Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)

[Stevethefiddle]

I've not been following this (Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
thread closely as I don't generally use metadata, but as the topic is
about changing the metadata in RIFF files I think it is relevant to
mention an issue that  has recently been identified on the Audacity
forum concerning metadata in AIFF files.

Currently Audacity includes "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO" and "ID3 " chunks.
"NAME" contains Audacity "Track Title"
"AUTH" contains Audacity "Artist Name"
"ANNO" contains Audacity "Comments"
"ID3 " contains Audacity "Album Title, Track Title, Track Number,
Comment, Artist Name, Year, Genre"

Unfortunately, if NAME, AUTH or ANNO contain an odd number of bytes,
then the file will fail completely in iPod Classics and show errors in
several applications, including> (Mac OS X) iTunes, Amadeus, Peak LE
and (Windows) Riff-Pad.

The problem is that Audacity is correctly adding a padding byte when
necessary to make the number of bytes even, and correctly *not
including* that pad byte in ckSize, but iPod Classics and these
applications are incorrectly forgetting about the padding and looking
for the next chunk after ckSize bytes (thus the next chunk is offset
by one byte).

Probably the easiest solution would be to not write the (optional)
Text chunks, but we would not want to do that if there are
applications that use those chunks. Perhaps a better solution would be
to provide options in the Metadata Editor that allow users to NOT
create certain chunks, and for the Text chunks to be disabled by
default on Mac OS X.

Steve

On 13 August 2013 12:54, Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> i think that we are discussing about something which is not a real problem.
>
> Some explanation:
>
> 1) To be compatible with Window, the "LIST" patch within a wav file must absolutely be located at the end of the File, after the data chunk.
>
> 2) For streaming applications, it is nice to get the metadata before receiving the audio data itself.
>
> 3) When we duplicate the "LIST" metadata, "libsndfile" replaces the ID of the first occurrence of the "LIST" chunk with a "PAD " chunk (but the content is maintained).
>
>
> Some observation:
>
> 1) the same happens in foobar2000: the first "LIST" chunk ID is replaced with a "JUNK" chunk and the useful "LIST" metadata is always moved the end when not already there.
>
> 2) I doubt that any streaming application will ever use those "PAD " or "JUNK" metadata.
>
> 3) Moreover, PCM WAV format is almost never used for streaming because of its higher bit-rate.
>
> Conclusion:
>
> 1) Considering that the compatibility with Windows is more important that with hypothetic streaming, i propose that we keep only ONE "LIST" chunk AFTER the "DATA" chunk.
>
> 2) "libsndfile" doesn't process the "Album" and "track" tags correctly. Those tags are important. "libsndfile" must be (slightly) updated. It is done in the patch.
>
>
> ==> In attachment you will find the patch that i propose for commitment. It is exactly the same as the one already checked by Gale, but with only a single "AddStrings()" to create a single "LIST" chunk.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Joel
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 02:19:23 +0100
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files
>>
>>
>> | From Martyn Shaw <[hidden email]>
>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:20:13 +0100
>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files
>>>
>>> On 13/08/2013 00:58, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:16:16 +0200
>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files
>>>>> Gale wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Joel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried this and no applications I tried (Windows Media Player, Foobar
>>>>>> 2000 and VLC on all three platforms) are adversely affected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However I don't know what applications if any need the LIST chunk
>>>>>> before the DATA chunk, so can't test that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also do I assume replacing the "LIST" before the DATA chunk with
>>>>>> "PAD " is known to be sufficient for such applications? Does it work
>>>>>> because the size of "PAD " and "LIST" (at the bottom) is the same?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>> ==> Hello Gale,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know neither! Foobar2000 replaces the "LIST" chunk located
>>>>> at the beginning of the file by a "JUNK" chunk, similar to a "PAD "
>>>>> chunk... For sure, this "JUNK" chunk will never be used.
>>>>> Only streaming applications could be interested to find the metadata
>>>>> at the beginning of the file, but "WAV" format is seldom used for
>>>>> streaming, its bit rate is too high.
>>>>
>>>> OK, but we definitely don't need to actually repeat the metadata
>>>> (in the LIST chunk at the bottom) in a LIST chunk at the top?
>>>
>>> I don't understand that. "...we definitely don't need to..." followed
>>> by a "?" ? Do we have a problem here or not?
>>>
>>> Come on, QA (Gale), is this better than we have now? Does it produce
>>> a problem more than we have? What is the patch to commit?
>>
>> Either patch as I tested them is a big improvement. Windows
>> will now see LIST tags in WAV files (whichever ones that both
>> Audacity and Windows support).
>>
>> The choice between the patches is that this patch tries to help
>> apps that need the LIST tags before the audio data. I thought
>> the patch was thus going to duplicate the LIST chunk before the
>> data. But seemingly this patch still only writes one LIST chunk,
>> relying on a "PAD " chunk before the data instead of a duplicate
>> LIST chunk.
>>
>> As I said, I don't know if this a practical problem unless I find
>> an app that needs the LIST chunk at the top (or set some
>> WAV streaming up somehow). I guess it could be a practical
>> problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> That is,
>>>> if the genre is "Acid" you would find two instances of "Acid" by
>>>> searching in a Hex Editor?
>>>>
>>>> What I am getting at is that there is only seemingly one LIST chunk
>>>> (at the bottom). After the fmt subchunk at the top, there is no
>>>> LIST chunk that I can see - just the "PAD " chunk identifier followed
>>>> by its size, but the chunk only contains zeros after that.
>>>>
>>>> The next chunk is the data subchunk.
>>>>
>>>> If you aren't seeing that, is something wrong?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>
>>
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>
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[Joel Bouchat]

Steve wrote:

----------------------------------------

> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:31:52 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>
> I've not been following this (Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> thread closely as I don't generally use metadata, but as the topic is
> about changing the metadata in RIFF files I think it is relevant to
> mention an issue that has recently been identified on the Audacity
> forum concerning metadata in AIFF files.
>
> Currently Audacity includes "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO" and "ID3 " chunks.
> "NAME" contains Audacity "Track Title"
> "AUTH" contains Audacity "Artist Name"
> "ANNO" contains Audacity "Comments"
> "ID3 " contains Audacity "Album Title, Track Title, Track Number,
> Comment, Artist Name, Year, Genre"
>
> Unfortunately, if NAME, AUTH or ANNO contain an odd number of bytes,
> then the file will fail completely in iPod Classics and show errors in
> several applications, including> (Mac OS X) iTunes, Amadeus, Peak LE
> and (Windows) Riff-Pad.
>
> The problem is that Audacity is correctly adding a padding byte when
> necessary to make the number of bytes even, and correctly *not
> including* that pad byte in ckSize, but iPod Classics and these
> applications are incorrectly forgetting about the padding and looking
> for the next chunk after ckSize bytes (thus the next chunk is offset
> by one byte).
>
> Probably the easiest solution would be to not write the (optional)
> Text chunks, but we would not want to do that if there are
> applications that use those chunks. Perhaps a better solution would be
> to provide options in the Metadata Editor that allow users to NOT
> create certain chunks, and for the Text chunks to be disabled by
> default on Mac OS X.
>
> Steve
>

Hello Steve,

i do not know the problem and i have no way for testing this but maybe that a simple solution would be to add a space character at the end of every even string rather than adding padding ?

