New preference for default record being to new track.

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New preference for default record being to new track.

Gale
Administrator
As per https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/9d501f6 .

Thanks for this James. A reasonable "amelioration" for the change.
I think. Would you have put this in Recording Preferences if
there had been less there already? I'm guessing that is the first
place users would look rather than Tracks Behaviors, despite it
is a good fit there, logically speaking. It's important this preference
is easily found, to reduce support requests.

If we do want this option in Recording Preferences, a possible
solution may be to move "Naming newly recorded tracks" from
"Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
option for the default track name. Steve might object, of course.

I see in Keyboard Preferences that if the default Append recording is
set in Tracks Behaviors, then you change the shortcut for "Record
New Track" and uncheck default Append recording, that shortcut
is renamed as the new secondary action of "Append Record". This
seems OK if it is documented well.

I'm glad that the Record button tooltip updates the primary and
secondary record action when changing the new preference, but
can we show the currently assigned shortcuts for those actions
in the tooltip, like we do for other tooltips?



Gale

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Cliff Scott
Regarding where the preference is placed, I've used software where, like this, it could reasonably fit in more than one place. What I saw done was to put it in multiple preference panes so the user could easily find it. We don't all classify things the same way in our minds as evidenced by the discussions here. Just a suggestion.

Cliff

> On May 1, 2017, at 1:40 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As per https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/9d501f6 .
>
> Thanks for this James. A reasonable "amelioration" for the change.
> I think. Would you have put this in Recording Preferences if
> there had been less there already? I'm guessing that is the first
> place users would look rather than Tracks Behaviors, despite it
> is a good fit there, logically speaking. It's important this preference
> is easily found, to reduce support requests.
>
> If we do want this option in Recording Preferences, a possible
> solution may be to move "Naming newly recorded tracks" from
> "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
> option for the default track name. Steve might object, of course.
>
> I see in Keyboard Preferences that if the default Append recording is
> set in Tracks Behaviors, then you change the shortcut for "Record
> New Track" and uncheck default Append recording, that shortcut
> is renamed as the new secondary action of "Append Record". This
> seems OK if it is documented well.
>
> I'm glad that the Record button tooltip updates the primary and
> secondary record action when changing the new preference, but
> can we show the currently assigned shortcuts for those actions
> in the tooltip, like we do for other tooltips?
>
>
>
> Gale
>
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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 5/1/2017 7:40 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> As per https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/9d501f6 .
>
> Thanks for this James. A reasonable "amelioration" for the change.
Humph.
> I think. Would you have put this in Recording Preferences if
> there had been less there already?
Yes.

> I'm guessing that is the first place users would look rather than Tracks Behaviors, despite it is a good fit there, logically speaking. It's important this preference
> is easily found, to reduce support requests.
>
> If we do want this option in Recording Preferences, a possible
> solution may be to move "Naming newly recorded tracks" from
> "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
> option for the default track name. Steve might object, of course.
I think that this option is for the opposite of noobs.  The opposite of
noobs will (a) know about preferences and (b) have good chances of
finding it.    I don't think it is a problem, for this item which is of
relatively low utility.

If Steve or another developer want to rearrange things later on, I am
fine with that.

> I see in Keyboard Preferences that if the default Append recording is
> set in Tracks Behaviors, then you change the shortcut for "Record
> New Track" and uncheck default Append recording, that shortcut
> is renamed as the new secondary action of "Append Record". This
> seems OK if it is documented well.
You should document it with the level of information you think it
needs.  I'd have expected an entry on the relevant preferences page of
the manual would be plenty.

I'm disappointed that you think the change in the menu item is only
'OK'.  I thought you, with your attention to detail, would positively
like that attention to detail, as the meaning of both R and Shift-R do
change with this preference.  "Record-to-same-track if Record is
'Record-to-new-track' and vice versa" would make for rather too long a
menu item, I thought.  What would you have preferred instead?

> I'm glad that the Record button tooltip updates the primary and
> secondary record action when changing the new preference, but
> can we show the currently assigned shortcuts for those actions
> in the tooltip, like we do for other tooltips?

Done.
https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/cd69bf074f16387565d7f6836037e5ff06bc1de5

Thanks for asking for that.  I had not appreciated why there were two
push_backs before, and that had been a bit of a puzzle for me.

I added a comment in the code for future visitors.


--James.


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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2
One issue:  the tooltip for the Shift-modified action of the Record button
does bot show the Shiht+R shortcut.

One comment:  If we are going to continue to provide this option, then I
think that the wording in the Tracks prefs pane does not clearlty indicate
to the user that by unchecking this the they will get record-below, "Record
New Track", as their default - so the GUI lacks a little clarity here.
But as James says this is "item which is of relatively low utility" - those that
really want to finfd it will find it, set it and then forget about it.
So on the whole I am happy with the current wording emphasising the 2.2.0
default behavior.

Do I think this is really necessary - probably not, but no real harm is done
except maybe yet another increase in the complexity of the GUI settings in
preferences - giving the user even more stuff to wrestle with and think about.
So hey let it stand if needs be.

It may of course help to reduce support calls and complaints from those users
who absolutely insist of remaining with "the old ways".

James wrote:
>I'd have expected an entry on the relevant preferences page of
>the manual would be plenty.

I am minded to agree with James on this - I really do not want to overclutter
the Recording pages in the Manual with full descriptions of the two alternative
behavior settings.  I too think that docucumenting this on the relevant prefs
page will be sufficient.

Peter.

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

James Crook
On 5/1/2017 11:32 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
*One issue: * the tooltip for the Shift-modified action of the Record
button does bot show the Shiht+R shortcut.

