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Linear vs dB

Stevethefiddle
Track Gain: Linear
Amplification: dB
Track scale (default): linear
Meters (default): dB
Pan / Balance: linear
Normalize: dB
Generators (built-in): Linear
Contrast: dB
Plot Spectrum: dB

Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
mixture.

Steve

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Re: Linear vs dB

Peter Sampson-2
There is some advantage in having default linear waveform and dB meters.

1) The linear waveform  shows more "detail" to the user and looks more
meaningful (whether it is real "detail" or not is debatable). 
It just "looks better" in Linear mode.

2) With the meters set to Linear a perfectly decent, acceptable and workable 
level of -6dB only shows up as 50% apparently giving half as much again
headroom - thereby encourouging users to crank it up  unnecessarily
over-saturating  their signal.

Even with the meters set to -db it's still hard enough to encourage folk to keep
the levels down.  You've only got to look at the myriad "tutorials" about Audacity
uasge on Youtube to see that that is the case, most of them have waveforms
banging about at the extremes of plus 1 to minus 1.

So I would be -1 on changing the default settings for waveform and meter display.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can see an argument for changing the Generators to be dB based.

But is does make sense for me for the Gain slider to be in dB and the Pan
slider liner.  So I, personally, would not change that.

Peter.

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Re: Linear vs dB

James Crook
I think 'pan' is a very special case, and actually, being pedantic,
should be in degrees, -90 to +90. It does not make sense on any kind of
volume scale, log or otherwise, and I would say is not part of the dB or
Linear 'choice'.

For other settings I am minded to agree with Steve's proposal of a
general preference, dB or linear, with default as dB.  I suppose we
could offer dB/mixed/linear and in the manual explain why you might use
each.  We might want to work out a scheme for overall preferences that
are then modifiable case by case if we do introduce a general preference.


On 4/5/2017 10:41 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
> There is some advantage in having default linear waveform and dB meters.
>
> 1) The linear waveform  shows more "detail" to the user and looks more
> meaningful (whether it is real "detail" or not is debatable).
> It just "looks better" in Linear mode.

Linear shows less detail at low levels, where detail is most needed,
e.g. on linear you often can't see low background levels of noise that
you can hear easily.
A positive for linear is that it is affected in a very easy to
understand way by DC offset.
I would contend linear 'looks better' mostly because of familiarity.



> 2) With the meters set to Linear a perfectly decent, acceptable and
> workable
> level of -6dB only shows up as 50% apparently giving half as much again
> headroom - thereby encourouging users to crank it up  unnecessarily
> over-saturating  their signal.
>
> Even with the meters set to -db it's still hard enough to encourage folk to
> keep
> the levels down.  You've only got to look at the myriad "tutorials" about
> Audacity
> uasge on Youtube to see that that is the case, most of them have waveforms
> banging about at the extremes of plus 1 to minus 1.

So an argument for dB?
It's the linear on waveform that encourages people to crank the levels
up (mainly so they use the full range).

> So I would be -1 on changing the default settings for waveform and meter
> display.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can see an argument for changing the Generators to be dB based.
>
> But is does make sense for me for the Gain slider to be in dB and the Pan
> slider liner.  So I, personally, would not change that.
>
> Peter.


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Re: Linear vs dB

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 5 April 2017 at 10:41, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is some advantage in having default linear waveform and dB meters.
>
> 1) The linear waveform  shows more "detail" to the user and looks more
> meaningful (whether it is real "detail" or not is debatable).
> It just "looks better" in Linear mode.

You're confusing scaling with labelling.

It's very common (normal) in other applications to display linear
scaled waveform (so that a sine wave looks like a sine wave) with the
vertical axis labelled in dB. Thus the centre line is -inf, the top
and bottom are 0, and half way between top/bottom and centre is -6.

I'm not suggesting that we change the default scaling anywhere, just
having a preference for which form of labelling to use (rather than a
mishmash).

Steve

>
> 2) With the meters set to Linear a perfectly decent, acceptable and workable
> level of -6dB only shows up as 50% apparently giving half as much again
> headroom - thereby encourouging users to crank it up  unnecessarily
> over-saturating  their signal.
>
> Even with the meters set to -db it's still hard enough to encourage folk to
> keep
> the levels down.  You've only got to look at the myriad "tutorials" about
> Audacity
> uasge on Youtube to see that that is the case, most of them have waveforms
> banging about at the extremes of plus 1 to minus 1.
>
> So I would be -1 on changing the default settings for waveform and meter
> display.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can see an argument for changing the Generators to be dB based.
>
> But is does make sense for me for the Gain slider to be in dB and the Pan
> slider liner.  So I, personally, would not change that.
>
> Peter.
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by James Crook


On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 1:00 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think 'pan' is a very special case, and actually, being pedantic,
should be in degrees, -90 to +90. It does not make sense on any kind of
volume scale, log or otherwise, and I would say is not part of the dB or
Linear 'choice'.

