strongly elsewhere - for example in
>>>>> Edit Toolbar.
>>>>
>>>> That's not justification for changing Transport toolbar. It's pointing
>>>> out a problem elsewhere. Please be more specific about how you think
>>>> Edit Toolbar should change.
>>>>
>>>> It's Fitts's Law, not a Theorem or guideline or speculation or
>>>> preference. It's been proven, as cited in the article.  Yes, we should
>>>> observe it, like Newton's Laws of Motion if we're building a go-cart.
>>
>> You can hardly compare these two 'Laws'.
>>
>> Fitts's Law was stated at a time when pointing devices were not even
>> available (mouse).
>> My alert bells always ring when I hear "empirical", "probabilistic" and so on.
>> The article is mostly concerned with the 1-D case (hitting a W wide
>> target at a D distance on a line).
>>
>> Other important factors are left out, such as the icon's contrast and
>> appearance which influence the hitting rate as well.
>>
>> The law is certainly obeyed in Audacity with regard to the chosen
>> keyboard alternative to the play button: The Space bar.
>>
>> As Steve points out, the actual wave form is the most important thing.
>> As a side note, from a recent discussion can be deduced that Track Pad
>> and Magic Mouse are not the most efficient pointing devices to work
>> with. In fact, there's a new variable that a modified Fitts's Law has
>> to deal with: artificial acceleration.
>> However you turn it, laws of such kind will always end up being mere
>> guide lines, otherwise GUI design would be completely calculable and
>> soon all applications would look alike.
>>
>> Nonetheless, it is fascinating to see that for everything underlying
>> laws can be deferred and extrapolated.
>> It gets interesting if we apply Fitts's law in a thought experiment to
>> the wave form itself:
>> To select a range, the samples near the pointing device can be narrow
>> (zoomed out) while the samples far away had to be increasingly wide
>> (zoomed in) in order to present a perfect target. This is actually
>> quite the contrary of what Paul is designing in his fish eye project.
>> ;)
>>
>> (That wasn't meant as critic, Vaughan, you have better insights in
>> such things. I'm only commenting on behalf of my humble common sense)
>>
>> Regards
>> Robert
>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't argue with Fits's Law, and I'm very glad that you do keep
>>> reminding us of important design principles Vaughan, but it's not the
>>> only relevant design principle / law, and there's more than one way
>>> that Fitt's Law can be applied to this particular problem.
>>>
>>> If transport controls were the only, or overriding consideration, then
>>> the Audacity GUI should have one massive play/stop button in the
>>> middle of the screen, but clearly there are competing considerations.
>>> For many experienced users, including myself, the importance of
>>> transport buttons is fairly low (I mostly use keyboard control for
>>> transport), but where Fits's Law does apply for users such as myself
>>> is in waveform editing. During a typical editing session, the time
>>> spent clicking and dragging on the waveform is vastly greater than the
>>> time clicking the transport buttons.
>>>
>>> The extreme case is where users never use the transport buttons
>>> (always use keyboard commands). We cater for this case by allowing the
>>> transport buttons to be hidden. What we don't cater for is the case
>>> where users occasionally use the transport buttons. I would guess that
>>> this is a large portion of our users. Applying Fitts's Law in this
>>> case would suggest smaller transport buttons so that we can increase
>>> the waveform editing target.
>>>
>>> I agree that it's good to have larger transport buttons by default,
>>> but would argue that regular size transport buttons could be better
>>> for many experienced users, so I support that as an option
>>> (preference).
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - V
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26 March 2017 at 23:15, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:34 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/22/2017 7:01 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Generally if we want more modern icons I don't understand why we
>>>>>>>> persist with huge space-inefficient Transport buttons that make it
>>>>>>>> harder to have simple, separate buttons for different actions.
>>>>>>> It's part of graphic design called the 'little big principle'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The analog in GUI design is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law
>>>>>> . I've cited it every time somebody brings up this idea of shrinking
>>>>>> the Transport buttons . Frustrating that it keeps being suggested.
>>>>>> It's not a good idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

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Re: It's the Law (Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha(

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-30 4:31 GMT+02:00, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>:
> And as to concern about "probabilistic" -- Quantum Physics has laws, too.
> ;-)
Sure enough, actually nothing but probability. I didn't mention my
main concern: the human element coupled with empirical, probabilistic
and so on.
Brexit and Trump election showed that "human" mechanics makes it
sometimes more difficult to predict an outcome than e.g. a particle's
location in the quantum counterpart. ;)