It does now :-) ....  so check the next nightly to confirm.

*One comment: * If we are going to continue to provide this option, then I
think that the wording in the Tracks prefs pane does not clearlty indicate
to the user that by unchecking this the they will get record-below, "Record
New Track", as their default - so the GUI lacks a little clarity here.
But as James says this is "item which is of relatively low utility" - those
that really want to finfd it will find it, set it and then forget about it.
So on the whole I am happy with the current wording emphasising the 2.2.0
default behavior.
If you and Gale agree new wording for the preference, it's fine to change that string.


Do I think this is really necessary - probably not, but no real harm is
done
except maybe yet another increase in the complexity of the GUI settings in
preferences - giving the user even more stuff to wrestle with and think
about.
So hey let it stand if needs be.

It may of course help to reduce support calls and complaints from those
users
who absolutely insist of remaining with "the old ways".

James wrote:
I'd have expected an entry on the relevant preferences page of
the manual would be plenty.
I am minded to agree with James on this - I really do not want to
overclutter
the Recording pages in the Manual with full descriptions of the two
alternative
behavior settings.  I too think that docucumenting this on the relevant
prefs
page will be sufficient.

Peter.



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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 1 May 2017 at 20:28, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 5/1/2017 7:40 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> As per https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/9d501f6 .
>>
>> Thanks for this James. A reasonable "amelioration" for the change.
> Humph.

If it makes you feel better, I was pleasantly surprised you added the
preference promptly, without me feeling the need to reiterate that
some switching mechanism was needed.  :=)

Did you notice how pleased I was to see MIDI playback turned on?
Occasionally I can still get enthused if I see all gain and little pain.
:=)

>> I think. Would you have put this in Recording Preferences if
>> there had been less there already?
> Yes.
>
>> I'm guessing that is the first place users would look rather than Tracks Behaviors, despite it is a good fit there, logically speaking. It's important this preference
>> is easily found, to reduce support requests.
>>
>> If we do want this option in Recording Preferences, a possible
>> solution may be to move "Naming newly recorded tracks" from
>> "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
>> option for the default track name. Steve might object, of course.
> I think that this option is for the opposite of noobs.

So you keep saying, and you have read a few times why I have a
somewhat different take on that. If you need me to explain it again
you could contact me off list.


> The opposite of noobs will (a) know about preferences and (b) have
> good chances of finding it.    I don't think it is a problem, for this item
> which is of relatively low utility.

Not of low utility IMO. Think "multi-track goodness".

I think the existing novices from 2.1.3 who got used to SHIFT + R
*will* have a few seconds of head scratching when that gives them a
a new track. I agree on balance it probably is best to force the change
on everyone by default, but that decision requires I think an easily
found preference (or possibly my rejected multi-record button idea).


> If Steve or another developer want to rearrange things later on, I am
> fine with that.

Clearly we would have to get consensus to change, but you've stated
you would have used Recording Preferences as first choice, and so
would I, so it depends on the negatives of taking something out of
Recording Preferences.

We've discussed in the past moving Audio to buffer from Recording
Prefs into Devices Prefs and making it per device, given it affects
playback too. But I don't expect that will be done for 2.2.0 even if
it gains a consensus.


>> I see in Keyboard Preferences that if the default Append recording is
>> set in Tracks Behaviors, then you change the shortcut for "Record
>> New Track" and uncheck default Append recording, that shortcut
>> is renamed as the new secondary action of "Append Record". This
>> seems OK if it is documented well.
> You should document it with the level of information you think it
> needs.  I'd have expected an entry on the relevant preferences page of
> the manual would be plenty.

I would guess it needs a brief mention in Commands too.


> I'm disappointed that you think the change in the menu item is only
> 'OK'.  I thought you, with your attention to detail, would positively
> like that attention to detail, as the meaning of both R and Shift-R do
> change with this preference.

As you will recall I liked the idea of "switching the shortcuts over",
so in fact I would be disappointed if both R and Shift + R did not
change meaning. :=)

As you know I see more negative than you in changing the meaning
of such a long-established behaviour. I think a lot of the problem
was actually a failure to find our Pause button when users turned
the tape or record over. I think (with the "amelioration" we now have)
that we could even have delayed changing the default until we have
punch in, when default same track record has more benefit. But
decision made, regardless.

My comment was thus a small concern over how to explain about
Keyboard Preferences if you change binding for the secondary record
action. If you change the "Append-Record" Preference then change
the binding in the same Preferences session, the binding then has a
different name when you look in Transport Menu or Record button
tooltip.


> "Record-to-same-track if Record is 'Record-to-new-track' and vice
> versa" would make for rather too long a menu item, I thought.

I assume the menu item determines the name of the item in Keyboard
Preferences (without making code changes). If so there may not be
much we can do except point out what happens in the docs.


>  What would you have preferred instead?

Perhaps if the name presented in Keyboard Prefs could have been different,
I might have called the two "Alternative Record  (Record New Track)" and
"Alternative Record (Append Record)"  Of course even that only partly helps
if you change binding in the same Preferences session.


Peter wrote:
> If we are going to continue to provide this option, then I think that the
> wording in the Tracks prefs pane does not clearlty indicate to the user
> that by unchecking this the they will get record-below, "Record New
> Track", as their default - so the GUI lacks a little clarity here.

I thought so a little too, but could not think of anything much better.
I think the default state of the preference should be on and that it's
right if we have a checkbox that the wording emphasises the change
of behaviour.

Of course if we want to take the space for a pair of radio buttons in a
Default Record Action" box,  it can be clearer e.g.:

* "Append Record to same track or selected tracks"
* "Record at the selection into new track"

Will we actually need three choices, so perhaps a dropdown, when we
have Punch-in?