For other settings I am minded to agree with Steve's proposal of a
general preference, dB or linear, with default as dB.  I suppose we
could offer dB/mixed/linear and in the manual explain why you might use
each.  We might want to work out a scheme for overall preferences that
are then modifiable case by case if we do introduce a general preference.


On 4/5/2017 10:41 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
> There is some advantage in having default linear waveform and dB meters.
>
> 1) The linear waveform  shows more "detail" to the user and looks more
> meaningful (whether it is real "detail" or not is debatable).
> It just "looks better" in Linear mode.

Linear shows less detail at low levels, where detail is most needed,
e.g. on linear you often can't see low background levels of noise that
you can hear easily.
A positive for linear is that it is affected in a very easy to
understand way by DC offset.
I would contend linear 'looks better' mostly because of familiarity.



> 2) With the meters set to Linear a perfectly decent, acceptable and
> workable
> level of -6dB only shows up as 50% apparently giving half as much again
> headroom - thereby encourouging users to crank it up  unnecessarily
> over-saturating  their signal.
>
> Even with the meters set to -db it's still hard enough to encourage folk to
> keep
> the levels down.  You've only got to look at the myriad "tutorials" about
> Audacity
> uasge on Youtube to see that that is the case, most of them have waveforms
> banging about at the extremes of plus 1 to minus 1.

So an argument for dB?
It's the linear on waveform that encourages people to crank the levels
up (mainly so they use the full range).

+1

A fair point ...

I'd be more than happy to have "Linear" as the default for both waveform display
as well as the meters (though I can already hear a lot of user queries -s o we'd have
to make clear in the Release Notes what we'd done - and how they can switch
their waveforms back to the familiar Linear if they want (easily done via Preferences
but many of them won't know that).

Plus to do so may be regarded as a "regression" - which technically it isn't as we
are not taking away or breaking any existing functionalty - just changing the UI
a little.

So please ignore my previous -1 beloe from earlier today ;-)


> So I would be -1 on changing the default settings for waveform and meter
> display.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can see an argument for changing the Generators to be dB based.
>
> But is does make sense for me for the Gain slider to be in dB and the Pan
> slider liner.  So I, personally, would not change that.
>
> Peter.


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Re: Linear vs dB

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle


On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5 April 2017 at 10:41, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is some advantage in having default linear waveform and dB meters.
>
> 1) The linear waveform  shows more "detail" to the user and looks more
> meaningful (whether it is real "detail" or not is debatable).
> It just "looks better" in Linear mode.

You're confusing scaling with labelling.

It's very common (normal) in other applications to display linear
scaled waveform (so that a sine wave looks like a sine wave) with the
vertical axis labelled in dB. Thus the centre line is -inf, the top
and bottom are 0, and half way between top/bottom and centre is -6.

ok - so I'm confused - I aways told you I was an audiot ;-))
 

I'm not suggesting that we change the default scaling anywhere, just
having a preference for which form of labelling to use (rather than a
mishmash).

Steve

>
> 2) With the meters set to Linear a perfectly decent, acceptable and workable
> level of -6dB only shows up as 50% apparently giving half as much again
> headroom - thereby encourouging users to crank it up  unnecessarily
> over-saturating  their signal.
>
> Even with the meters set to -db it's still hard enough to encourage folk to
> keep
> the levels down.  You've only got to look at the myriad "tutorials" about
> Audacity
> uasge on Youtube to see that that is the case, most of them have waveforms
> banging about at the extremes of plus 1 to minus 1.
>
> So I would be -1 on changing the default settings for waveform and meter
> display.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can see an argument for changing the Generators to be dB based.
>
> But is does make sense for me for the Gain slider to be in dB and the Pan
> slider liner.  So I, personally, would not change that.
>
> Peter.
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Linear vs dB

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 5 April 2017 at 13:00, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think 'pan' is a very special case, and actually, being pedantic,
> should be in degrees, -90 to +90. It does not make sense on any kind of
> volume scale, log or otherwise, and I would say is not part of the dB or
> Linear 'choice'.

OK, I can go with treating Pan as a special case, though when
considering the different possible "pan laws" I don't think we can
really say that -90 to +90 is a generic fit. Usually Pan is just a
general min / max (left / right) thing without units (0 to 127 for
MIDI controller 10).

