Menu Structure Changes

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Menu Structure Changes

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-24 14:08 GMT+01:00, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]>:

>
>> On Mar 24, 2017, at 4:53 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 24 March 2017 at 09:22, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>>>> well
>>>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>>>
>>>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>>>> un-necessary cascade.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but the zoom commands in the menu aslso have buttons in the Edit
>>> Toolbar
>>> (apart from the zoom normal that is)..
>>>
>>> And all have pre-assigned documented shortcuts (apart from zoom to fit
>>> that
>>> is).
>>>
>>> Plus there is the zoom tool and zooming via the mouse scoll wheel.
>>>
>>> So it seems to me that cascading the zoom menu should not inconvenience
>>> too
>>> many people as I'm pretty sure most of them use the bottons or the
>>> shortcuts.
>>> I know that I for one have never used zoom from the menu (except in
>>> documenting
>>> od QA testing) as it's much easier to use the other tools.
>>>
>>> And those that do choose to use it should soon see the shortcuts abd
>>> realize
>>> just
>>> jow valuable they are to aid faster working.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Also on a closely related topic, Inote that the Edit Toolbar lacks a
>>> button
>>> for "Zoom
>>> Normal" which is a function which I'm sure many of us use a lot. I
>>> certainly
>>> do, using
>>> the Ctrl+2 chortcut (which I learned very early on).  This is one of the
>>> reasons that
>>> a while back I wrote the Proposal for splitting off the Zoom functions
>>> into
>>> their own
>>> toolbar and adding additional zoom functionality to such a Zoom Toolbar.
>>> See:
>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ... cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort
>>>
>>> Indeed, many things on most applications are a liability with a trackpad
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I hate the darn things, only using them when absolutely necessary when
>>> no
>>> mouse
>>> is available.
>>
>> It beats me how anyone can use Audacity effectively with a trackpad.
>
> Steve & Peter,
>
> The trackpad has its challenges such as moving exactly horizontally, but
> even though I had used a mouse for years, when I got my MacBook Pro laptop I
> decided to really learn the trackpad and with appropriate tracking speed and
> acceleration settings and practice I much prefer it now over the mouse.
> Somewhat akin to throwing a baseball or throwing a beach ball. The mouse now
> seems awkward and limiting. It helps that the Mac has used trackpads for a
> long time and developed it to the point that it has become quite useful for
> most things. Anyway it can be done and IMO works better generally. The mouse
> has it's place and I realize most people use one exclusively and as well
> most have never used the trackpad enough to be at home with it.
>
> I really appreciate the work Paul put into make more of the gestures useable
> in 2.1.3. It's so nice to be able to do with a flick of a finger(s) what I
> would have to reach over a grab a mouse to do then move back to the
> keyboard. Much quicker and easier for most things.
>
>>
>> I also find Magic Mouse to be horrible for editing because the tracks
>> keep sliding around while I'm trying to make a selection.
>
> Never tried one, but from what I've picked up I'm pretty sure I wouldn't
> like one either.
>
> Cliff
>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>>
>>> Peter.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cliff wrote:
>>>>>>> I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>>>>>>> that they are much faster to find what you want
>>>>>>> and less clicks to get something done
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>>>>>> single-click to
>>>>>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  -
>>>>>> then hover
>>>>>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>>>>>> "Nyquist" and
>>>>>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> click is
>>>>>> really necessary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>>>>>> click
>>>>>> - but often
>>>>>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>>>>>> often  actually
>>>>>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>>>>> always
>>>>> move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired
>>>>> group
>>>>> and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down
>>>>> on
>>>>> the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop
>>>>> down
>>>>> to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem
>>>>> and
>>>>> have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs
>>>>> me.
>>>>> Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving
>>>>> to
>>>>> another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>>>>> horizontal
>>>>> I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>>>>> sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>>>>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality>
>
Hi

I've created the first worksheet (Excel file, please contact for other
formats) with the changes I've proposed previously.

The link with editing rights is:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9qimxjezh3i95v/AABKz3TgUUV4vexZeTHi0VEaa?dl=0

Passive Download link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/09jy7rw925sp2e5/menu_structure.xlsx?dl=0

Some columns are hidden, e.g. the shortcuts.
Feel free to correct any errors, wrong formats etc.

To change an Index, enter it without the '-', e.g. 1080 will be
displayed as 1-080.
The thousands are the menu category number, the -XXX. is the level 1
entry with a increment of 10 (in order to insert max 9 new items).
The fractions are the entries in a sub menu.

I hope that some other comments/notes will be added before Steve
starts his cherry-picking.

Best regards
Robert

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

James Crook
On 3/25/2017 8:25 AM, Robert Hänggi wrote:

> 2017-03-24 14:08 GMT+01:00, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]>:
>>> On Mar 24, 2017, at 4:53 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 24 March 2017 at 09:22, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>>>>> well
>>>>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>>>>
>>>>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>>>>> un-necessary cascade.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the zoom commands in the menu aslso have buttons in the Edit
>>>> Toolbar
>>>> (apart from the zoom normal that is)..
>>>>
>>>> And all have pre-assigned documented shortcuts (apart from zoom to fit
>>>> that
>>>> is).
>>>>
>>>> Plus there is the zoom tool and zooming via the mouse scoll wheel.
>>>>
>>>> So it seems to me that cascading the zoom menu should not inconvenience
>>>> too
>>>> many people as I'm pretty sure most of them use the bottons or the
>>>> shortcuts.
>>>> I know that I for one have never used zoom from the menu (except in
>>>> documenting
>>>> od QA testing) as it's much easier to use the other tools.
>>>>
>>>> And those that do choose to use it should soon see the shortcuts abd
>>>> realize
>>>> just
>>>> jow valuable they are to aid faster working.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Also on a closely related topic, Inote that the Edit Toolbar lacks a
>>>> button
>>>> for "Zoom
>>>> Normal" which is a function which I'm sure many of us use a lot. I
>>>> certainly
>>>> do, using
>>>> the Ctrl+2 chortcut (which I learned very early on).  This is one of the
>>>> reasons that
>>>> a while back I wrote the Proposal for splitting off the Zoom functions
>>>> into
>>>> their own
>>>> toolbar and adding additional zoom functionality to such a Zoom Toolbar.
>>>> See:
>>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ... cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort
>>>> Indeed, many things on most applications are a liability with a trackpad
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> I hate the darn things, only using them when absolutely necessary when
>>>> no
>>>> mouse
>>>> is available.
>>> It beats me how anyone can use Audacity effectively with a trackpad.
>> Steve & Peter,
>>
>> The trackpad has its challenges such as moving exactly horizontally, but
>> even though I had used a mouse for years, when I got my MacBook Pro laptop I
>> decided to really learn the trackpad and with appropriate tracking speed and
>> acceleration settings and practice I much prefer it now over the mouse.
>> Somewhat akin to throwing a baseball or throwing a beach ball. The mouse now
>> seems awkward and limiting. It helps that the Mac has used trackpads for a
>> long time and developed it to the point that it has become quite useful for
>> most things. Anyway it can be done and IMO works better generally. The mouse
>> has it's place and I realize most people use one exclusively and as well
>> most have never used the trackpad enough to be at home with it.
>>
>> I really appreciate the work Paul put into make more of the gestures useable
>> in 2.1.3. It's so nice to be able to do with a flick of a finger(s) what I
>> would have to reach over a grab a mouse to do then move back to the
>> keyboard. Much quicker and easier for most things.
>>
>>> I also find Magic Mouse to be horrible for editing because the tracks
>>> keep sliding around while I'm trying to make a selection.
>> Never tried one, but from what I've picked up I'm pretty sure I wouldn't
>> like one either.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>> Peter.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cliff wrote:
>>>>>>>> I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>>>>>>>> that they are much faster to find what you want
>>>>>>>> and less clicks to get something done
>>>>>>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>>>>>>> single-click to
>>>>>>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  -
>>>>>>> then hover
>>>>>>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>>>>>>> "Nyquist" and
>>>>>>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> click is
>>>>>>> really necessary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>>>>>>> click
>>>>>>> - but often
>>>>>>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>>>>>>> often  actually
>>>>>>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired
>>>>>> group
>>>>>> and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>> Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>>>>>> horizontal
>>>>>> I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>>>>>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org <http://slashdot.org/>!
>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot <http://sdm.link/slashdot>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality>
> Hi
>
> I've created the first worksheet (Excel file, please contact for other
> formats) with the changes I've proposed previously.
>
> The link with editing rights is:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9qimxjezh3i95v/AABKz3TgUUV4vexZeTHi0VEaa?dl=0
>
> Passive Download link:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/09jy7rw925sp2e5/menu_structure.xlsx?dl=0

Cool.

Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.

e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
menu item to do that.

OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
yet)

----
Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
spread between lots of emails.

----

Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?  Is it
actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?

----
For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
recommendation e.g:

Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono

----

What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?


Thanks!

--James.


>
> Some columns are hidden, e.g. the shortcuts.
> Feel free to correct any errors, wrong formats etc.
>
> To change an Index, enter it without the '-', e.g. 1080 will be
> displayed as 1-080.
> The thousands are the menu category number, the -XXX. is the level 1
> entry with a increment of 10 (in order to insert max 9 new items).
> The fractions are the entries in a sub menu.
>
> I hope that some other comments/notes will be added before Steve
> starts his cherry-picking.
>
> Best regards
> Robert
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>


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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Robert Hänggi
Hi James

>
> Cool.
>
> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>
> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
> menu item to do that.
>
> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
I can change the old indices
such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
- new item from scratch
- new item from commands
- deleted item
- moved item
etc.
One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
on the value of this column.
However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.

> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
> yet)
>
> ----
> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
> spread between lots of emails.
>
Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
or other suggestions.
It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
during those lengthy email conversations.
A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
opinion and an initial change proposition.

> ----
>
> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
"Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
of the tracks,
selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
could much improve.



>   Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?

Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
exclude a track from the selection.

> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?

Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
"Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>
> ----
> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
> recommendation e.g:
>
> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>
I was hesitant to do that.
I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
audio IMHO.
Probably rather:

Mix Down
   Stereo to Mono
   Into Single Track
   Into New Track Below
There are also two additions possible:
Gain
Pan

which "burn" the slider settings permanently
in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".

 > ----
>
> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>

"Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --James.

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Gale
Administrator
Thanks, Robert.

Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
their own columns or someone indicates a position change
and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
unusable.

Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
page:

Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".

I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
Crossings" idea, Robert?

Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
"Cursor to" items in Transport? Select is in Edit, as is
traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
for commands to move the cursor.

If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?