For right now, I'm more concerned that this would arguably have been
more effective in Recording Preferences, if possible.


Peter wrote:
> Those that really want to finfd it will find it, set it and then forget about it.

I disagree everyone will necessarily want to set it and forget it. It could be
convenient to toggle this preference if you switch from a set of projects
recording LPs to a set of projects doing overdubs.



Gale


>> I'm glad that the Record button tooltip updates the primary and
>> secondary record action when changing the new preference, but
>> can we show the currently assigned shortcuts for those actions
>> in the tooltip, like we do for other tooltips?
>
> Done.
> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/cd69bf074f16387565d7f6836037e5ff06bc1de5
>
> Thanks for asking for that.  I had not appreciated why there were two
> push_backs before, and that had been a bit of a puzzle for me.

> I added a comment in the code for future visitors.

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Stevethefiddle


On 2 May 2017 at 04:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1 May 2017 at 20:28, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 5/1/2017 7:40 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> As per https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/9d501f6 .
>>>
>>> Thanks for this James. A reasonable "amelioration" for the change.
>> Humph.
>
> If it makes you feel better, I was pleasantly surprised you added the
> preference promptly, without me feeling the need to reiterate that
> some switching mechanism was needed.  :=)
>
> Did you notice how pleased I was to see MIDI playback turned on?
> Occasionally I can still get enthused if I see all gain and little pain.
> :=)
>
>>> I think. Would you have put this in Recording Preferences if
>>> there had been less there already?
>> Yes.

The recording preferences is currently the second longest preference page after Tracks > Spectrogram.
On the Spectrograms page, the bottom item is mostly hidden, and requires resizing the page to see / set it (see attached image).




>>
>>> I'm guessing that is the first place users would look rather than Tracks Behaviors, despite it is a good fit there, logically speaking. It's important this preference
>>> is easily found, to reduce support requests.
>>>
>>> If we do want this option in Recording Preferences, a possible
>>> solution may be to move "Naming newly recorded tracks" from
>>> "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
>>> option for the default track name. Steve might object, of course.
>> I think that this option is for the opposite of noobs.
>
> So you keep saying, and you have read a few times why I have a
> somewhat different take on that. If you need me to explain it again
> you could contact me off list.
>
>
>> The opposite of noobs will (a) know about preferences and (b) have
>> good chances of finding it.    I don't think it is a problem, for this item
>> which is of relatively low utility.
>
> Not of low utility IMO. Think "multi-track goodness".

+1 for "multi-track goodness".

"Multi-track" is one of the things that separates Audacity from the crowd of other audio editors, and has always been a major feature of Audacity.

>
> I think the existing novices from 2.1.3 who got used to SHIFT + R
> *will* have a few seconds of head scratching when that gives them a
> a new track. I agree on balance it probably is best to force the change
> on everyone by default, but that decision requires I think an easily
> found preference (or possibly my rejected multi-record button idea).
>
>
>> If Steve or another developer want to rearrange things later on, I am
>> fine with that.
>
> Clearly we would have to get consensus to change, but you've stated
> you would have used Recording Preferences as first choice, and so
> would I, so it depends on the negatives of taking something out of
> Recording Preferences.

I expected to find the preference in the Recording section. When I didn't find it there, I looked at the code to find where it was 'hidden'.

>
> We've discussed in the past moving Audio to buffer from Recording
> Prefs into Devices Prefs and making it per device, given it affects
> playback too. But I don't expect that will be done for 2.2.0 even if
> it gains a consensus.

We could move the buffer settings into Device preferences now, even if we don't yet have per-device settings. (Per device settings would be very nice).

>
>
>>> I see in Keyboard Preferences that if the default Append recording is
>>> set in Tracks Behaviors, then you change the shortcut for "Record
>>> New Track" and uncheck default Append recording, that shortcut
>>> is renamed as the new secondary action of "Append Record". This
>>> seems OK if it is documented well.
>> You should document it with the level of information you think it
>> needs.  I'd have expected an entry on the relevant preferences page of
>> the manual would be plenty.
>
> I would guess it needs a brief mention in Commands too.
>
>
>> I'm disappointed that you think the change in the menu item is only
>> 'OK'.  I thought you, with your attention to detail, would positively
>> like that attention to detail, as the meaning of both R and Shift-R do
>> change with this preference.
>
> As you will recall I liked the idea of "switching the shortcuts over",
> so in fact I would be disappointed if both R and Shift + R did not
> change meaning. :=)
>
> As you know I see more negative than you in changing the meaning
> of such a long-established behaviour. I think a lot of the problem
> was actually a failure to find our Pause button when users turned
> the tape or record over. I think (with the "amelioration" we now have)
> that we could even have delayed changing the default until we have
> punch in, when default same track record has more benefit. But
> decision made, regardless.
>
> My comment was thus a small concern over how to explain about
> Keyboard Preferences if you change binding for the secondary record
> action. If you change the "Append-Record" Preference then change
> the binding in the same Preferences session, the binding then has a
> different name when you look in Transport Menu or Record button
> tooltip.
>
>
>> "Record-to-same-track if Record is 'Record-to-new-track' and vice
>> versa" would make for rather too long a menu item, I thought.
>
> I assume the menu item determines the name of the item in Keyboard
> Preferences (without making code changes). If so there may not be
> much we can do except point out what happens in the docs.
>
>
>>  What would you have preferred instead?
>
> Perhaps if the name presented in Keyboard Prefs could have been different,
> I might have called the two "Alternative Record  (Record New Track)" and
> "Alternative Record (Append Record)"  Of course even that only partly helps
> if you change binding in the same Preferences session.
>
>
> Peter wrote:
>> If we are going to continue to provide this option, then I think that the
>> wording in the Tracks prefs pane does not clearlty indicate to the user
>> that by unchecking this the they will get record-below, "Record New
>> Track", as their default - so the GUI lacks a little clarity here.
>
> I thought so a little too, but could not think of anything much better.
> I think the default state of the preference should be on and that it's
> right if we have a checkbox that the wording emphasises the change
> of behaviour.
>
> Of course if we want to take the space for a pair of radio buttons in a
> Default Record Action" box,  it can be clearer e.g.:
>
> * "Append Record to same track or selected tracks"
> * "Record at the selection into new track"
>
> Will we actually need three choices, so perhaps a dropdown, when we
> have Punch-in?