Best regards,

Joel    
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[Gale]

| From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
| Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:05:50 +0200
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)

> Steve wrote:
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:31:52 +0100
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >
> > I've not been following this (Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> > thread closely as I don't generally use metadata, but as the topic is
> > about changing the metadata in RIFF files I think it is relevant to
> > mention an issue that has recently been identified on the Audacity
> > forum concerning metadata in AIFF files.
> >
> > Currently Audacity includes "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO" and "ID3 " chunks.
> > "NAME" contains Audacity "Track Title"
> > "AUTH" contains Audacity "Artist Name"
> > "ANNO" contains Audacity "Comments"
> > "ID3 " contains Audacity "Album Title, Track Title, Track Number,
> > Comment, Artist Name, Year, Genre"
> >
> > Unfortunately, if NAME, AUTH or ANNO contain an odd number of bytes,
> > then the file will fail completely in iPod Classics and show errors in
> > several applications, including> (Mac OS X) iTunes, Amadeus, Peak LE
> > and (Windows) Riff-Pad.
> >
> > The problem is that Audacity is correctly adding a padding byte when
> > necessary to make the number of bytes even, and correctly *not
> > including* that pad byte in ckSize, but iPod Classics and these
> > applications are incorrectly forgetting about the padding and looking
> > for the next chunk after ckSize bytes (thus the next chunk is offset
> > by one byte).
> >
> > Probably the easiest solution would be to not write the (optional)
> > Text chunks, but we would not want to do that if there are
> > applications that use those chunks.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> Hello Steve,
>
> i do not know the problem and i have no way for testing this but
> maybe that a simple solution would be to add a space character at the
> end of every even string rather than adding padding ?

That extra space does allow the file to play on the problem iPod
concerned, and is allowable in the AIFF specification.

Given the bugs in old Mac apps, I don't know if adding a trailing space
could itself cause a problem. It's possible we could test that, given
time.

iTunes itself has no problem in playing AIFF files where the optional
chunks have an odd number of bytes, and does not show any error
messages for them. iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
the problem.  

My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
than one chunk for a piece of metadata).  

Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
only when encoding on Mac OS X.  

I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
of the file as well as at the top.

Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.




Gale


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[Stevethefiddle]

On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

| From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
| Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:05:50 +0200

| Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> Steve wrote:
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:31:52 +0100
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >
> > I've not been following this (Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> > thread closely as I don't generally use metadata, but as the topic is
> > about changing the metadata in RIFF files I think it is relevant to
> > mention an issue that has recently been identified on the Audacity
> > forum concerning metadata in AIFF files.
> >
> > Currently Audacity includes "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO" and "ID3 " chunks.
> > "NAME" contains Audacity "Track Title"
> > "AUTH" contains Audacity "Artist Name"
> > "ANNO" contains Audacity "Comments"
> > "ID3 " contains Audacity "Album Title, Track Title, Track Number,
> > Comment, Artist Name, Year, Genre"
> >
> > Unfortunately, if NAME, AUTH or ANNO contain an odd number of bytes,
> > then the file will fail completely in iPod Classics and show errors in
> > several applications, including> (Mac OS X) iTunes, Amadeus, Peak LE
> > and (Windows) Riff-Pad.
> >
> > The problem is that Audacity is correctly adding a padding byte when
> > necessary to make the number of bytes even, and correctly *not
> > including* that pad byte in ckSize, but iPod Classics and these
> > applications are incorrectly forgetting about the padding and looking
> > for the next chunk after ckSize bytes (thus the next chunk is offset
> > by one byte).
> >
> > Probably the easiest solution would be to not write the (optional)
> > Text chunks, but we would not want to do that if there are
> > applications that use those chunks.
> >

> > Steve
> >
>
> Hello Steve,
>
> i do not know the problem and i have no way for testing this but
> maybe that a simple solution would be to add a space character at the
> end of every even string rather than adding padding ?

That extra space does allow the file to play on the problem iPod
concerned, and is allowable in the AIFF specification.

Yes, I manually repaired a file that previously showed the problem by replacing the padding and incrementing ckSize and that solved the problem

Given the bugs in old Mac apps, I don't know if adding a trailing space
could itself cause a problem. It's possible we could test that, given
time.

iTunes itself has no problem in playing AIFF files where the optional
chunks have an odd number of bytes, and does not show any error
messages for them.

 

Thanks for the clarification Gale, I was confused about that (you'll understand why ;-)

 

iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
the problem.

My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
than one chunk for a piece of metadata).

An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track projects if audio is imported).

Steve

Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
only when encoding on Mac OS X.

I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
of the file as well as at the top.

Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.




Gale

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[Joel Bouchat]

Hello Steve, hello Gale,

here is a patch wich adjusts the AIFF metadata chunks to even lengths

I have added a space to the even length strings in such a way that the total length (including '\0' ending char) is also even.
This way the labels "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO", are aligned on even addresses.
But, maybe that i have not well understood, maybe that this is the string length (without '\0') that must be even...?
Another question: in AIFF files, we are not obliged to install the Metadata at the end, we could as well let it at the beginning of the file, should i modify the code in this way?
==> You will find attached at second patch which implements the AIFF tags in this way.

I have no way for testing all this, foobar2000 doesn't recognize aiff metadata and i have no iPod and no MAC.