Gale


On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi James
>>
>> Cool.
>>
>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>
>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>> menu item to do that.
>>
>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
> I can change the old indices
> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
> - new item from scratch
> - new item from commands
> - deleted item
> - moved item
> etc.
> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
> on the value of this column.
> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>
>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>> yet)
>>
>> ----
>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>> spread between lots of emails.
>>
> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
> or other suggestions.
> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
> during those lengthy email conversations.
> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>
>> ----
>>
>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
> of the tracks,
> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
> could much improve.
>
>
>
>>   Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>
> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
> exclude a track from the selection.
>
>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>
> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>
>> ----
>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>> recommendation e.g:
>>
>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>
> I was hesitant to do that.
> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
> audio IMHO.
> Probably rather:
>
> Mix Down
>    Stereo to Mono
>    Into Single Track
>    Into New Track Below
> There are also two additions possible:
> Gain
> Pan
>
> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>
>  > ----
>>
>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>
>
> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --James.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Stevethefiddle
On 25 March 2017 at 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks, Robert.
>
> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
> unusable.
>
> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
> page:
>
> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>
> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>
> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
> "Cursor to" items in Transport?

You could think of it like skipping to a track on a CD player.

Steve

> Select is in Edit, as is
> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
> for commands to move the cursor.
>
> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi James
>>>
>>> Cool.
>>>
>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>
>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>> menu item to do that.
>>>
>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>> I can change the old indices
>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
>> - new item from scratch
>> - new item from commands
>> - deleted item
>> - moved item
>> etc.
>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>> on the value of this column.
>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>
>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>>> yet)
>>>
>>> ----
>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>
>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>> or other suggestions.
>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>> of the tracks,
>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>> could much improve.
>>
>>
>>
>>>   Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>
>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>
>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>
>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>
>>> ----
>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>
>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>
>> I was hesitant to do that.
>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>> audio IMHO.
>> Probably rather:
>>
>> Mix Down
>>    Stereo to Mono
>>    Into Single Track
>>    Into New Track Below
>> There are also two additions possible:
>> Gain
>> Pan
>>
>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>
>>  > ----
>>>
>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>
>>
>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --James.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> Thanks, Robert.
>
> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
> unusable.
Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.

Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
that are worth having like some that have been suggested.


> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
> page:
>
> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>
> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
> Crossings" idea, Robert?
If it's not editable that's a major drawback.


> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
> "Cursor to" items in Transport?

I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
playing, and continue playing...  If so they could make some sense in
the context of 'Transport' but they also could make some sense elsewhere.


> Select is in Edit, as is
> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
> for commands to move the cursor.
>
> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi James
>>> Cool.
>>>
>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>
>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>> menu item to do that.
>>>
>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>> I can change the old indices
>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
>> - new item from scratch
>> - new item from commands
>> - deleted item
>> - moved item
>> etc.
>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>> on the value of this column.
>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>
>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>>> yet)
>>>
>>> ----
>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>
>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>> or other suggestions.
>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>> of the tracks,
>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>> could much improve.
>>
>>
>>
>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>
>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>> ----
>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>
>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>
>> I was hesitant to do that.
>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>> audio IMHO.
>> Probably rather:
>>
>> Mix Down
>>     Stereo to Mono
>>     Into Single Track
>>     Into New Track Below
>> There are also two additions possible:
>> Gain
>> Pan
>>
>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>
>>   > ----
>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>
>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --James.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Peter Sampson-2
.James wrote:
> I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.

Which would be a great pity given that we are making all these other major
menu changes for 2.2.0 - better, I tgink, to do it in one fell swoop,

Peter.

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 25 March 2017 at 22:29, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 March 2017 at 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thanks, Robert.
>>
>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>> unusable.
>>
>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>> page:
>>
>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>
>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>>
>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>
> You could think of it like skipping to a track on a CD player.
>
> Steve

You can't even use it when the track is playing. It has nothing to
do with Transport, IMO.

And if not in Edit Menu, why not in a "Move cursor to" cascade in
View below "Skip"? The commands currently in "Transport > Cursor
to" do the same as the View > Skip commands - change View
without zooming - the only difference being that the skip commands
don't actually move the selection.

I urge us to think of people trying to find where those commands
have gone.



Gale

>> Select is in Edit, as is
>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>
>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi James
>>>>
>>>> Cool.
>>>>
>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>
>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>
>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>>> I can change the old indices
>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
>>> - new item from scratch
>>> - new item from commands
>>> - deleted item
>>> - moved item
>>> etc.
>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>> on the value of this column.
>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>
>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>>>> yet)
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>
>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>> or other suggestions.
>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>
>>>> ----
>>>>
>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>> of the tracks,
>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>> could much improve.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>   Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>
>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>
>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>
>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>
>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>
>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>> audio IMHO.
>>> Probably rather:
>>>
>>> Mix Down
>>>    Stereo to Mono
>>>    Into Single Track
>>>    Into New Track Below
>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>> Gain
>>> Pan
>>>
>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>
>>>  > ----
>>>>
>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 25 March 2017 at 22:48, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> .James wrote:
>> I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>>which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>>enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>
> Which would be a great pity given that we are making all these other major
> menu changes for 2.2.0 - better, I tgink, to do it in one fell swoop,

+1 to do it now, if we are going to.

I am +1 on a Select Menu, as long as it does not rule out adding a
Tools menu later on, which I think we will probably need sooner or later.