Robert

>
> -- V
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> :-)  There are cases in which Newton's laws don't apply either.  And
>> definitely, they were derived from experiments (one with an apple --
>> ;-))  ), i.e. empirical. Law 2, for instance, couldn't be formulated
>> without measuring F, m, and a, in multiple cases.
>>
>> I think they're all appropriately called laws.
>>
>> - Vaughan
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> 2017-03-27 10:01 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On 27 March 2017 at 05:30, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I suggest we let the users choose that for themselves with more
>>>>>> customisable toolbars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fitt's law is not observed so strongly elsewhere - for example in
>>>>>> Edit Toolbar.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not justification for changing Transport toolbar. It's pointing
>>>>> out a problem elsewhere. Please be more specific about how you think
>>>>> Edit Toolbar should change.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's Fitts's Law, not a Theorem or guideline or speculation or
>>>>> preference. It's been proven, as cited in the article.  Yes, we should
>>>>> observe it, like Newton's Laws of Motion if we're building a go-cart.
>>>
>>> You can hardly compare these two 'Laws'.
>>>
>>> Fitts's Law was stated at a time when pointing devices were not even
>>> available (mouse).
>>> My alert bells always ring when I hear "empirical", "probabilistic" and
>>> so on.
>>> The article is mostly concerned with the 1-D case (hitting a W wide
>>> target at a D distance on a line).
>>>
>>> Other important factors are left out, such as the icon's contrast and
>>> appearance which influence the hitting rate as well.
>>>
>>> The law is certainly obeyed in Audacity with regard to the chosen
>>> keyboard alternative to the play button: The Space bar.
>>>
>>> As Steve points out, the actual wave form is the most important thing.
>>> As a side note, from a recent discussion can be deduced that Track Pad
>>> and Magic Mouse are not the most efficient pointing devices to work
>>> with. In fact, there's a new variable that a modified Fitts's Law has
>>> to deal with: artificial acceleration.
>>> However you turn it, laws of such kind will always end up being mere
>>> guide lines, otherwise GUI design would be completely calculable and
>>> soon all applications would look alike.
>>>
>>> Nonetheless, it is fascinating to see that for everything underlying
>>> laws can be deferred and extrapolated.
>>> It gets interesting if we apply Fitts's law in a thought experiment to
>>> the wave form itself:
>>> To select a range, the samples near the pointing device can be narrow
>>> (zoomed out) while the samples far away had to be increasingly wide
>>> (zoomed in) in order to present a perfect target. This is actually
>>> quite the contrary of what Paul is designing in his fish eye project.
>>> ;)
>>>
>>> (That wasn't meant as critic, Vaughan, you have better insights in
>>> such things. I'm only commenting on behalf of my humble common sense)
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't argue with Fits's Law, and I'm very glad that you do keep
>>>> reminding us of important design principles Vaughan, but it's not the
>>>> only relevant design principle / law, and there's more than one way
>>>> that Fitt's Law can be applied to this particular problem.
>>>>
>>>> If transport controls were the only, or overriding consideration, then
>>>> the Audacity GUI should have one massive play/stop button in the
>>>> middle of the screen, but clearly there are competing considerations.
>>>> For many experienced users, including myself, the importance of
>>>> transport buttons is fairly low (I mostly use keyboard control for
>>>> transport), but where Fits's Law does apply for users such as myself
>>>> is in waveform editing. During a typical editing session, the time
>>>> spent clicking and dragging on the waveform is vastly greater than the
>>>> time clicking the transport buttons.
>>>>
>>>> The extreme case is where users never use the transport buttons
>>>> (always use keyboard commands). We cater for this case by allowing the
>>>> transport buttons to be hidden. What we don't cater for is the case
>>>> where users occasionally use the transport buttons. I would guess that
>>>> this is a large portion of our users. Applying Fitts's Law in this
>>>> case would suggest smaller transport buttons so that we can increase
>>>> the waveform editing target.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that it's good to have larger transport buttons by default,
>>>> but would argue that regular size transport buttons could be better
>>>> for many experienced users, so I support that as an option
>>>> (preference).
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - V
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26 March 2017 at 23:15, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:34 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2017 7:01 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Generally if we want more modern icons I don't understand why we
>>>>>>>>> persist with huge space-inefficient Transport buttons that make it
>>>>>>>>> harder to have simple, separate buttons for different actions.
>>>>>>>> It's part of graphic design called the 'little big principle'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The analog in GUI design is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law
>>>>>>> . I've cited it every time somebody brings up this idea of shrinking
>>>>>>> the Transport buttons . Frustrating that it keeps being suggested.
>>>>>>> It's not a good idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: It's the Law (Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha(

Vaughan Johnson-4
lol! right on!