Best regards,

Joel

________________________________

> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to  
> ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews  
> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>  
> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:05:50 +0200
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2  
> metadata in WAV files)
> > Steve wrote:
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:31:52 +0100
> >> From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >> To:  
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> >> Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to  
> ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >>
> >> I've not been following this (Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >> thread closely as I don't generally use metadata, but as the topic is
> >> about changing the metadata in RIFF files I think it is relevant to
> >> mention an issue that has recently been identified on the Audacity
> >> forum concerning metadata in AIFF files.
> >>
> >> Currently Audacity includes "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO" and "ID3 " chunks.
> >> "NAME" contains Audacity "Track Title"
> >> "AUTH" contains Audacity "Artist Name"
> >> "ANNO" contains Audacity "Comments"
> >> "ID3 " contains Audacity "Album Title, Track Title, Track Number,
> >> Comment, Artist Name, Year, Genre"
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, if NAME, AUTH or ANNO contain an odd number of bytes,
> >> then the file will fail completely in iPod Classics and show errors in
> >> several applications, including> (Mac OS X) iTunes, Amadeus, Peak LE
> >> and (Windows) Riff-Pad.
> >>
> >> The problem is that Audacity is correctly adding a padding byte when
> >> necessary to make the number of bytes even, and correctly *not
> >> including* that pad byte in ckSize, but iPod Classics and these
> >> applications are incorrectly forgetting about the padding and looking
> >> for the next chunk after ckSize bytes (thus the next chunk is offset
> >> by one byte).
> >>
> >> Probably the easiest solution would be to not write the (optional)
> >> Text chunks, but we would not want to do that if there are
> >> applications that use those chunks.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >
> > Hello Steve,
> >
> > i do not know the problem and i have no way for testing this but
> > maybe that a simple solution would be to add a space character at the
> > end of every even string rather than adding padding ?
>  
> That extra space does allow the file to play on the problem iPod
> concerned, and is allowable in the AIFF specification.
>  
> Yes, I manually repaired a file that previously showed the problem by  
> replacing the padding and incrementing ckSize and that solved the  
> problem
>  
> Given the bugs in old Mac apps, I don't know if adding a trailing space
> could itself cause a problem. It's possible we could test that, given
> time.
>  
> iTunes itself has no problem in playing AIFF files where the optional
> chunks have an odd number of bytes, and does not show any error
> messages for them.
>  
> Thanks for the clarification Gale, I was confused about that (you'll  
> understand why ;-)
>  
>  
> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
> the problem.
>  
> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>  
> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would  
> solve the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that  
> would be required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata  
> editor. If it also greyed out the text fields in the editor then it  
> would be blindingly obvious. This would also be useful in other cases  
> where metadata is not wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata  
> to slip into multi-track projects if audio is imported).
>  
> Steve
>  
> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>  
> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
> of the file as well as at the top.
>  
> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Gale
>  
>  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------  
> Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite! It's a  
> free troubleshooting tool designed for production. Get down to  
> code-level detail for bottlenecks, with
> _______________________________________________ audacity-devel mailing  
> list [hidden email]  
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel     

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[Stevethefiddle]

Thanks for this Joel.

It's not easy for me to test either as I don't have an iPod and I'm on
Linux but I can look at the AIFF files in a hex editor and I have part
time access to a Windows machine so I can test with Riff-Pad (slightly
buggy freeware). It will probably take a while to get this properly
tested as Koz is the only support team person that has an old iPod
Classic and Gale is the only one that builds on Mac.

Thanks
Steve

On 14 August 2013 13:13, Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Steve, hello Gale,
>
> here is a patch wich adjusts the AIFF metadata chunks to even lengths
>
> I have added a space to the even length strings in such a way that the total length (including '\0' ending char) is also even.
> This way the labels "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO", are aligned on even addresses.
> But, maybe that i have not well understood, maybe that this is the string length (without '\0') that must be even...?
> Another question: in AIFF files, we are not obliged to install the Metadata at the end, we could as well let it at the beginning of the file, should i modify the code in this way?
> ==> You will find attached at second patch which implements the AIFF tags in this way.
>
> I have no way for testing all this, foobar2000 doesn't recognize aiff metadata and i have no iPod and no MAC.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Joel
>
> ________________________________
>> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to
>> ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews
>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:05:50 +0200
>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2
>> metadata in WAV files)
>> > Steve wrote:
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------
>> >> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:31:52 +0100
>> >> From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >> To:
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >> Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to
>> ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >>
>> >> I've not been following this (Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >> thread closely as I don't generally use metadata, but as the topic is
>> >> about changing the metadata in RIFF files I think it is relevant to
>> >> mention an issue that has recently been identified on the Audacity
>> >> forum concerning metadata in AIFF files.
>> >>
>> >> Currently Audacity includes "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO" and "ID3 " chunks.
>> >> "NAME" contains Audacity "Track Title"
>> >> "AUTH" contains Audacity "Artist Name"
>> >> "ANNO" contains Audacity "Comments"
>> >> "ID3 " contains Audacity "Album Title, Track Title, Track Number,
>> >> Comment, Artist Name, Year, Genre"
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, if NAME, AUTH or ANNO contain an odd number of bytes,
>> >> then the file will fail completely in iPod Classics and show errors in
>> >> several applications, including> (Mac OS X) iTunes, Amadeus, Peak LE
>> >> and (Windows) Riff-Pad.
>> >>
>> >> The problem is that Audacity is correctly adding a padding byte when
>> >> necessary to make the number of bytes even, and correctly *not
>> >> including* that pad byte in ckSize, but iPod Classics and these
>> >> applications are incorrectly forgetting about the padding and looking
>> >> for the next chunk after ckSize bytes (thus the next chunk is offset
>> >> by one byte).
>> >>
>> >> Probably the easiest solution would be to not write the (optional)
>> >> Text chunks, but we would not want to do that if there are
>> >> applications that use those chunks.
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >
>> > Hello Steve,
>> >
>> > i do not know the problem and i have no way for testing this but
>> > maybe that a simple solution would be to add a space character at the
>> > end of every even string rather than adding padding ?
>>
>> That extra space does allow the file to play on the problem iPod
>> concerned, and is allowable in the AIFF specification.
>>
>> Yes, I manually repaired a file that previously showed the problem by
>> replacing the padding and incrementing ckSize and that solved the
>> problem
>>
>> Given the bugs in old Mac apps, I don't know if adding a trailing space
>> could itself cause a problem. It's possible we could test that, given
>> time.
>>
>> iTunes itself has no problem in playing AIFF files where the optional
>> chunks have an odd number of bytes, and does not show any error
>> messages for them.
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification Gale, I was confused about that (you'll
>> understand why ;-)
>>
>>
>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>> the problem.
>>
>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>
>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would
>> solve the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that
>> would be required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata
>> editor. If it also greyed out the text fields in the editor then it
>> would be blindingly obvious. This would also be useful in other cases
>> where metadata is not wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata
>> to slip into multi-track projects if audio is imported).
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>
>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>
>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
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>> list [hidden email]
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[Joel Bouchat]

Steve wrote

> Thanks for this Joel.
>
> It's not easy for me to test either as I don't have an iPod and I'm on
> Linux but I can look at the AIFF files in a hex editor and I have part
> time access to a Windows machine so I can test with Riff-Pad (slightly
> buggy freeware). It will probably take a while to get this properly
> tested as Koz is the only support team person that has an old iPod
> Classic and Gale is the only one that builds on Mac.
>
> Thanks
> Steve

==> Hello Steve,
I have downloaded RiffPad and i have checked some AIFF files... It seems that i have it all wrong! The Labels doesn't need to be aligned on even addresses, but the lengths of the strings must be even (in fact odd, with the added '\0'!).