I think the current position of Select in Edit is constraining. It will be
easier to add the new items discussed for Select if it is in its own menu.



Gale

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 25 March 2017 at 22:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> Thanks, Robert.
>>
>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>> unusable.
> Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
> columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
> for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
> which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
> enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>
> Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
> that are worth having like some that have been suggested.
>
>
>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>> page:
>>
>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>
>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
> If it's not editable that's a major drawback.
>
>
>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>
> I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
> put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
> shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
> thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
> playing, and continue playing...

Is this why LEFT/ RIGHT arrow don't nudge the editing cursor
during transport, instead jumping the playback or recording cursor
like period and comma do? I would certainly like to see that fixed,
so we can keyboard nudge the cursor during transport.

Presumably if the Skip to / Cursor to commands worked during
transport, they wouldn't jump the transport position but would
typically move the view position away from the playback/record
cursor. Would that often be useful?


> If so they could make some sense in the context of 'Transport' but
> they also could make some sense elsewhere.

I'm leaning heavily to "elsewhere".



Gale


>> Select is in Edit, as is
>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>
>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi James
>>>> Cool.
>>>>
>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>
>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>
>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>>> I can change the old indices
>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
>>> - new item from scratch
>>> - new item from commands
>>> - deleted item
>>> - moved item
>>> etc.
>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>> on the value of this column.
>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>
>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>>>> yet)
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>
>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>> or other suggestions.
>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>
>>>> ----
>>>>
>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>> of the tracks,
>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>> could much improve.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>
>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>> ----
>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>
>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>
>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>> audio IMHO.
>>> Probably rather:
>>>
>>> Mix Down
>>>     Stereo to Mono
>>>     Into Single Track
>>>     Into New Track Below
>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>> Gain
>>> Pan
>>>
>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>
>>>   > ----
>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>
>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Robert Hänggi
Hi Gale
Could you add the AudacityTeam folder at
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9qimxjezh3i95v/AABKz3TgUUV4vexZeTHi0VEaa?dl=0
to your DropBox?
Can you add your own menu_structure.xls copy with your remarks to this folder?
Later, I will attach the newest version in a post in this thread, if
people can't download the file. Since I'm no Pro user of DropBox, I'm
not able to give a file-specific permission, it seems (although it's
choosable initially).

Perhaps a better solution is to initialize a little Git-hub repository
where developers can push and pull.

Robert

2017-03-26 4:55 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:

> On 25 March 2017 at 22:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> Thanks, Robert.
>>>
>>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>>> unusable.
>> Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
>> columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
>> for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>> which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>> enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>
>> Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
>> that are worth having like some that have been suggested.
>>
>>
>>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>>> page:
>>>
>>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>>
>>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>> If it's not editable that's a major drawback.
>>
>>
>>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>>
>> I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
>> put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
>> shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
>> thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
>> playing, and continue playing...
>
> Is this why LEFT/ RIGHT arrow don't nudge the editing cursor
> during transport, instead jumping the playback or recording cursor
> like period and comma do? I would certainly like to see that fixed,
> so we can keyboard nudge the cursor during transport.
>
> Presumably if the Skip to / Cursor to commands worked during
> transport, they wouldn't jump the transport position but would
> typically move the view position away from the playback/record
> cursor. Would that often be useful?
>
>
>> If so they could make some sense in the context of 'Transport' but
>> they also could make some sense elsewhere.
>
> I'm leaning heavily to "elsewhere".
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>>> Select is in Edit, as is
>>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>>
>>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi James
>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>>
>>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>>>> I can change the old indices
>>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all
>>>> the time.
>>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a
>>>> change like
>>>> - new item from scratch
>>>> - new item from commands
>>>> - deleted item
>>>> - moved item
>>>> etc.
>>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>>> on the value of this column.
>>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>>
>>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as
>>>>> commands
>>>>> yet)
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people,
>>>>> such
>>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The
>>>>> reason
>>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather
>>>>> than
>>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>>
>>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>>> or other suggestions.
>>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>>> of the tracks,
>>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>>> could much improve.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>>
>>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>> ----
>>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>>
>>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>>
>>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>>> audio IMHO.
>>>> Probably rather:
>>>>
>>>> Mix Down
>>>>     Stereo to Mono
>>>>     Into Single Track
>>>>     Into New Track Below
>>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>>> Gain
>>>> Pan
>>>>
>>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>>
>>>>   > ----
>>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>>
>>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before
>>>> 'a'.
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> --James.
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Gale
Administrator
On 26 March 2017 at 10:38, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Gale
> Could you add the AudacityTeam folder at
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9qimxjezh3i95v/AABKz3TgUUV4vexZeTHi0VEaa?dl=0
> to your DropBox?
> Can you add your own menu_structure.xls copy with your remarks to this folder?

Yes it seems so, by downloading, editing and re-uploading:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/toy0ze41x5bhq6g/menu_structure.xlsx?dl=0

I think Robert might be able to add that to his Dropbox.

Can you download it with this link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/toy0ze41x5bhq6g/menu_structure.xlsx?dl=1 ?

I just changed Save Region and Save Cursor Position etc. back to
Store/Stored. I don't know why they were changed from what was
agreed for 2.1.3.



>  Later, I will attach the newest version in a post in this thread, if
> people can't download the file. Since I'm no Pro user of DropBox, I'm
> not able to give a file-specific permission, it seems (although it's
> choosable initially).