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 1:59 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2017-03-30 4:31 GMT+02:00, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>:
>> And as to concern about "probabilistic" -- Quantum Physics has laws, too.
>> ;-)
> Sure enough, actually nothing but probability. I didn't mention my
> main concern: the human element coupled with empirical, probabilistic
> and so on.
> Brexit and Trump election showed that "human" mechanics makes it
> sometimes more difficult to predict an outcome than e.g. a particle's
> location in the quantum counterpart. ;)
>
> Robert
>>
>> -- V
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> :-)  There are cases in which Newton's laws don't apply either.  And
>>> definitely, they were derived from experiments (one with an apple --
>>> ;-))  ), i.e. empirical. Law 2, for instance, couldn't be formulated
>>> without measuring F, m, and a, in multiple cases.
>>>
>>> I think they're all appropriately called laws.
>>>
>>> - Vaughan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 2017-03-27 10:01 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> On 27 March 2017 at 05:30, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I suggest we let the users choose that for themselves with more
>>>>>>> customisable toolbars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fitt's law is not observed so strongly elsewhere - for example in
>>>>>>> Edit Toolbar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not justification for changing Transport toolbar. It's pointing
>>>>>> out a problem elsewhere. Please be more specific about how you think
>>>>>> Edit Toolbar should change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's Fitts's Law, not a Theorem or guideline or speculation or
>>>>>> preference. It's been proven, as cited in the article.  Yes, we should
>>>>>> observe it, like Newton's Laws of Motion if we're building a go-cart.
>>>>
>>>> You can hardly compare these two 'Laws'.
>>>>
>>>> Fitts's Law was stated at a time when pointing devices were not even
>>>> available (mouse).
>>>> My alert bells always ring when I hear "empirical", "probabilistic" and
>>>> so on.
>>>> The article is mostly concerned with the 1-D case (hitting a W wide
>>>> target at a D distance on a line).
>>>>
>>>> Other important factors are left out, such as the icon's contrast and
>>>> appearance which influence the hitting rate as well.
>>>>
>>>> The law is certainly obeyed in Audacity with regard to the chosen
>>>> keyboard alternative to the play button: The Space bar.
>>>>
>>>> As Steve points out, the actual wave form is the most important thing.
>>>> As a side note, from a recent discussion can be deduced that Track Pad
>>>> and Magic Mouse are not the most efficient pointing devices to work
>>>> with. In fact, there's a new variable that a modified Fitts's Law has
>>>> to deal with: artificial acceleration.
>>>> However you turn it, laws of such kind will always end up being mere
>>>> guide lines, otherwise GUI design would be completely calculable and
>>>> soon all applications would look alike.
>>>>
>>>> Nonetheless, it is fascinating to see that for everything underlying
>>>> laws can be deferred and extrapolated.
>>>> It gets interesting if we apply Fitts's law in a thought experiment to
>>>> the wave form itself:
>>>> To select a range, the samples near the pointing device can be narrow
>>>> (zoomed out) while the samples far away had to be increasingly wide
>>>> (zoomed in) in order to present a perfect target. This is actually
>>>> quite the contrary of what Paul is designing in his fish eye project.
>>>> ;)
>>>>
>>>> (That wasn't meant as critic, Vaughan, you have better insights in
>>>> such things. I'm only commenting on behalf of my humble common sense)
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't argue with Fits's Law, and I'm very glad that you do keep
>>>>> reminding us of important design principles Vaughan, but it's not the
>>>>> only relevant design principle / law, and there's more than one way
>>>>> that Fitt's Law can be applied to this particular problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> If transport controls were the only, or overriding consideration, then
>>>>> the Audacity GUI should have one massive play/stop button in the
>>>>> middle of the screen, but clearly there are competing considerations.
>>>>> For many experienced users, including myself, the importance of
>>>>> transport buttons is fairly low (I mostly use keyboard control for
>>>>> transport), but where Fits's Law does apply for users such as myself
>>>>> is in waveform editing. During a typical editing session, the time
>>>>> spent clicking and dragging on the waveform is vastly greater than the
>>>>> time clicking the transport buttons.
>>>>>
>>>>> The extreme case is where users never use the transport buttons
>>>>> (always use keyboard commands). We cater for this case by allowing the
>>>>> transport buttons to be hidden. What we don't cater for is the case
>>>>> where users occasionally use the transport buttons. I would guess that
>>>>> this is a large portion of our users. Applying Fitts's Law in this
>>>>> case would suggest smaller transport buttons so that we can increase
>>>>> the waveform editing target.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that it's good to have larger transport buttons by default,
>>>>> but would argue that regular size transport buttons could be better
>>>>> for many experienced users, so I support that as an option
>>>>> (preference).
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26 March 2017 at 23:15, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:34 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/2017 7:01 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Generally if we want more modern icons I don't understand why we
>>>>>>>>>> persist with huge space-inefficient Transport buttons that make it
>>>>>>>>>> harder to have simple, separate buttons for different actions.
>>>>>>>>> It's part of graphic design called the 'little big principle'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The analog in GUI design is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law
>>>>>>>> . I've cited it every time somebody brings up this idea of shrinking
>>>>>>>> the Transport buttons . Frustrating that it keeps being suggested.
>>>>>>>> It's not a good idea.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
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