Here is the fixed patch.

Best regards,

Joel

>
> On 14 August 2013 13:13, Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello Steve, hello Gale,
>>
>> here is a patch wich adjusts the AIFF metadata chunks to even lengths
>>
>> I have added a space to the even length strings in such a way that the total length (including '\0' ending char) is also even.
>> This way the labels "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO", are aligned on even addresses.
>> But, maybe that i have not well understood, maybe that this is the string length (without '\0') that must be even...?
>> Another question: in AIFF files, we are not obliged to install the Metadata at the end, we could as well let it at the beginning of the file, should i modify the code in this way?
>> ==> You will find attached at second patch which implements the AIFF tags in this way.
>>
>> I have no way for testing all this, foobar2000 doesn't recognize aiff metadata and i have no iPod and no MAC.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> ________________________________
>>> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to
>>> ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews
>>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:05:50 +0200
>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2
>>> metadata in WAV files)
>>>> Steve wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:31:52 +0100
>>>>> From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> To:
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to
>>> ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>
>>>>> I've not been following this (Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>> thread closely as I don't generally use metadata, but as the topic is
>>>>> about changing the metadata in RIFF files I think it is relevant to
>>>>> mention an issue that has recently been identified on the Audacity
>>>>> forum concerning metadata in AIFF files.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently Audacity includes "NAME", "AUTH", "ANNO" and "ID3 " chunks.
>>>>> "NAME" contains Audacity "Track Title"
>>>>> "AUTH" contains Audacity "Artist Name"
>>>>> "ANNO" contains Audacity "Comments"
>>>>> "ID3 " contains Audacity "Album Title, Track Title, Track Number,
>>>>> Comment, Artist Name, Year, Genre"
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, if NAME, AUTH or ANNO contain an odd number of bytes,
>>>>> then the file will fail completely in iPod Classics and show errors in
>>>>> several applications, including> (Mac OS X) iTunes, Amadeus, Peak LE
>>>>> and (Windows) Riff-Pad.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that Audacity is correctly adding a padding byte when
>>>>> necessary to make the number of bytes even, and correctly *not
>>>>> including* that pad byte in ckSize, but iPod Classics and these
>>>>> applications are incorrectly forgetting about the padding and looking
>>>>> for the next chunk after ckSize bytes (thus the next chunk is offset
>>>>> by one byte).
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably the easiest solution would be to not write the (optional)
>>>>> Text chunks, but we would not want to do that if there are
>>>>> applications that use those chunks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Steve,
>>>>
>>>> i do not know the problem and i have no way for testing this but
>>>> maybe that a simple solution would be to add a space character at the
>>>> end of every even string rather than adding padding ?
>>>
>>> That extra space does allow the file to play on the problem iPod
>>> concerned, and is allowable in the AIFF specification.
>>>
>>> Yes, I manually repaired a file that previously showed the problem by
>>> replacing the padding and incrementing ckSize and that solved the
>>> problem
>>>
>>> Given the bugs in old Mac apps, I don't know if adding a trailing space
>>> could itself cause a problem. It's possible we could test that, given
>>> time.
>>>
>>> iTunes itself has no problem in playing AIFF files where the optional
>>> chunks have an odd number of bytes, and does not show any error
>>> messages for them.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the clarification Gale, I was confused about that (you'll
>>> understand why ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>> the problem.
>>>
>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>
>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would
>>> solve the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that
>>> would be required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata
>>> editor. If it also greyed out the text fields in the editor then it
>>> would be blindingly obvious. This would also be useful in other cases
>>> where metadata is not wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata
>>> to slip into multi-track projects if audio is imported).
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>
>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>
>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite! It's a
>>> free troubleshooting tool designed for production. Get down to
>>> code-level detail for bottlenecks, with
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>>> list [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>
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>
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[Gale]

| From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
| Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
[...]

> >
> > iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
> > an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
> > the problem.
> >
> > My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
> > of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
> > than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
> >
>
> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
> projects if audio is imported).

Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
It's an option we should have in any case IMO.  

"No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.

Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
the context of fixing bug 551:
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .

That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
(instead of having a Preference to do that).

I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.



Gale

> > Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
> > only when encoding on Mac OS X.
> >
> > I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
> > and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
> > of the file as well as at the top.
> >
> > Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
> > I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
> > that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gale
> >
> >
> >

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[Joel Bouchat]

Hello Steve, hello Gale,


in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the beginning of the file before the SSND data.
This is the best solution for streaming.
But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).

Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.


I also think that some way to disable all tags when exporting - without losing the tag strings themselfs - would be nice.
This would not only be useful for the iPod but for other audio players too: the new tendency is to use "cue files" or "cue lists" which hold all the information and the "track cut" outside the audio file itself, but within the same directory. In the same directory are also stored other informations about the album: lyrics, pictures, comments, ... The "object" is no more the music file, but the whole "album" directory.
In this case the metadata inside the audio file is redundant.

Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the best place to install this option is to add a check box within this dialog box. I could easily do that.

The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.

Best regards,

Joel

----------------------------------------

> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>
>
> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...]
>>>
>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>> the problem.
>>>
>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>
>>
>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>> projects if audio is imported).
>
> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>
> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>
> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
> the context of fixing bug 551:
> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
>
> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>
> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>
>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>
>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
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[Gale]

| From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
| Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
> This is the best solution for streaming.
> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>
> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.

OK thanks. I'll try both.


> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
> dialog box. I could easily do that.

Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.

So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.

So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
control also decide if metadata is exported or not.

But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
know your ideas (probably a separate topic).  

 
> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.

Thanks for thinking about that.

What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
(e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?

It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.

You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?  



Gale

 

> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >
> >
> > | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> > | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
> > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > [...]
> >>>
> >>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
> >>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
> >>> the problem.
> >>>
> >>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
> >>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
> >>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
> >>>
> >>
> >> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
> >> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
> >> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
> >> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
> >> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
> >> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
> >> projects if audio is imported).
> >
> > Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
> > It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
> >
> > "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
> > issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
> > is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
> > it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
> > metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
> >
> > Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
> > the context of fixing bug 551:
> > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
> >
> > That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
> > the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
> > (instead of having a Preference to do that).
> >
> > I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
> > know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
> > iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
> > probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gale
> >
> >>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
> >>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
> >>>
> >>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
> >>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
> >>> of the file as well as at the top.
> >>>
> >>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
> >>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
> >>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gale

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[Stevethefiddle]

On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>>
>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>
> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>
>
>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>
> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>
> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>
> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>
> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>
>
>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>
> Thanks for thinking about that.
>
> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>
> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.

"Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
Steve

>
> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > To: [hidden email]
>> > Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >
>> >
>> > | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> > | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>> > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > [...]
>> >>>
>> >>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>> >>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>> >>> the problem.
>> >>>
>> >>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>> >>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>> >>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>> >> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>> >> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>> >> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>> >> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>> >> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>> >> projects if audio is imported).
>> >
>> > Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>> > It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>> >
>> > "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>> > issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>> > is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>> > it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>> > metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>> >
>> > Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>> > the context of fixing bug 551:
>> > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
>> >
>> > That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>> > the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>> > (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>> >
>> > I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>> > know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>> > iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>> > probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Gale
>> >
>> >>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>> >>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>> >>>
>> >>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>> >>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>> >>> of the file as well as at the top.
>> >>>
>> >>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>> >>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>> >>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Gale
>
>
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[Joel Bouchat]

Hello Gale, Hello Steve,

I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!

As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog, because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before exporting. I seldom click on the "Option" button to get access to the format settings. For me, the default settings are ok: i always use FLAC or PCM format, at 16 bits (I cannot hear any difference between audio tracks at 16 bits or 24 bits!).

Now, other users have probably other habitudes. Could the question be posted on the User forum?

For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only applies to the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is not intuitive (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely more than a single export command at the end of a chain...
But i can add this option to every ExportXXX dialog box if you prefer... just tell me!

Best regards,

Joel

----------------------------------------

> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>
> On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
>>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>>>
>>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>>
>> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>>
>>
>>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>>
>> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
>> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>>
>> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
>> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
>> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
>> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>>
>> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
>> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
>> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>>
>> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
>> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>>
>>
>>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>>
>> Thanks for thinking about that.
>>
>> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
>> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
>> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>>
>> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
>
> "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
> Steve
>
>>
>> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
>> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>>>>> projects if audio is imported).
>>>>
>>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>>>>
>>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
>>>>
>>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>>>>
>>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>
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[Stevethefiddle]

On 16 August 2013 12:56, Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello Gale, Hello Steve,
>
> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!
>
> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog, because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before exporting. I seldom click on the "Option" button to get access to the format settings. For me, the default settings are ok: i always use FLAC or PCM format, at 16 bits (I cannot hear any difference between audio tracks at 16 bits or 24 bits!).

As a user of Audacity, my preference would be to be able to set it
once, disable the Metadata Editor pop-up, and then forget about it,
because I never use metadata in Audacity. I don't personally mind
where that option is, though if it is in the Metadata Editor then
users will stumble across it the first time that they export.

>
> Now, other users have probably other habitudes. Could the question be posted on the User forum?

Yes, good idea. We can do that.

Steve

>
> For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only applies to the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is not intuitive (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely more than a single export command at the end of a chain...
> But i can add this option to every ExportXXX dialog box if you prefer... just tell me!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Joel
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>
>> On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>>> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>>>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>>>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>>>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>>>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
>>>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>>>>
>>>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>>>
>>> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>>>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>>>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>>>
>>> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
>>> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>>>
>>> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
>>> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
>>> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
>>> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>>>
>>> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
>>> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
>>> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>>>
>>> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
>>> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>>>
>>>
>>>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>>>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>>>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>>>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>>>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>>>
>>> Thanks for thinking about that.
>>>
>>> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
>>> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
>>> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>>>
>>> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
>>
>> "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
>> Steve
>>
>>>
>>> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
>>> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>>>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>>>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>>>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>>>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>>>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>>>>>> projects if audio is imported).
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>>>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>>>>>
>>>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>>>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>>>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>>>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>>>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>>>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
>>>>>
>>>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>>>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>>>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>>>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>>>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>>>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>>>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>>>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Peter Sampson]

Steve wrote:

>As a user of Audacity, my preference would be to be able to set it
>once, disable the Metadata Editor pop-up, and then forget about it,
>because I never use metadata in Audacity.

 

A big +1 to that

 

Like Steve I never use metadata in Audacity - I do that in iTunes

once I have exported the file from Audacity.

 

Peter

 

Peter Sampson
Tel: [phone]
Mob: [phone]

From: Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
To: Audacity-Devel list <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)

On 16 August 2013 12:56, Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello Gale, Hello Steve,
>
> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!
>
> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog, because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before exporting. I seldom click on the "Option" button to get access to the format settings. For me, the default settings are ok: i always use FLAC or PCM format, at 16 bits (I cannot hear any difference between audio tracks at 16 bits or 24 bits!).

As a user of Audacity, my preference would be to be able to set it
once, disable the Metadata Editor pop-up, and then forget about it,
because I never use metadata in Audacity. I don't personally mind
where that option is, though if it is in the Metadata Editor then
users will stumble across it the first time that they export.

>
> Now, other users have probably other habitudes. Could the question be posted on the User forum?

Yes, good idea. We can do that.

Steve

>
> For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only applies to the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is not intuitive (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely more than a single export command at the end of a chain...
> But i can add this option to every ExportXXX dialog box if you prefer... just tell me!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Joel
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>
>> On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>>> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>>>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>>>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>>>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>>>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
>>>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>>>>
>>>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>>>
>>> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>>>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>>>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>>>
>>> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
>>> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>>>
>>> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
>>> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
>>> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
>>> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>>>
>>> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
>>> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
>>> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>>>
>>> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
>>> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>>>
>>>
>>>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>>>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>>>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>>>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>>>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>>>
>>> Thanks for thinking about that.
>>>
>>> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
>>> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
>>> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>>>
>>> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
>>
>> "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
>> Steve
>>
>>>
>>> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
>>> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>>>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>>>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>>>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>>>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>>>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>>>>>> projects if audio is imported).
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>>>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>>>>>
>>>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>>>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>>>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>>>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>>>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>>>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551.
>>>>>
>>>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>>>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>>>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>>>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>>>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>>>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>>>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>>>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
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[Stevethefiddle]

I've raised it on the forum here:
http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=74049