Have you shared the folder the files are in? That might help (I'm no
pro user either).


Gale

> Perhaps a better solution is to initialize a little Git-hub repository
> where developers can push and pull.
>
> Robert
>
> 2017-03-26 4:55 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>> On 25 March 2017 at 22:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Robert.
>>>>
>>>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>>>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>>>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>>>> unusable.
>>> Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
>>> columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
>>> for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>>> which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>>> enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
>>> that are worth having like some that have been suggested.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>>>> page:
>>>>
>>>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>>>
>>>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>>>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>>>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>>>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>>> If it's not editable that's a major drawback.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>>>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>>>
>>> I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
>>> put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
>>> shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
>>> thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
>>> playing, and continue playing...
>>
>> Is this why LEFT/ RIGHT arrow don't nudge the editing cursor
>> during transport, instead jumping the playback or recording cursor
>> like period and comma do? I would certainly like to see that fixed,
>> so we can keyboard nudge the cursor during transport.
>>
>> Presumably if the Skip to / Cursor to commands worked during
>> transport, they wouldn't jump the transport position but would
>> typically move the view position away from the playback/record
>> cursor. Would that often be useful?
>>
>>
>>> If so they could make some sense in the context of 'Transport' but
>>> they also could make some sense elsewhere.
>>
>> I'm leaning heavily to "elsewhere".
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>>> Select is in Edit, as is
>>>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>>>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>>>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>>>
>>>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>>>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Hi James
>>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>>>>> I can change the old indices
>>>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all
>>>>> the time.
>>>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a
>>>>> change like
>>>>> - new item from scratch
>>>>> - new item from commands
>>>>> - deleted item
>>>>> - moved item
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>>>> on the value of this column.
>>>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>>>
>>>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as
>>>>>> commands
>>>>>> yet)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The
>>>>>> reason
>>>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>>>> or other suggestions.
>>>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>>>> of the tracks,
>>>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>>>> could much improve.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>>>
>>>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>>>> audio IMHO.
>>>>> Probably rather:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mix Down
>>>>>     Stereo to Mono
>>>>>     Into Single Track
>>>>>     Into New Track Below
>>>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>>>> Gain
>>>>> Pan
>>>>>
>>>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>>>
>>>>>   > ----
>>>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before
>>>>> 'a'.
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 26 March 2017 at 03:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 March 2017 at 22:29, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 25 March 2017 at 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Thanks, Robert.
>>>
>>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>>> unusable.
>>>
>>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>>> page:
>>>
>>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>>
>>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>>>
>>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>>
>> You could think of it like skipping to a track on a CD player.
>>
>> Steve
>
> You can't even use it when the track is playing. It has nothing to
> do with Transport, IMO.

???
Are we talking about the commands:
Cursor to > Selection Start
Cursor to > Selection End
Cursor to > Track Start
Cursor to > Track End
Cursor to > Project Start
Cursor to > Project End

Are these not very much like "rewinding" and "fast forwarding"?
The term "Transport" comes from a historical analogy of tape machines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape_transport

Steve

>
> And if not in Edit Menu, why not in a "Move cursor to" cascade in
> View below "Skip"? The commands currently in "Transport > Cursor
> to" do the same as the View > Skip commands - change View
> without zooming - the only difference being that the skip commands
> don't actually move the selection.
>
> I urge us to think of people trying to find where those commands
> have gone.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>>> Select is in Edit, as is
>>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>>
>>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi James
>>>>>
>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>>
>>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>>>> I can change the old indices
>>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
>>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
>>>> - new item from scratch
>>>> - new item from commands
>>>> - deleted item
>>>> - moved item
>>>> etc.
>>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>>> on the value of this column.
>>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>>
>>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>>>>> yet)
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>>
>>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>>> or other suggestions.
>>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>>> of the tracks,
>>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>>> could much improve.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>   Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>>
>>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>>
>>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>>
>>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>>
>>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>>
>>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>>> audio IMHO.
>>>> Probably rather:
>>>>
>>>> Mix Down
>>>>    Stereo to Mono
>>>>    Into Single Track
>>>>    Into New Track Below
>>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>>> Gain
>>>> Pan
>>>>
>>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>>
>>>>  > ----
>>>>>
>>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> [hidden email]
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>
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 26 March 2017 at 03:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 March 2017 at 22:48, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> .James wrote:
>>> I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>>>which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>>>enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>
>> Which would be a great pity given that we are making all these other major
>> menu changes for 2.2.0 - better, I tgink, to do it in one fell swoop,
>
> +1 to do it now, if we are going to.
>
> I am +1 on a Select Menu, as long as it does not rule out adding a
> Tools menu later on, which I think we will probably need sooner or later.

+1

Steve

>
> I think the current position of Select in Edit is constraining. It will be
> easier to add the new items discussed for Select if it is in its own menu.
>
>
>
> Gale
>

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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 26 March 2017 at 03:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 March 2017 at 22:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> Thanks, Robert.
>>>
>>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>>> unusable.
>> Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
>> columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
>> for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>> which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>> enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>
>> Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
>> that are worth having like some that have been suggested.
>>
>>
>>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>>> page:
>>>
>>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>>
>>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>> If it's not editable that's a major drawback.
>>
>>
>>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>>
>> I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
>> put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
>> shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
>> thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
>> playing, and continue playing...
>
> Is this why LEFT/ RIGHT arrow don't nudge the editing cursor
> during transport, instead jumping the playback or recording cursor
> like period and comma do? I would certainly like to see that fixed,
> so we can keyboard nudge the cursor during transport.
>
> Presumably if the Skip to / Cursor to commands worked during
> transport, they wouldn't jump the transport position but would
> typically move the view position away from the playback/record
> cursor. Would that often be useful?