I don't think we should be guessing what will be required for "punch in" at this stage - there are several different ways that it could be tackled, and each is likely to have very different  UI requirements.

>
> For right now, I'm more concerned that this would arguably have been
> more effective in Recording Preferences, if possible.

+1

>
>
> Peter wrote:
>> Those that really want to finfd it will find it, set it and then forget about it.
>
> I disagree everyone will necessarily want to set it and forget it. It could be
> convenient to toggle this preference if you switch from a set of projects
> recording LPs to a set of projects doing overdubs.

I expect it to be "set it and forget it" for the vast majority of users, if for no other reason than "muscle memory".

Steve

>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>>> I'm glad that the Record button tooltip updates the primary and
>>> secondary record action when changing the new preference, but
>>> can we show the currently assigned shortcuts for those actions
>>> in the tooltip, like we do for other tooltips?
>>
>> Done.
>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/cd69bf074f16387565d7f6836037e5ff06bc1de5
>>
>> Thanks for asking for that.  I had not appreciated why there were two
>> push_backs before, and that had been a bit of a puzzle for me.
>
>> I added a comment in the code for future visitors.
>
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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2
I too strongly believe in Audacity's "multi-track goodness" ...

But neither James's original 2.2.0/DA change of the default recording mode
to record-beside nor yesterday's addition of an option/pref setting to switch
back to the previous default of record-below.

Multi-tracking has always been there and it remains there - it's not been taken
away (it's not a regression).

All that's happened is that James has changed the GUI slightly and in a way that
favours novice and occasional users (unlike previously where such users often
got confused as to why they were getting multiple tracks and then had to work
out how to deal with them).

The more advanced users who want now mult-tracking can still do that - all they
need to do is remeber to use the Shift key to modify their record (or reset to
"the old ways").  For Jiminy Cricket's sake the Shift key is not hard to use - we
all use it all the time, along with other modifier keys, in our daily use of Audacity
an other apps like Word, Excel etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having read Steve's and Gale's comments I am strongly minded to agree that for
this setting to be easily found (and "discoverability" is an Audacity watch-word)
then it does really need to be in the Recording section of preferences and not in
the Tracks section.

And yes the Recording pane is alrady a little overlong - but this new pref really does
there. There could be a number of options:

a) a simple split of Recording Prefs into a pane and sub-pane as Steve has recently
done with Tracks/Tracks Behaviors.  Either the latency or the naming could be split off

b) do as Gale suggested in his initial post in this thread and to move "Naming newly
recorded tracks" from "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
option for the default track name.

c) we could move the Latency section from Recording to Devices, thogh this is suboptimal.

I tend to favour a) as then existing users woukd have a clearer idea of where to continue to
look.  But I aso favour b) as it saves extending the prefs menu yet further.

All in all I would choose b) as I'm buying Gale's argument that Track Naming is at least as
much to do with Tracks as it is with recording (the clue is in the nomenclature).


If we are going to make this change (along with all the other GUI changes) then I think it
is important that we get this right the first time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
a) the Shift-modified button display,
b) the Transport commands,
c) the shortcuts,

so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.

Peter.



On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 2 May 2017 at 04:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1 May 2017 at 20:28, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 5/1/2017 7:40 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> As per https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/9d501f6 .
>>>
>>> Thanks for this James. A reasonable "amelioration" for the change.
>> Humph.
>
> If it makes you feel better, I was pleasantly surprised you added the
> preference promptly, without me feeling the need to reiterate that
> some switching mechanism was needed.  :=)
>
> Did you notice how pleased I was to see MIDI playback turned on?
> Occasionally I can still get enthused if I see all gain and little pain.
> :=)
>
>>> I think. Would you have put this in Recording Preferences if
>>> there had been less there already?
>> Yes.

The recording preferences is currently the second longest preference page after Tracks > Spectrogram.
On the Spectrograms page, the bottom item is mostly hidden, and requires resizing the page to see / set it (see attached image).




>>
>>> I'm guessing that is the first place users would look rather than Tracks Behaviors, despite it is a good fit there, logically speaking. It's important this preference
>>> is easily found, to reduce support requests.
>>>
>>> If we do want this option in Recording Preferences, a possible
>>> solution may be to move "Naming newly recorded tracks" from
>>> "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
>>> option for the default track name. Steve might object, of course.
>> I think that this option is for the opposite of noobs.
>
> So you keep saying, and you have read a few times why I have a
> somewhat different take on that. If you need me to explain it again
> you could contact me off list.
>
>
>> The opposite of noobs will (a) know about preferences and (b) have
>> good chances of finding it.    I don't think it is a problem, for this item
>> which is of relatively low utility.
>
> Not of low utility IMO. Think "multi-track goodness".

+1 for "multi-track goodness".

"Multi-track" is one of the things that separates Audacity from the crowd of other audio editors, and has always been a major feature of Audacity.