Steve

On 16 August 2013 13:44, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steve wrote:
>>As a user of Audacity, my preference would be to be able to set it
>>once, disable the Metadata Editor pop-up, and then forget about it,
>>because I never use metadata in Audacity.
>
> A big +1 to that
>
> Like Steve I never use metadata in Audacity - I do that in iTunes
> once I have exported the file from Audacity.
>
> Peter
>
> Peter Sampson
> Tel: [phone]
> Mob: [phone]
>
> From: Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> To: Audacity-Devel list <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 1:09 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2
> metadata in WAV files)
>
> On 16 August 2013 12:56, Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello Gale, Hello Steve,
>>
>> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just
>> tell me!
>>
>> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the
>> Metadata Edition dialog, because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i
>> always have a look to the metadata before exporting. I seldom click on the
>> "Option" button to get access to the format settings. For me, the default
>> settings are ok: i always use FLAC or PCM format, at 16 bits (I cannot hear
>> any difference between audio tracks at 16 bits or 24 bits!).
>
> As a user of Audacity, my preference would be to be able to set it
> once, disable the Metadata Editor pop-up, and then forget about it,
> because I never use metadata in Audacity. I don't personally mind
> where that option is, though if it is in the Metadata Editor then
> users will stumble across it the first time that they export.
>
>>
>> Now, other users have probably other habitudes. Could the question be
>> posted on the User forum?
>
> Yes, good idea. We can do that.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>> For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only applies to
>> the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is not intuitive
>> (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely more than a single
>> export command at the end of a chain...
>> But i can add this option to every ExportXXX dialog box if you prefer...
>> just tell me!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2
>>> metadata in WAV files)
>>>
>>> On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>>>> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2
>>>> metadata in WAV files)
>>>>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>>>>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>>>>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>>>>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>>>>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a
>>>>> patch
>>>>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>>>>
>>>> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>>>>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>>>>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
>>>> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>>>>
>>>> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
>>>> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
>>>> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
>>>> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>>>>
>>>> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
>>>> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
>>>> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>>>>
>>>> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
>>>> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>>>>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>>>>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>>>>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>>>>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for thinking about that.
>>>>
>>>> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
>>>> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
>>>> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>>>>
>>>> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
>>>
>>> "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
>>>> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to
>>>>>> ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2
>>>>>> metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>>>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>>>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>>>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would
>>>>>>> solve
>>>>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>>>>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into
>>>>>>> multi-track
>>>>>>> projects if audio is imported).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>>>>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>>>>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>>>>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>>>>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>>>>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>>>>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
>>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>>>>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>>>>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>>>>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>>>>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>>>>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional
>>>>>>>> chunks
>>>>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>>>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>>>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch
>>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>>
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[Gale]

| From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
| Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:56:42 +0200
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!
>
> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog,
> because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before
> exporting.

Sorry this is turning into a long discussion. Perhaps we should
move "where to implement a no metadata choice" to -quality if it
needs much debate.

I really doubt giving Metadata Editor a checkbox to disable
metadata is a good idea until we decide how to fix bug 551.

Fixing 551 has many more votes than "no metadata". Some people
even go back to 1.2 because of 551. "No metadata" is not the
most effective fix for the iPod Classic problem IMO.  
 
Due to bug 551 we've had to recommend in the Manual that
people disable showing the Metadata Editor in Preferences.
Because of that, people get the reasonable (but wrong) idea
that they could disable metadata by turning off Metadata Editor
in Preferences. Even the Manual says that hiding Metadata Editor
makes Audacity not write metadata (I'll fix that).  

That's why I think the most intuitive approach may be to instead
make hiding Metadata Editor (thereby killing metadata export)
a choice at the Export/Export Selection/Export Multiple step.
If you don't want metadata, why show the editor?  


> For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only
> applies to the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is
> not intuitive (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely
> more than a single export command at the end of a chain...

The use case I gave is not that uncommon so I think a no
metadata choice for each format is more flexible and intuitive.      

I don't object to having a "No Metadata" command instead, as
long as it was at the top of the "Choose command" list where it
could be seen.  



Gale



 ----------------------------------------

> > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >
> > On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
> >> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
> >> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
> >>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
> >>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
> >>> This is the best solution for streaming.
> >>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
> >>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
> >>>
> >>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
> >>
> >> OK thanks. I'll try both.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
> >>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
> >>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
> >>
> >> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
> >> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
> >>
> >> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
> >> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
> >> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
> >> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
> >>
> >> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
> >> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
> >> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
> >>
> >> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
> >> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
> >>
> >>
> >>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
> >>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
> >>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
> >>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
> >>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
> >>
> >> Thanks for thinking about that.
> >>
> >> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
> >> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
> >> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
> >>
> >> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
> >
> > "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
> > Steve
> >
> >>
> >> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
> >> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gale
> >>
> >>
> >>> ----------------------------------------
> >>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
> >>>> From: [hidden email]
> >>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> >>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
> >>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>> [...]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
> >>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
> >>>>>> the problem.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
> >>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
> >>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
> >>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
> >>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
> >>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
> >>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
> >>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
> >>>>> projects if audio is imported).
> >>>>
> >>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
> >>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
> >>>>
> >>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
> >>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
> >>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
> >>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
> >>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
> >>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
> >>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
> >>>>
> >>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
> >>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
> >>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
> >>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
> >>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
> >>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Gale
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
> >>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
> >>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
> >>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
> >>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
> >>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gale

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[Stevethefiddle]

On 16 August 2013 17:06, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
> | Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:56:42 +0200
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!
>>
>> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog,
>> because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before
>> exporting.
>
> Sorry this is turning into a long discussion. Perhaps we should
> move "where to implement a no metadata choice" to -quality if it
> needs much debate.

That might have been a good idea before raising more contentious issues.

>
> I really doubt giving Metadata Editor a checkbox to disable
> metadata is a good idea until we decide how to fix bug 551.
>
> Fixing 551 has many more votes than "no metadata".

Sorry Gale but that is totally irrelevant. We don't vote on bugs. Bugs
are things that happen by accident and require fixing. Votes don't
come into it.

> Some people
> even go back to 1.2 because of 551. "No metadata" is not the
> most effective fix for the iPod Classic problem IMO.

No it's probably not, but Joel has put forward a separate patch for
that. We are now discussing the issue of allowing users to export
files without metadata.

In case anyone missed my previous post I have raised the question of
disabling Metadata on the forum, which opens up the discussion to a
wider audience that just the devel/QA lists. However if you would also
like to discuss the issue on QA then I'd suggest that you start a new
topic there so that we don't confuse this question with other issues
about metadata.

>
> Due to bug 551 we've had to recommend in the Manual that
> people disable showing the Metadata Editor in Preferences.
> Because of that, people get the reasonable (but wrong) idea
> that they could disable metadata by turning off Metadata Editor
> in Preferences. Even the Manual says that hiding Metadata Editor
> makes Audacity not write metadata (I'll fix that).
>
> That's why I think the most intuitive approach may be to instead
> make hiding Metadata Editor (thereby killing metadata export)
> a choice at the Export/Export Selection/Export Multiple step.
> If you don't want metadata, why show the editor?

Basing a design decision on a bug workaround is wrong and I strongly
oppose doing so.