The "Skip to" commands are intended as "view" options, and are very
useful as such. They should not affect the play position.

"Cursor to" commands should do what they say on the tin. They should
move the playback cursor according to the chosen command. For example,
"Cursor to > Project Start" should move the playback cursor to time =
zero.


Steve

>
>
>> If so they could make some sense in the context of 'Transport' but
>> they also could make some sense elsewhere.
>
> I'm leaning heavily to "elsewhere".
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>>> Select is in Edit, as is
>>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>>
>>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi James
>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>>
>>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>>>> I can change the old indices
>>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
>>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
>>>> - new item from scratch
>>>> - new item from commands
>>>> - deleted item
>>>> - moved item
>>>> etc.
>>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>>> on the value of this column.
>>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>>
>>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>>>>> yet)
>>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>>
>>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>>> or other suggestions.
>>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>>
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>>> of the tracks,
>>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>>> could much improve.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>>
>>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>> ----
>>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>>
>>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>>
>>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>>> audio IMHO.
>>>> Probably rather:
>>>>
>>>> Mix Down
>>>>     Stereo to Mono
>>>>     Into Single Track
>>>>     Into New Track Below
>>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>>> Gain
>>>> Pan
>>>>
>>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>>
>>>>   > ----
>>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>>
>>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> --James.
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by Gale
2017-03-26 20:18 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:

> On 26 March 2017 at 10:38, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Gale
>> Could you add the AudacityTeam folder at
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9qimxjezh3i95v/AABKz3TgUUV4vexZeTHi0VEaa?dl=0
>> to your DropBox?
>> Can you add your own menu_structure.xls copy with your remarks to this
>> folder?
>
> Yes it seems so, by downloading, editing and re-uploading:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/toy0ze41x5bhq6g/menu_structure.xlsx?dl=0
>
> I think Robert might be able to add that to his Dropbox.
>

I got a message and with the link there, I could add it.
> Can you download it with this link
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/toy0ze41x5bhq6g/menu_structure.xlsx?dl=1 ?
>
> I just changed Save Region and Save Cursor Position etc. back to
> Store/Stored. I don't know why they were changed from what was
> agreed for 2.1.3.
>
Yes, that was something on my to-do-list.

>
>
>>  Later, I will attach the newest version in a post in this thread, if
>> people can't download the file. Since I'm no Pro user of DropBox, I'm
>> not able to give a file-specific permission, it seems (although it's
>> choosable initially).
>
> Have you shared the folder the files are in? That might help (I'm no
> pro user either).
>
I think it is better when you share it.
I'm having to folders with the same name now and will delete the old
one--provided I can edit the file in your folder.

*Update*
It seems to work although my computer struggles a lot...
Navigating around is comparably slow (especially on Sunday evening).
Tip: copy the file to another location, edit your comment column and
paste it afterwards into the original.

Anyway, my changes should now be visible in your (Gale's) file.

Cheers
Robert

>
> Gale
>
>> Perhaps a better solution is to initialize a little Git-hub repository
>> where developers can push and pull.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> 2017-03-26 4:55 GMT+02:00, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>:
>>> On 25 March 2017 at 22:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Robert.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>>>>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>>>>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>>>>> unusable.
>>>> Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
>>>> columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
>>>> for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>>>> which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>>>> enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
>>>> that are worth having like some that have been suggested.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>>>>> page:
>>>>>
>>>>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>>>>
>>>>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>>>>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>>>>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>>>>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>>>> If it's not editable that's a major drawback.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>>>>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>>>>
>>>> I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
>>>> put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
>>>> shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
>>>> thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
>>>> playing, and continue playing...
>>>
>>> Is this why LEFT/ RIGHT arrow don't nudge the editing cursor
>>> during transport, instead jumping the playback or recording cursor
>>> like period and comma do? I would certainly like to see that fixed,
>>> so we can keyboard nudge the cursor during transport.
>>>
>>> Presumably if the Skip to / Cursor to commands worked during
>>> transport, they wouldn't jump the transport position but would
>>> typically move the view position away from the playback/record
>>> cursor. Would that often be useful?
>>>
>>>
>>>> If so they could make some sense in the context of 'Transport' but
>>>> they also could make some sense elsewhere.
>>>
>>> I'm leaning heavily to "elsewhere".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Select is in Edit, as is
>>>>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>>>>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>>>>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>>>>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi James
>>>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new
>>>>>>> code,
>>>>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9-
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>> I can change the old indices
>>>>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all
>>>>>> the time.
>>>>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a
>>>>>> change like
>>>>>> - new item from scratch
>>>>>> - new item from commands
>>>>>> - deleted item
>>>>>> - moved item
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>>>>> on the value of this column.
>>>>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as
>>>>>>> commands
>>>>>>> yet)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people,
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The
>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>>>>> or other suggestions.
>>>>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>>>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>>>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>>>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>>>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>>>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>>>>> of the tracks,
>>>>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>>>>> could much improve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>>>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>>>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>>>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>>>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>>>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>>>>> audio IMHO.
>>>>>> Probably rather:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mix Down
>>>>>>     Stereo to Mono
>>>>>>     Into Single Track
>>>>>>     Into New Track Below
>>>>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>>>>> Gain
>>>>>> Pan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>>>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>>>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   > ----
>>>>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>>>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before
>>>>>> 'a'.
>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 26 March 2017 at 19:45, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 26 March 2017 at 03:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 25 March 2017 at 22:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Robert.
>>>>
>>>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>>>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>>>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>>>> unusable.
>>> Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
>>> columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
>>> for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>>> which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>>> enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
>>> that are worth having like some that have been suggested.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>>>> page:
>>>>
>>>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>>>
>>>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>>>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>>>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>>>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>>> If it's not editable that's a major drawback.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>>>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>>>
>>> I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
>>> put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
>>> shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
>>> thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
>>> playing, and continue playing...
>>
>> Is this why LEFT/ RIGHT arrow don't nudge the editing cursor
>> during transport, instead jumping the playback or recording cursor
>> like period and comma do? I would certainly like to see that fixed,
>> so we can keyboard nudge the cursor during transport.
>>
>> Presumably if the Skip to / Cursor to commands worked during
>> transport, they wouldn't jump the transport position but would
>> typically move the view position away from the playback/record
>> cursor. Would that often be useful?
>
> The "Skip to" commands are intended as "view" options, and are very
> useful as such. They should not affect the play position.
>
> "Cursor to" commands should do what they say on the tin. They should
> move the playback cursor according to the chosen command.