"Stereo balance" certainly makes sense a linear / dB scale (It's just
two gain controls really) but I've no problem with also excluding this
from the linear/dB debate.

Steve

>
> For other settings I am minded to agree with Steve's proposal of a
> general preference, dB or linear, with default as dB.  I suppose we
> could offer dB/mixed/linear and in the manual explain why you might use
> each.  We might want to work out a scheme for overall preferences that
> are then modifiable case by case if we do introduce a general preference.
>
>
> On 4/5/2017 10:41 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>> There is some advantage in having default linear waveform and dB meters.
>>
>> 1) The linear waveform  shows more "detail" to the user and looks more
>> meaningful (whether it is real "detail" or not is debatable).
>> It just "looks better" in Linear mode.
>
> Linear shows less detail at low levels, where detail is most needed,
> e.g. on linear you often can't see low background levels of noise that
> you can hear easily.
> A positive for linear is that it is affected in a very easy to
> understand way by DC offset.
> I would contend linear 'looks better' mostly because of familiarity.
>
>
>
>> 2) With the meters set to Linear a perfectly decent, acceptable and
>> workable
>> level of -6dB only shows up as 50% apparently giving half as much again
>> headroom - thereby encourouging users to crank it up  unnecessarily
>> over-saturating  their signal.
>>
>> Even with the meters set to -db it's still hard enough to encourage folk to
>> keep
>> the levels down.  You've only got to look at the myriad "tutorials" about
>> Audacity
>> uasge on Youtube to see that that is the case, most of them have waveforms
>> banging about at the extremes of plus 1 to minus 1.
>
> So an argument for dB?
> It's the linear on waveform that encourages people to crank the levels
> up (mainly so they use the full range).
>
>> So I would be -1 on changing the default settings for waveform and meter
>> display.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I can see an argument for changing the Generators to be dB based.
>>
>> But is does make sense for me for the Gain slider to be in dB and the Pan
>> slider liner.  So I, personally, would not change that.
>>
>> Peter.
>
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
Ooh I now see what you mean Steve - I just generated a sine tone
and switched the waveform view to dB - looks doozy, cetainly doesn't
look siney, not like any sine wave I ever saw (as a mathematicain).

So I think I have to change my mind back again.

+1 for linear waveform display and dB meters (just as we have always had)

Peter.

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Re: Linear vs dB

Stevethefiddle
On 5 April 2017 at 13:52, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ooh I now see what you mean Steve - I just generated a sine tone
> and switched the waveform view to dB - looks doozy, cetainly doesn't
> look siney, not like any sine wave I ever saw (as a mathematicain).

and  try explaining to someone what a "triangle wave" is, in waveform (dB) view.

To generate a triangle wave, use the Nyquist Prompt with:
(hzosc 440 *tri-table*)

Steve

>
> So I think I have to change my mind back again.
>
> +1 for linear waveform display and dB meters (just as we have always had)
>
> Peter.
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Peter Sampson-2
Sawtooth demonstrates similar

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Re: Linear vs dB

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
otherwise.

And to get the current metering default, you would choose
"Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
else?

And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
"Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?



Gale


On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Track Gain: Linear
> Amplification: dB
> Track scale (default): linear
> Meters (default): dB
> Pan / Balance: linear
> Normalize: dB
> Generators (built-in): Linear
> Contrast: dB
> Plot Spectrum: dB
>
> Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
> value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
> preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
> mixture.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Peter Sampson-2


On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
otherwise.


 No, no - as that way it would only encourage folk to oversaturate

And to get the current metering default, you would choose
"Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
else?

And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
"Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?



Gale


On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Track Gain: Linear
> Amplification: dB
> Track scale (default): linear
> Meters (default): dB
> Pan / Balance: linear
> Normalize: dB
> Generators (built-in): Linear
> Contrast: dB
> Plot Spectrum: dB
>
> Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
> value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
> preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
> mixture.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Gale
Administrator
Well then I think the proposal is somewhat inconsistent. How do the
DAW's Steve likes have their meters, when their waveform half way
point is -6 dB?


Gale


On 5 April 2017 at 18:21, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
>> with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
>> change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
>> otherwise.
>
>
>
>  No, no - as that way it would only encourage folk to oversaturate
>>
>>
>> And to get the current metering default, you would choose
>> "Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
>> else?
>>
>> And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
>> "Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > Track Gain: Linear
>> > Amplification: dB
>> > Track scale (default): linear
>> > Meters (default): dB
>> > Pan / Balance: linear
>> > Normalize: dB
>> > Generators (built-in): Linear
>> > Contrast: dB
>> > Plot Spectrum: dB
>> >
>> > Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
>> > value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
>> > preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
>> > mixture.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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>
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Peter Sampson-2
Gale,

Reaper meters are like this - see attachment.