Steve

>
>
>> For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only
>> applies to the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is
>> not intuitive (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely
>> more than a single export command at the end of a chain...
>
> The use case I gave is not that uncommon so I think a no
> metadata choice for each format is more flexible and intuitive.
>
> I don't object to having a "No Metadata" command instead, as
> long as it was at the top of the "Choose command" list where it
> could be seen.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
>  ----------------------------------------
>> > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > To: [hidden email]
>> > Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >
>> > On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>> >> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
>> >> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>> >>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>> >>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>> >>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>> >>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
>> >>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>> >>>
>> >>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>> >>
>> >> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>> >>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>> >>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
>> >> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>> >>
>> >> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
>> >> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
>> >> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
>> >> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>> >>
>> >> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
>> >> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
>> >> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>> >>
>> >> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
>> >> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>> >>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>> >>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>> >>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>> >>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for thinking about that.
>> >>
>> >> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
>> >> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
>> >> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>> >>
>> >> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
>> >
>> > "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
>> >> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> ----------------------------------------
>> >>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>> >>>> From: [hidden email]
>> >>>> To: [hidden email]
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> >>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>> >>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> >>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>> [...]
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>> >>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>> >>>>>> the problem.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>> >>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>> >>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>> >>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>> >>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>> >>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>> >>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>> >>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>> >>>>> projects if audio is imported).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>> >>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>> >>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>> >>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>> >>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>> >>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>> >>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
>> >>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>> >>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>> >>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>> >>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>> >>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>> >>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gale
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>> >>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>> >>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>> >>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>> >>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>> >>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Gale
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Joel Bouchat]

Hello Gale, hello Steve,


Here is a small patch which implements the "disable metadata" check box in the way described by Steve on the User forum.
It seems to me that this method is convenient and very simple.

REMARK: the metadata disabling is dummy: this patch it is just for experimenting the Dialog interface!
The metadata is not really disabled. For this purpose i have to patch the Export commands and this would conflict with my other work on PCM metadata and ID3V2 metadata. I must wait that those other patches are committed before implementing the disabling.

Best regards,

Joel

P.S: where can i find a complete description of the bug 551 ?


----------------------------------------

> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:06:55 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>
>
> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
> | Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:56:42 +0200
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!
>>
>> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog,
>> because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before
>> exporting.
>
> Sorry this is turning into a long discussion. Perhaps we should
> move "where to implement a no metadata choice" to -quality if it
> needs much debate.
>
> I really doubt giving Metadata Editor a checkbox to disable
> metadata is a good idea until we decide how to fix bug 551.
>
> Fixing 551 has many more votes than "no metadata". Some people
> even go back to 1.2 because of 551. "No metadata" is not the
> most effective fix for the iPod Classic problem IMO.
>
> Due to bug 551 we've had to recommend in the Manual that
> people disable showing the Metadata Editor in Preferences.
> Because of that, people get the reasonable (but wrong) idea
> that they could disable metadata by turning off Metadata Editor
> in Preferences. Even the Manual says that hiding Metadata Editor
> makes Audacity not write metadata (I'll fix that).
>
> That's why I think the most intuitive approach may be to instead
> make hiding Metadata Editor (thereby killing metadata export)
> a choice at the Export/Export Selection/Export Multiple step.
> If you don't want metadata, why show the editor?
>
>
>> For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only
>> applies to the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is
>> not intuitive (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely
>> more than a single export command at the end of a chain...
>
> The use case I gave is not that uncommon so I think a no
> metadata choice for each format is more flexible and intuitive.
>
> I don't object to having a "No Metadata" command instead, as
> long as it was at the top of the "Choose command" list where it
> could be seen.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>
>>> On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>>>> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>>>>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>>>>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>>>>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>>>>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
>>>>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>>>>
>>>> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>>>>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>>>>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
>>>> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>>>>
>>>> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
>>>> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
>>>> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
>>>> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>>>>
>>>> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
>>>> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
>>>> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>>>>
>>>> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
>>>> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>>>>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>>>>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>>>>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>>>>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for thinking about that.
>>>>
>>>> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
>>>> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
>>>> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>>>>
>>>> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
>>>
>>> "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
>>>> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>>>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>>>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>>>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>>>>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>>>>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>>>>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>>>>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>>>>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>>>>>>> projects if audio is imported).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>>>>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>>>>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>>>>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>>>>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>>>>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>>>>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
>>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551 .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>>>>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>>>>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>>>>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>>>>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>>>>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>>>>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>>>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>>>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>>>>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gale
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production.
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[Peter Sampson]

Joel,

 

the bugs are logged on Bugzilla: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551

 

You will probably need to apply for a bug-wrangler account (Gale should be able to do this for you).

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Peter Sampson
Tel: [phone]
Mob: [phone]

From: Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)

Hello Gale, hello Steve,


Here is a small patch which implements the "disable metadata" check box in the way described by Steve on the User forum.
It seems to me that this method is convenient and very simple.

REMARK: the metadata disabling is dummy: this patch it is just for experimenting the Dialog interface!
The metadata is not really disabled. For this purpose i have to patch the Export commands and this would conflict with my other work on PCM metadata and ID3V2 metadata. I must wait that those other patches are committed before implementing the disabling.

Best regards,

Joel

P.S: where can i find a complete description of the bug 551 ?