But they don't, which is one of my objections. For the functionality
we have now, this seems to me a drastic move from a much more
logical position.

[Yes I do know Skip To Start / End is in Transport Toolbar so I will
retract "nothing to with transport". I don't think it is "much" to do
with it right now.]


>  For example,
> "Cursor to > Project Start" should move the playback cursor to time =
> zero.

And when there is no playback it moves the editing cursor?

If so we have a similar problem that we have with "Store Cursor Position".
In Cursor to > Project Start, it would not be the editing cursor, which is
the usual meaning of "Cursor" in the menus. It would be the editing cursor
when there is no playback and the playback cursor when there is playback.

We've never solved that nomenclature issue.

Also in many cases the commands "Cursor to > *End would merely stop
playback. Would they move the editing cursor to the stop position? It seems
pointless unless they did.

Anyhow if there is a commitment (enh on Bugzilla) to make Transport >
"Cursor to" move the playback cursor and clarity about what happens
when there is no playback and when the command terminates playback,
I might feel better about it. Is this something you actually have planned?

Thanks,


Gale

>>> If so they could make some sense in the context of 'Transport' but
>>> they also could make some sense elsewhere.
>>
>> I'm leaning heavily to "elsewhere".
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>>> Select is in Edit, as is
>>>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>>>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>>>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>>>
>>>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>>>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Hi James
>>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9- are
>>>>> I can change the old indices
>>>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all the time.
>>>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a change like
>>>>> - new item from scratch
>>>>> - new item from commands
>>>>> - deleted item
>>>>> - moved item
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>>>> on the value of this column.
>>>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>>>
>>>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as commands
>>>>>> yet)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people, such
>>>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The reason
>>>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather than
>>>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>>>> or other suggestions.
>>>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>>>> of the tracks,
>>>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>>>> could much improve.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>>>
>>>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>>>> audio IMHO.
>>>>> Probably rather:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mix Down
>>>>>     Stereo to Mono
>>>>>     Into Single Track
>>>>>     Into New Track Below
>>>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>>>> Gain
>>>>> Pan
>>>>>
>>>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>>>
>>>>>   > ----
>>>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before 'a'.
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
2017-03-26 20:45 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:

> On 26 March 2017 at 03:55, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 25 March 2017 at 22:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 3/25/2017 10:16 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Robert.
>>>>
>>>> Surely that document has to be a consensus. If everyone adds
>>>> their own columns or someone indicates a position change
>>>> and someone else indicates a different position change it becomes
>>>> unusable.
>>> Provided the different opinions are not too diverse, I think extra
>>> columns can work, and THEN we need consensus about whether to act on it
>>> for 2.2.0 or not.  I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>>> which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>>> enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless it will have been useful, e.g. identifying new commands
>>> that are worth having like some that have been suggested.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also note there is a suggestion with two votes on Wording Talk
>>>> page:
>>>>
>>>> Change "Ends to zero Crossings" to "At Zero Crossings".
>>>>
>>>> I see no way to edit the document using the "editable" link
>>>> even when signed into Dropbox. Clicking a cell does not
>>>> open it for editing. So could you consider adding that "At Zero
>>>> Crossings" idea, Robert?
>>> If it's not editable that's a major drawback.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Can someone explain why we would want any of the current
>>>> "Cursor to" items in Transport?
>>>
>>> I think I've said already I'm at fault here.  I left them out in DA and
>>> put them there when re-instating them by similarity to skip-to.    But
>>> shouldn't they all be enabled during play?  I know it needs some
>>> thought/programming, but we should be able to move the cursor when
>>> playing, and continue playing...
>>
>> Is this why LEFT/ RIGHT arrow don't nudge the editing cursor
>> during transport, instead jumping the playback or recording cursor
>> like period and comma do? I would certainly like to see that fixed,
>> so we can keyboard nudge the cursor during transport.
>>
>> Presumably if the Skip to / Cursor to commands worked during
>> transport, they wouldn't jump the transport position but would
>> typically move the view position away from the playback/record
>> cursor. Would that often be useful?
>
> The "Skip to" commands are intended as "view" options, and are very
> useful as such. They should not affect the play position.
>
> "Cursor to" commands should do what they say on the tin. They should
> move the playback cursor according to the chosen command. For example,
> "Cursor to > Project Start" should move the playback cursor to time =
> zero.
>
>
> Steve
>

I've seen that you'll already moved the skip commands to view, excellent.