>
> I think the existing novices from 2.1.3 who got used to SHIFT + R
> *will* have a few seconds of head scratching when that gives them a
> a new track. I agree on balance it probably is best to force the change
> on everyone by default, but that decision requires I think an easily
> found preference (or possibly my rejected multi-record button idea).
>
>
>> If Steve or another developer want to rearrange things later on, I am
>> fine with that.
>
> Clearly we would have to get consensus to change, but you've stated
> you would have used Recording Preferences as first choice, and so
> would I, so it depends on the negatives of taking something out of
> Recording Preferences.

I expected to find the preference in the Recording section. When I didn't find it there, I looked at the code to find where it was 'hidden'.

>
> We've discussed in the past moving Audio to buffer from Recording
> Prefs into Devices Prefs and making it per device, given it affects
> playback too. But I don't expect that will be done for 2.2.0 even if
> it gains a consensus.

We could move the buffer settings into Device preferences now, even if we don't yet have per-device settings. (Per device settings would be very nice).


>
>
>>> I see in Keyboard Preferences that if the default Append recording is
>>> set in Tracks Behaviors, then you change the shortcut for "Record
>>> New Track" and uncheck default Append recording, that shortcut
>>> is renamed as the new secondary action of "Append Record". This
>>> seems OK if it is documented well.
>> You should document it with the level of information you think it
>> needs.  I'd have expected an entry on the relevant preferences page of
>> the manual would be plenty.
>
> I would guess it needs a brief mention in Commands too.
>
>
>> I'm disappointed that you think the change in the menu item is only
>> 'OK'.  I thought you, with your attention to detail, would positively
>> like that attention to detail, as the meaning of both R and Shift-R do
>> change with this preference.
>
> As you will recall I liked the idea of "switching the shortcuts over",
> so in fact I would be disappointed if both R and Shift + R did not
> change meaning. :=)
>
> As you know I see more negative than you in changing the meaning
> of such a long-established behaviour. I think a lot of the problem
> was actually a failure to find our Pause button when users turned
> the tape or record over. I think (with the "amelioration" we now have)
> that we could even have delayed changing the default until we have
> punch in, when default same track record has more benefit. But
> decision made, regardless.
>
> My comment was thus a small concern over how to explain about
> Keyboard Preferences if you change binding for the secondary record
> action. If you change the "Append-Record" Preference then change
> the binding in the same Preferences session, the binding then has a
> different name when you look in Transport Menu or Record button
> tooltip.
>
>
>> "Record-to-same-track if Record is 'Record-to-new-track' and vice
>> versa" would make for rather too long a menu item, I thought.
>
> I assume the menu item determines the name of the item in Keyboard
> Preferences (without making code changes). If so there may not be
> much we can do except point out what happens in the docs.
>
>
>>  What would you have preferred instead?
>
> Perhaps if the name presented in Keyboard Prefs could have been different,
> I might have called the two "Alternative Record  (Record New Track)" and
> "Alternative Record (Append Record)"  Of course even that only partly helps
> if you change binding in the same Preferences session.
>
>
> Peter wrote:
>> If we are going to continue to provide this option, then I think that the
>> wording in the Tracks prefs pane does not clearlty indicate to the user
>> that by unchecking this the they will get record-below, "Record New
>> Track", as their default - so the GUI lacks a little clarity here.
>
> I thought so a little too, but could not think of anything much better.
> I think the default state of the preference should be on and that it's
> right if we have a checkbox that the wording emphasises the change
> of behaviour.
>
> Of course if we want to take the space for a pair of radio buttons in a
> Default Record Action" box,  it can be clearer e.g.:
>
> * "Append Record to same track or selected tracks"
> * "Record at the selection into new track"
>
> Will we actually need three choices, so perhaps a dropdown, when we
> have Punch-in?

I don't think we should be guessing what will be required for "punch in" at this stage - there are several different ways that it could be tackled, and each is likely to have very different  UI requirements.

>
> For right now, I'm more concerned that this would arguably have been
> more effective in Recording Preferences, if possible.

+1

>
>
> Peter wrote:
>> Those that really want to finfd it will find it, set it and then forget about it.
>
> I disagree everyone will necessarily want to set it and forget it. It could be
> convenient to toggle this preference if you switch from a set of projects
> recording LPs to a set of projects doing overdubs.

I expect it to be "set it and forget it" for the vast majority of users, if for no other reason than "muscle memory".

Steve


>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>>> I'm glad that the Record button tooltip updates the primary and
>>> secondary record action when changing the new preference, but
>>> can we show the currently assigned shortcuts for those actions
>>> in the tooltip, like we do for other tooltips?
>>
>> Done.
>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/cd69bf074f16387565d7f6836037e5ff06bc1de5
>>
>> Thanks for asking for that.  I had not appreciated why there were two
>> push_backs before, and that had been a bit of a puzzle for me.
>
>> I added a comment in the code for future visitors.
>
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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2
To which add option:

d) James parallel thread suggestion for reorganizing the layout of the
Recording prefs pane

Peter.

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2


On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I too strongly believe in Audacity's "multi-track goodness" ...

But neither James's original 2.2.0/DA change of the default recording mode
to record-beside nor yesterday's addition of an option/pref setting to switch
back to the previous default of record-below.

Multi-tracking has always been there and it remains there - it's not been taken
away (it's not a regression).

All that's happened is that James has changed the GUI slightly and in a way that
favours novice and occasional users (unlike previously where such users often
got confused as to why they were getting multiple tracks and then had to work
out how to deal with them).