Peter.

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Reaper meters.png (45K) Download Attachment
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Re: Linear vs dB

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 5 April 2017 at 18:14, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
> with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
> change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
> otherwise.

I personally would select "dB" in Preferences, because I find it
generally more useful.
(Is a noise floor of 0.00082 OK?)

I'd imagine that our aspiring audiobook producers would also prefer dB.

No I wouldn't change the meters to -6 dB as the half way point.

Do you think it's 'not' confusing to have "-30" as the half way point
in the meter and "+/- 0.5" as the half way point in the waveform?
Is it 'not' confusing to have 0 dB when the waveform reaches "1"?
Is it 'not' confusing to generate noise at 0.8 then amplify by 1.938
dB to bring it full track height?

>
> And to get the current metering default, you would choose
> "Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
> else?

Meter type: Linear or Logarithmic

Whether the numbers are +/- 1.0, dB, %, 0 to 127, -32768 to 32767, or
whatever, would be a "Preference" setting.
I think we would only want +/- 1.0 or dB, but other options are possible.

>
> And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
> "Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?

Track type: Waveform or Waveform (log)

Labelling of the vertical axis according to the user's preference setting.

Steve

>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Track Gain: Linear
>> Amplification: dB
>> Track scale (default): linear
>> Meters (default): dB
>> Pan / Balance: linear
>> Normalize: dB
>> Generators (built-in): Linear
>> Contrast: dB
>> Plot Spectrum: dB
>>
>> Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
>> value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
>> preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
>> mixture.
>>
>> Steve
>>

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Re: Linear vs dB

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2

On Apr 5, 2017, at 12:21 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
otherwise.


 No, no - as that way it would only encourage folk to oversaturate


Agree, also since recording wants to peak at -6 to -3 db max you lose half of your metering space with -6db in the center.

Cliff

And to get the current metering default, you would choose
"Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
else?

And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
"Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?



Gale


On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Track Gain: Linear
> Amplification: dB
> Track scale (default): linear
> Meters (default): dB
> Pan / Balance: linear
> Normalize: dB
> Generators (built-in): Linear
> Contrast: dB
> Plot Spectrum: dB
>
> Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
> value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
> preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
> mixture.
>
> Steve
>


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Re: Linear vs dB

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle

> On Apr 5, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 5 April 2017 at 18:14, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
>> with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
>> change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
>> otherwise.
>
> I personally would select "dB" in Preferences, because I find it
> generally more useful.
> (Is a noise floor of 0.00082 OK?)
>
> I'd imagine that our aspiring audiobook producers would also prefer dB.
>
> No I wouldn't change the meters to -6 dB as the half way point.
>
> Do you think it's 'not' confusing to have "-30" as the half way point
> in the meter and "+/- 0.5" as the half way point in the waveform?
> Is it 'not' confusing to have 0 dB when the waveform reaches "1"?
> Is it 'not' confusing to generate noise at 0.8 then amplify by 1.938
> dB to bring it full track height?
>

Remember that not all users use the 60db scale. I personally use the 84db scale as I use sound activated recording sometimes and want to see what the noise floor is.

Cliff

>>
>> And to get the current metering default, you would choose
>> "Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
>> else?
>
> Meter type: Linear or Logarithmic
>
> Whether the numbers are +/- 1.0, dB, %, 0 to 127, -32768 to 32767, or
> whatever, would be a "Preference" setting.
> I think we would only want +/- 1.0 or dB, but other options are possible.
>
>>
>> And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
>> "Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?
>
> Track type: Waveform or Waveform (log)
>
> Labelling of the vertical axis according to the user's preference setting.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Track Gain: Linear
>>> Amplification: dB
>>> Track scale (default): linear
>>> Meters (default): dB
>>> Pan / Balance: linear
>>> Normalize: dB
>>> Generators (built-in): Linear
>>> Contrast: dB
>>> Plot Spectrum: dB
>>>
>>> Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
>>> value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
>>> preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
>>> mixture.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 5 April 2017 at 19:09, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5 April 2017 at 18:14, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
>> with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
>> change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
>> otherwise.
>
> I personally would select "dB" in Preferences, because I find it
> generally more useful.
> (Is a noise floor of 0.00082 OK?)
>
> I'd imagine that our aspiring audiobook producers would also prefer dB.
>
> No I wouldn't change the meters to -6 dB as the half way point.
>
> Do you think it's 'not' confusing to have "-30" as the half way point
> in the meter and "+/- 0.5" as the half way point in the waveform?
> Is it 'not' confusing to have 0 dB when the waveform reaches "1"?
> Is it 'not' confusing to generate noise at 0.8 then amplify by 1.938
> dB to bring it full track height?