For the "Cursor to", I've temporarily moved them into the select menu:

Select
   ...
   Single Point
      Project Start (Home)
and so on.

Robert

>>
>>
>>> If so they could make some sense in the context of 'Transport' but
>>> they also could make some sense elsewhere.
>>
>> I'm leaning heavily to "elsewhere".
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>>> Select is in Edit, as is
>>>> traditional, despite transport starts from the selection. My
>>>> problem is that Transport is almost the last place I would look
>>>> for commands to move the cursor.
>>>>
>>>> If Edit menu would be too long by moving these commands back
>>>> there, perhaps create a new Labels menu?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25 March 2017 at 10:26, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi James
>>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you add a column for 'Coding Required'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> e.g. splitting Recent Projects into files and audio requires new code,
>>>>>> rather than just moving the menu items about.  Similarly open last
>>>>>> effect (which idea I like) also requires coding as there isn't yet a
>>>>>> menu item to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OR, could you add some automatic mark up so that old-index 1- to 9-
>>>>>> are
>>>>> I can change the old indices
>>>>> such that they skip the select menu as if it would have been there all
>>>>> the time.
>>>>> Thus, a simple comparison between old and new index would indicate a
>>>>> change like
>>>>> - new item from scratch
>>>>> - new item from commands
>>>>> - deleted item
>>>>> - moved item
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> One can of course insert conditional formatting of the rows depending
>>>>> on the value of this column.
>>>>> However, a sighted team member could probably do that better than I.
>>>>>
>>>>>> in bold (they exist already) 20- in light blue (they exist already but
>>>>>> are new in the menus) and 30- in dark blue (they don't exist as
>>>>>> commands
>>>>>> yet)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> Please incorporate suggestions that are relevant from other people,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as Steve's that 'Scrub Ruler (on/off)' migrate into Toolbars. The
>>>>>> reason
>>>>>> for the document is to gather the suggestions into one place rather
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> spread between lots of emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone can add his own column with either a +1 for a change he likes
>>>>> or other suggestions.
>>>>> It's difficult to track each and every suggestion that bubbles up
>>>>> during those lengthy email conversations.
>>>>> A lot is not settled yet anyway and I could only add my subjective
>>>>> opinion and an initial change proposition.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you also comment on the 'toggle' sub menu within select?
>>>>> You mean the Tracks sub menu? The toggle entries are just part of it.
>>>>> "Toggle" is a independent entry that inverts or flips the selectivity
>>>>> of the tracks,
>>>>> selected <>unselected. Steve coined it "toggle" but I think the name
>>>>> could much improve.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>    Is it actually 'focus' rather than 'toggle'?
>>>>> Those toggle entries for the focused track do indeed include or
>>>>> exclude a track from the selection.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are 20-850 and 20-860 the same?
>>>>> Same command, different shortcuts, one is "Return" and the other
>>>>> "Numpad Enter" but we can't list both in a menu therefore I took the
>>>>> one present on Desktop and Laptop equally. Compare also double
>>>>> assignment for e.g. "Play"--Space and Alt+P.
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> For 'naming change recommended', please change to concrete
>>>>>> recommendation e.g:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recommending Mix->Stereo-to-Mono
>>>>>>
>>>>> I was hesitant to do that.
>>>>> I would have dropped the "Render" expression--somewhat misleading for
>>>>> audio IMHO.
>>>>> Probably rather:
>>>>>
>>>>> Mix Down
>>>>>     Stereo to Mono
>>>>>     Into Single Track
>>>>>     Into New Track Below
>>>>> There are also two additions possible:
>>>>> Gain
>>>>> Pan
>>>>>
>>>>> which "burn" the slider settings permanently
>>>>> in place for  the selected tracks without summing them into one track.
>>>>> One could call that "Render Pan/Gain".
>>>>>
>>>>>   > ----
>>>>>> What does 'Manual "&" in Toolbars' mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Reset Toolbars" is rendered by my screen reader as "Reset Toolb&ars".
>>>>> I think there are two '&' in the entry, one before 'r' and one before
>>>>> 'a'.
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
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Re: Menu Structure Changes

Vaughan Johnson-4
In reply to this post by Gale
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 7:28 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 March 2017 at 22:48, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> .James wrote:
>>> I think there is consensus to have a select menu,
>>>which is great, because that is a major step/change.  There may not be
>>>enough consensus to act on it for 2.2.0.
>>
>> Which would be a great pity given that we are making all these other major
>> menu changes for 2.2.0 - better, I tgink, to do it in one fell swoop,
>
> +1 to do it now, if we are going to.

+1 to one swell foop. :-)   If users have to make major adjustments,
they should all be at once.

- V



>
> I am +1 on a Select Menu, as long as it does not rule out adding a
> Tools menu later on, which I think we will probably need sooner or later.
>
> I think the current position of Select in Edit is constraining. It will be
> easier to add the new items discussed for Select if it is in its own menu.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
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