The more advanced users who want now mult-tracking can still do that - all they
need to do is remeber to use the Shift key to modify their record (or reset to
"the old ways").  For Jiminy Cricket's sake the Shift key is not hard to use - we
all use it all the time, along with other modifier keys, in our daily use of Audacity
an other apps like Word, Excel etc.

I don't think this is "an issue".
We seem to have at least one person strongly in favour of retaining 'the old way' as an option, and no-one strongly against. At present, I'm mildly in favour, though I suspect that I will be accustomed to 'the new way'. The main benefit imo is that it provides an easy answer for users that fervently prefer the old way.
 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having read Steve's and Gale's comments I am strongly minded to agree that for
this setting to be easily found (and "discoverability" is an Audacity watch-word)
then it does really need to be in the Recording section of preferences and not in
the Tracks section.

And yes the Recording pane is alrady a little overlong - but this new pref really does
there. There could be a number of options:

a) a simple split of Recording Prefs into a pane and sub-pane as Steve has recently
done with Tracks/Tracks Behaviors.  Either the latency or the naming could be split off

b) do as Gale suggested in his initial post in this thread and to move "Naming newly
recorded tracks" from "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
option for the default track name.

I'm not keen on (b) as these options are specifically concerned with recording, so imo belong in the Recording preferences.
The other track naming option is not about recording, but is the general default for "tracks", so imo belongs in the Tracks preferences.
 

c) we could move the Latency section from Recording to Devices, thogh this is suboptimal.

+1
Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.

I would hope that eventually we will have "per device" settings (very useful for users that sometimes use a USB device and sometimes the internal sound card), at which time these settings will very clearly belong in the Devices preferences rather than the Recording prefs.

Steve
 

I tend to favour a) as then existing users woukd have a clearer idea of where to continue to
look.  But I aso favour b) as it saves extending the prefs menu yet further.

All in all I would choose b) as I'm buying Gale's argument that Track Naming is at least as
much to do with Tracks as it is with recording (the clue is in the nomenclature).


If we are going to make this change (along with all the other GUI changes) then I think it
is important that we get this right the first time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
a) the Shift-modified button display,
b) the Transport commands,
c) the shortcuts,

so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.

Peter.



On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 2 May 2017 at 04:59, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1 May 2017 at 20:28, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 5/1/2017 7:40 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> As per https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/9d501f6 .
>>>
>>> Thanks for this James. A reasonable "amelioration" for the change.
>> Humph.
>
> If it makes you feel better, I was pleasantly surprised you added the
> preference promptly, without me feeling the need to reiterate that
> some switching mechanism was needed.  :=)
>
> Did you notice how pleased I was to see MIDI playback turned on?
> Occasionally I can still get enthused if I see all gain and little pain.
> :=)
>
>>> I think. Would you have put this in Recording Preferences if
>>> there had been less there already?
>> Yes.

The recording preferences is currently the second longest preference page after Tracks > Spectrogram.
On the Spectrograms page, the bottom item is mostly hidden, and requires resizing the page to see / set it (see attached image).




>>
>>> I'm guessing that is the first place users would look rather than Tracks Behaviors, despite it is a good fit there, logically speaking. It's important this preference
>>> is easily found, to reduce support requests.
>>>
>>> If we do want this option in Recording Preferences, a possible
>>> solution may be to move "Naming newly recorded tracks" from
>>> "Recording" preferences to "Tracks" which already has a name
>>> option for the default track name. Steve might object, of course.
>> I think that this option is for the opposite of noobs.
>
> So you keep saying, and you have read a few times why I have a
> somewhat different take on that. If you need me to explain it again
> you could contact me off list.
>
>
>> The opposite of noobs will (a) know about preferences and (b) have
>> good chances of finding it.    I don't think it is a problem, for this item
>> which is of relatively low utility.
>
> Not of low utility IMO. Think "multi-track goodness".

+1 for "multi-track goodness".

"Multi-track" is one of the things that separates Audacity from the crowd of other audio editors, and has always been a major feature of Audacity.

>
> I think the existing novices from 2.1.3 who got used to SHIFT + R
> *will* have a few seconds of head scratching when that gives them a
> a new track. I agree on balance it probably is best to force the change
> on everyone by default, but that decision requires I think an easily
> found preference (or possibly my rejected multi-record button idea).
>
>
>> If Steve or another developer want to rearrange things later on, I am
>> fine with that.
>
> Clearly we would have to get consensus to change, but you've stated
> you would have used Recording Preferences as first choice, and so
> would I, so it depends on the negatives of taking something out of
> Recording Preferences.

I expected to find the preference in the Recording section. When I didn't find it there, I looked at the code to find where it was 'hidden'.

>
> We've discussed in the past moving Audio to buffer from Recording
> Prefs into Devices Prefs and making it per device, given it affects
> playback too. But I don't expect that will be done for 2.2.0 even if
> it gains a consensus.

We could move the buffer settings into Device preferences now, even if we don't yet have per-device settings. (Per device settings would be very nice).