----------------------------------------

> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:06:55 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>
>
> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
> | Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:56:42 +0200
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!
>>
>> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog,
>> because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before
>> exporting.
>
> Sorry this is turning into a long discussion. Perhaps we should
> move "where to implement a no metadata choice" to -quality if it
> needs much debate.
>
> I really doubt giving Metadata Editor a checkbox to disable
> metadata is a good idea until we decide how to fix bug 551.
>
> Fixing 551 has many more votes than "no metadata". Some people
> even go back to 1.2 because of 551. "No metadata" is not the
> most effective fix for the iPod Classic problem IMO.
>
> Due to bug 551 we've had to recommend in the Manual that
> people disable showing the Metadata Editor in Preferences.
> Because of that, people get the reasonable (but wrong) idea
> that they could disable metadata by turning off Metadata Editor
> in Preferences. Even the Manual says that hiding Metadata Editor
> makes Audacity not write metadata (I'll fix that).
>
> That's why I think the most intuitive approach may be to instead
> make hiding Metadata Editor (thereby killing metadata export)
> a choice at the Export/Export Selection/Export Multiple step.
> If you don't want metadata, why show the editor?
>
>
>> For batch chains, i agree with Gale that a command which only
>> applies to the next export is a little difficult to explain and it is
>> not intuitive (non markovian process!) ... although there is rarely
>> more than a single export command at the end of a chain...
>
> The use case I gave is not that uncommon so I think a no
> metadata choice for each format is more flexible and intuitive.
>
> I don't object to having a "No Metadata" command instead, as
> long as it was at the top of the "Choose command" list where it
> could be seen.
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:26:33 +0100
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>
>>> On 15 August 2013 22:16, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
>>>> | Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:00:31 +0200
>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>> in the last patch that i posted about AIFF tag fixing, the ID3 tag is
>>>>> at the end, but the other AIFF tags (NAME, AUTH, ANNO) are at the
>>>>> beginning of the file before the SSND data.
>>>>> This is the best solution for streaming.
>>>>> But, since this might be a problem for the iPod,i have also created a patch
>>>>> where all the tags are at the end (as for a WAV file).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are the two patches together, for experimenting.
>>>>
>>>> OK thanks. I'll try both.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Since the "Edit Metadata Tags" dialog pops up when exporting, the
>>>>> best place to install this option is to add a check box within this
>>>>> dialog box. I could easily do that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, though the problem remains that the choice to make "Edit
>>>> Metadata Tags" appear at export is a currently a Preference.
>>>>
>>>> So if anyone turns the metadata dialog off in Prefs, any "no metadata"
>>>> checkbox it contains will not be so easily found. If that checkbox is
>>>> off (as it would be by default) then if metadata is stored by the
>>>> editor it will still be exported even if the dialogue does not appear.
>>>>
>>>> So I still think we should move the Pref to show Metadata Editor to
>>>> the export dialogues to make it easier to access, and make that
>>>> control also decide if metadata is exported or not.
>>>>
>>>> But if you've any input how you would fix bug 551 please let us
>>>> know your ideas (probably a separate topic).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The problem is different for the "chain" exportation commands
>>>>> running in batch mode. Adding a check box and an extra parameter to
>>>>> every "export" command would be tedious. A simpler solution is to add
>>>>> a new command "No_Metadata" (?) that the user can install in the chain
>>>>> before an "ExportXXX" command. I could also do that.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for thinking about that.
>>>>
>>>> What if a user wanted metadata for one format and not for another
>>>> (e.g. metadata for an MP3/MP4 file but none for a WAV copy that
>>>> was meant for CD burning or for an app that didn't read WAV metadata)?
>>>>
>>>> It would be tedious to make two Chains for that case.
>>>
>>> "Tedious" is a lot better than "impossible",
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You could do it by making a "No Metadata" command in a Chain only
>>>> apply to formats above that command, but would it be intuitive?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:12 +0100
>>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> | From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> | Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:53:21 +0100
>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
>>>>>>>> On 13 August 2013 22:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> iTunes deletes the optional chunks if you create
>>>>>>>> an AIFF version of the file, so that is the apparent workaround for
>>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My guess is it would be too complicated to offer users a choice
>>>>>>>> of not exporting certain chunks (where the format exports more
>>>>>>>> than one chunk for a piece of metadata).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An option to disable all metadata need not be confusing, and would solve
>>>>>>> the problem of tracks not playing on the iPod Classic. All that would be
>>>>>>> required in the interface is a checkbox in the metadata editor. If it also
>>>>>>> greyed out the text fields in the editor then it would be blindingly
>>>>>>> obvious. This would also be useful in other cases where metadata is not
>>>>>>> wanted (it is all too easy for unwanted metadata to slip into multi-track
>>>>>>> projects if audio is imported).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed that an option to disable all metadata is not confusing.
>>>>>> It's an option we should have in any case IMO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "No metadata" is only a partial solution to the current Classic iPod
>>>>>> issue. Users won't be aware until they search online that metadata
>>>>>> is the reason for the iPod problem, so it only fixes the issue after
>>>>>> it happens. It's still a nuisance for those who want to add the
>>>>>> metadata in Audacity rather than elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorting out how to handle "no metadata" might be better done in
>>>>>> the context of fixing bug 551:
>>>>>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=551.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That might mean a "no metadata" checkbox would be better in
>>>>>> the export dialogues as a control to show Metadata Editor
>>>>>> (instead of having a Preference to do that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll try Joel's patch(es) when I can (thanks to him). As far as I
>>>>>> know there is no problem with ID3 at the end of AIFF files.
>>>>>> iTunes leaves ID3 at the end after rewriting the file, so
>>>>>> probably it's best not to move ID3 to the top.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes I guess to limit a regression risk we could kill the optional chunks
>>>>>>>> only when encoding on Mac OS X.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I noticed in Joel's patch that moves the LIST chunk to the end
>>>>>>>> and adds "PAD ", the optional chunks now appear at the bottom
>>>>>>>> of the file as well as at the top.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also that patch writes two SSND chunks if there is a LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>> I think that might be a problem, so I'll retest with the patch version
>>>>>>>> that does not duplicate the LIST chunk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gale
>
>
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[Gale]

| From Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
| Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:55:24 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)

> On 16 August 2013 17:06, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > | From Joel Bouchat <[hidden email]>
> > | Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:56:42 +0200
> > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] Metadata in RIFF files (was: Back to ID3v2 metadata in WAV files)
> >> I can implement this check box for disabling the metadata anywhere: just tell me!
> >>
> >> As a USER of Audacity, my own preference is to implement it in the Metadata Edition dialog,
> >> because i did not disable the dialog pop up and i always have a look to the metadata before
> >> exporting.
> >
> > Sorry this is turning into a long discussion. Perhaps we should
> > move "where to implement a no metadata choice" to -quality if it
> > needs much debate.
>
> That might have been a good idea before raising more contentious issues.
>
> > I really doubt giving Metadata Editor a checkbox to disable
> > metadata is a good idea until we decide how to fix bug 551.
> >
> > Fixing 551 has many more votes than "no metadata".
>
> Sorry Gale but that is totally irrelevant. We don't vote on bugs. Bugs
> are things that happen by accident and require fixing. Votes don't
> come into it.

Steve, the point I am making and obviously failing to get across is that
the best way to provide "no metadata" export is IMO inherently
interlinked with bug 551.

The "No Metadata" checkbox proposed in Metadata Editor seems to me
to presuppose the best way to fix the user experience around 551
involves keeping the current "Show Metadata Editor" Preference.
I don't think that is the current consensus. It might become so, but
we would need to discuss it (or someone implements their own
preferred solution to it).      

Doesn't fixing "no metadata export" now by just adding a checkbox
to Metadata Editor circumscribe the choices of how to fix 551?  

> > Due to bug 551 we've had to recommend in the Manual that
> > people disable showing the Metadata Editor in Preferences.
> > Because of that, people get the reasonable (but wrong) idea
> > that they could disable metadata by turning off Metadata Editor
> > in Preferences. Even the Manual says that hiding Metadata Editor
> > makes Audacity not write metadata (I'll fix that).
> >
> > That's why I think the most intuitive approach may be to instead
> > make hiding Metadata Editor (thereby killing metadata export)
> > a choice at the Export/Export Selection/Export Multiple step.
> > If you don't want metadata, why show the editor?
>
> Basing a design decision on a bug workaround is wrong and I strongly
> oppose doing so.

I agree, but I don't think I am doing that. Bug 551 is an enhancement
request, "design decision" bug.  




Gale

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