Yes, a little. I guess it does not give us too much problem because the
user soon correlates the waveform with the meters. Half way along the
meters is half way updown

If anything I think -6 dB in different places on meter and waveform is
worse, because the units are the same for each, but not greatly so.


>> And to get the current metering default, you would choose
>> "Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
>> else?
>
> Meter type: Linear or Logarithmic
>
> Whether the numbers are +/- 1.0, dB, %, 0 to 127, -32768 to 32767, or
> whatever, would be a "Preference" setting.
> I think we would only want +/- 1.0 or dB, but other options are possible.
>
>>
>> And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
>> "Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?
>
> Track type: Waveform or Waveform (log)
>
> Labelling of the vertical axis according to the user's preference setting.
>
> Steve

I see this as low priority and probably requiring some really good
docs and some user support when we change. But I'll go +0.5
on the whole. I quite like the idea of the new default waveform
with dB labelling.


Gale


>> On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Track Gain: Linear
>>> Amplification: dB
>>> Track scale (default): linear
>>> Meters (default): dB
>>> Pan / Balance: linear
>>> Normalize: dB
>>> Generators (built-in): Linear
>>> Contrast: dB
>>> Plot Spectrum: dB
>>>
>>> Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
>>> value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
>>> preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
>>> mixture.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>
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Re: Linear vs dB

Stevethefiddle
I've made a mock-up which may make it a bit clearer what I'm
suggesting. This mock-up is as if "dB" is selected in Preferences.
http://forum.audacityteam.org/download/file.php?id=17385

On 5 April 2017 at 23:35, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5 April 2017 at 19:09, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 5 April 2017 at 18:14, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> So if Steve wants dB default labelling for the waveform but
>>> with linear scale, then should not the default for the meters
>>> change to -6 dB as half way point? It would be confusing
>>> otherwise.
>>
>> I personally would select "dB" in Preferences, because I find it
>> generally more useful.
>> (Is a noise floor of 0.00082 OK?)
>>
>> I'd imagine that our aspiring audiobook producers would also prefer dB.
>>
>> No I wouldn't change the meters to -6 dB as the half way point.
>>
>> Do you think it's 'not' confusing to have "-30" as the half way point
>> in the meter and "+/- 0.5" as the half way point in the waveform?
>> Is it 'not' confusing to have 0 dB when the waveform reaches "1"?
>> Is it 'not' confusing to generate noise at 0.8 then amplify by 1.938
>> dB to bring it full track height?
>
> Yes, a little. I guess it does not give us too much problem because the
> user soon correlates the waveform with the meters. Half way along the
> meters is half way updown
>
> If anything I think -6 dB in different places on meter and waveform is
> worse, because the units are the same for each, but not greatly so.
>
>
>>> And to get the current metering default, you would choose
>>> "Linear" type in Meter Preferences but "dB" labelling somewhere
>>> else?
>>
>> Meter type: Linear or Logarithmic
>>
>> Whether the numbers are +/- 1.0, dB, %, 0 to 127, -32768 to 32767, or
>> whatever, would be a "Preference" setting.
>> I think we would only want +/- 1.0 or dB, but other options are possible.
>>
>>>
>>> And do the Track Control Panel choices then change from
>>> "Waveform" and "Waveform dB" to "Linear" and "Log"?
>>
>> Track type: Waveform or Waveform (log)
>>
>> Labelling of the vertical axis according to the user's preference setting.
>>
>> Steve
>
> I see this as low priority and probably requiring some really good
> docs and some user support when we change. But I'll go +0.5
> on the whole. I quite like the idea of the new default waveform
> with dB labelling.

I'm quite surprised  that you give low importance to such widespread
haphazard inconsistencies in the GUI, but I don't see it as a major
issue either - I guess we've grown accustomed to it.

Steve

>
>
> Gale
>
>
>>> On 5 April 2017 at 10:12, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Track Gain: Linear
>>>> Amplification: dB
>>>> Track scale (default): linear
>>>> Meters (default): dB
>>>> Pan / Balance: linear
>>>> Normalize: dB
>>>> Generators (built-in): Linear
>>>> Contrast: dB
>>>> Plot Spectrum: dB
>>>>
>>>> Clearly some people prefer amplitude / gain to be shown as a linear
>>>> value and some prefer dB. Perhaps it would be less confusing to have a
>>>> preference setting to offer a choice rather than a seemingly random
>>>> mixture.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>
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>
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