>
>
>>> I see in Keyboard Preferences that if the default Append recording is
>>> set in Tracks Behaviors, then you change the shortcut for "Record
>>> New Track" and uncheck default Append recording, that shortcut
>>> is renamed as the new secondary action of "Append Record". This
>>> seems OK if it is documented well.
>> You should document it with the level of information you think it
>> needs.  I'd have expected an entry on the relevant preferences page of
>> the manual would be plenty.
>
> I would guess it needs a brief mention in Commands too.
>
>
>> I'm disappointed that you think the change in the menu item is only
>> 'OK'.  I thought you, with your attention to detail, would positively
>> like that attention to detail, as the meaning of both R and Shift-R do
>> change with this preference.
>
> As you will recall I liked the idea of "switching the shortcuts over",
> so in fact I would be disappointed if both R and Shift + R did not
> change meaning. :=)
>
> As you know I see more negative than you in changing the meaning
> of such a long-established behaviour. I think a lot of the problem
> was actually a failure to find our Pause button when users turned
> the tape or record over. I think (with the "amelioration" we now have)
> that we could even have delayed changing the default until we have
> punch in, when default same track record has more benefit. But
> decision made, regardless.
>
> My comment was thus a small concern over how to explain about
> Keyboard Preferences if you change binding for the secondary record
> action. If you change the "Append-Record" Preference then change
> the binding in the same Preferences session, the binding then has a
> different name when you look in Transport Menu or Record button
> tooltip.
>
>
>> "Record-to-same-track if Record is 'Record-to-new-track' and vice
>> versa" would make for rather too long a menu item, I thought.
>
> I assume the menu item determines the name of the item in Keyboard
> Preferences (without making code changes). If so there may not be
> much we can do except point out what happens in the docs.
>
>
>>  What would you have preferred instead?
>
> Perhaps if the name presented in Keyboard Prefs could have been different,
> I might have called the two "Alternative Record  (Record New Track)" and
> "Alternative Record (Append Record)"  Of course even that only partly helps
> if you change binding in the same Preferences session.
>
>
> Peter wrote:
>> If we are going to continue to provide this option, then I think that the
>> wording in the Tracks prefs pane does not clearlty indicate to the user
>> that by unchecking this the they will get record-below, "Record New
>> Track", as their default - so the GUI lacks a little clarity here.
>
> I thought so a little too, but could not think of anything much better.
> I think the default state of the preference should be on and that it's
> right if we have a checkbox that the wording emphasises the change
> of behaviour.
>
> Of course if we want to take the space for a pair of radio buttons in a
> Default Record Action" box,  it can be clearer e.g.:
>
> * "Append Record to same track or selected tracks"
> * "Record at the selection into new track"
>
> Will we actually need three choices, so perhaps a dropdown, when we
> have Punch-in?

I don't think we should be guessing what will be required for "punch in" at this stage - there are several different ways that it could be tackled, and each is likely to have very different  UI requirements.

>
> For right now, I'm more concerned that this would arguably have been
> more effective in Recording Preferences, if possible.

+1

>
>
> Peter wrote:
>> Those that really want to finfd it will find it, set it and then forget about it.
>
> I disagree everyone will necessarily want to set it and forget it. It could be
> convenient to toggle this preference if you switch from a set of projects
> recording LPs to a set of projects doing overdubs.

I expect it to be "set it and forget it" for the vast majority of users, if for no other reason than "muscle memory".

Steve


>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>>> I'm glad that the Record button tooltip updates the primary and
>>> secondary record action when changing the new preference, but
>>> can we show the currently assigned shortcuts for those actions
>>> in the tooltip, like we do for other tooltips?
>>
>> Done.
>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/cd69bf074f16387565d7f6836037e5ff06bc1de5
>>
>> Thanks for asking for that.  I had not appreciated why there were two
>> push_backs before, and that had been a bit of a puzzle for me.
>
>> I added a comment in the code for future visitors.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2
In the interests of "testing" around I just did some QA testing to ensure that
Timere Record honours the user's setting for recording mode.

And yes it does.

Peter.

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2
And testing on W10 audacity-win-rd4726c2-2.2.0-alpha-02-may-17

and on Mac Sierra 10.12.4 02May17 rf51e4d81

I confirm that the tooltip for the Play button displays correctly with shortcut string
for Shift-modified behavior - and changes properly according to the user's setting
for the record mode.

Peter.

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
> a) the Shift-modified button display,
> b) the Transport commands,
> c) the shortcuts,

I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
(primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
Is there a reason for that?

> so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.

My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).

Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.


Steve wrote:
> Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
> as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.

"Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK, but if made a
per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.



Gale

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

David Bailes-3
On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
> a) the Shift-modified button display,
> b) the Transport commands,
> c) the shortcuts,

I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
(primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
Is there a reason for that?

> so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.

My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).

+1.

David. 

Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.


Steve wrote:
> Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
> as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.

"Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK, but if made a
per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.



Gale

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Gale


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
> a) the Shift-modified button display,
> b) the Transport commands,
> c) the shortcuts,

I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
(primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
Is there a reason for that?

> so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.

My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).

Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.

+1   -  I'm jolly  well hoping that will be the case too.

I found myself while testing yesterday, more than once, looking to set/reset
that pref and going to the Recordein Prefs dialog - and not finding it there.
 


Steve wrote:
> Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
> as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.

"Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK, but if made a
per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.



Gale

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Stevethefiddle
On 3 May 2017 at 08:30, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
>> > a) the Shift-modified button display,
>> > b) the Transport commands,
>> > c) the shortcuts,
>>
>> I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
>> (primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
>> Is there a reason for that?
>>
>> > so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.
>>
>> My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
>> button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
>> to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).
>>
>> Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
>> preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
>> tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.
>
>
> +1   -  I'm jolly  well hoping that will be the case too.
>
> I found myself while testing yesterday, more than once, looking to set/reset
> that pref and going to the Recordein Prefs dialog - and not finding it
> there.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
>> > as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.
>>
>> "Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK,

The other latency setting is "audio to buffer", which does concern
both recording and playback for some device drivers (but has no affect
on recording or playback for others).

Steve


>> but if made a
>> per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3 May 2017 at 08:30, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
>> > a) the Shift-modified button display,
>> > b) the Transport commands,
>> > c) the shortcuts,
>>
>> I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
>> (primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
>> Is there a reason for that?
>>
>> > so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.
>>
>> My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
>> button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
>> to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).
>>
>> Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
>> preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
>> tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.
>
>
> +1   -  I'm jolly  well hoping that will be the case too.
>
> I found myself while testing yesterday, more than once, looking to set/reset
> that pref and going to the Recordein Prefs dialog - and not finding it
> there.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
>> > as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.
>>
>> "Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK,

The other latency setting is "audio to buffer", which does concern
both recording and playback for some device drivers (but has no affect
on recording or playback for others).

In whica case I'd probably vote for moving it to Devices prefs anyway, regardless
of freeing up room in the Recording prefs dialog.

Peter.

Steve


>> but if made a
>> per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2
While riding my motorcycle on the S.Yorks. moors today this thought struck me ....

Why do'nt er tune thsi ne preference around the other way.

a) label it as "Multi-tracking" or maybe better "Multi-track Recording"

b) and turn it "offf" by default so that record-beside remains the new default behavior.

This way we get to put some focus on our multi-trackness,

plus I have a marginal preference for default settings to be "off" so that the user can
then choose to turn them "on".

Peter.


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3 May 2017 at 08:30, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
>> > a) the Shift-modified button display,
>> > b) the Transport commands,
>> > c) the shortcuts,
>>
>> I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
>> (primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
>> Is there a reason for that?
>>
>> > so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.
>>
>> My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
>> button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
>> to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).
>>
>> Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
>> preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
>> tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.
>
>
> +1   -  I'm jolly  well hoping that will be the case too.
>
> I found myself while testing yesterday, more than once, looking to set/reset
> that pref and going to the Recordein Prefs dialog - and not finding it
> there.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
>> > as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.
>>
>> "Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK,

The other latency setting is "audio to buffer", which does concern
both recording and playback for some device drivers (but has no affect
on recording or playback for others).

In whica case I'd probably vote for moving it to Devices prefs anyway, regardless
of freeing up room in the Recording prefs dialog.

Peter.

Steve


>> but if made a
>> per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Cliff Scott

On May 3, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While riding my motorcycle on the S.Yorks. moors today this thought struck me ....

Why do'nt er tune thsi ne preference around the other way.

a) label it as "Multi-tracking" or maybe better "Multi-track Recording"

b) and turn it "offf" by default so that record-beside remains the new default behavior.

This way we get to put some focus on our multi-trackness,

plus I have a marginal preference for default settings to be "off" so that the user can
then choose to turn them "on".

Peter.


I like the idea, but the term Multi-track seems, to me at least, imply recording multiple tracks which of course it isn't doing except for the stereo recording and we still call that one track. What if we changed the current wording from "Append recordings to the same track, by default" to "Recording starts new track, by default" and have it defaulted off? That way the user would need to consciously choose the "new" behavior.

Cliff


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3 May 2017 at 08:30, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
>> > a) the Shift-modified button display,
>> > b) the Transport commands,
>> > c) the shortcuts,
>>
>> I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
>> (primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
>> Is there a reason for that?
>>
>> > so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.
>>
>> My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
>> button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
>> to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).
>>
>> Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
>> preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
>> tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.
>
>
> +1   -  I'm jolly  well hoping that will be the case too.
>
> I found myself while testing yesterday, more than once, looking to set/reset
> that pref and going to the Recordein Prefs dialog - and not finding it
> there.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
>> > as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.
>>
>> "Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK,

The other latency setting is "audio to buffer", which does concern
both recording and playback for some device drivers (but has no affect
on recording or playback for others).

In whica case I'd probably vote for moving it to Devices prefs anyway, regardless
of freeing up room in the Recording prefs dialog.

Peter.

Steve


>> but if made a
>> per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>

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Re: New preference for default record being to new track.

Peter Sampson-2


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

On May 3, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While riding my motorcycle on the S.Yorks. moors today this thought struck me ....

Why do'nt er tune thsi ne preference around the other way.

a) label it as "Multi-tracking" or maybe better "Multi-track Recording"

b) and turn it "offf" by default so that record-beside remains the new default behavior.

This way we get to put some focus on our multi-trackness,

plus I have a marginal preference for default settings to be "off" so that the user can
then choose to turn them "on".

Peter.


I like the idea, but the term Multi-track seems, to me at least, imply recording multiple tracks which of course it isn't doing except for the stereo recording and we still call that one track. What if we changed the current wording from "Append recordings to the same track, by default" to "Recording starts new track, by default" and have it defaulted off? That way the user would need to consciously choose the "new" behavior.

That would totally counter James' intention with this change to make Append record the default.

His thinking (and mine too) here is that newbies are the ones who most get confused by record-below being the default.
His thinking (and mine too) is that newbies are the least likely to find, explore and understand Preferences.

So the new default setting is made that way to benefit newbies and occasionally users.

More advanced users who want to record-below can either learn to use Shift+Record/Shift+R
or with James' recent change reset this new preference.

So yes we could change the wording to "Recording starts new track" and have that turned "off" by default
the wording imo doesn't need "by default.

Indeed if we retain the current wording I think we should trim that to "Append recordings to same track"

Peter

Peter.
 

Cliff


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3 May 2017 at 08:30, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 May 2017 at 10:28, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > My testing on W10 shows that setting the Pref to "the old ways" re-sets:
>> > a) the Shift-modified button display,
>> > b) the Transport commands,
>> > c) the shortcuts,
>>
>> I don't see in the Record button tooltip the shortcut for Record
>> (primary action), even if I change the binding for the primary action.
>> Is there a reason for that?
>>
>> > so that should allay Gale's fears that all of these might not happen.
>>
>> My point was always this: if you are going to change a shortcut and
>> button press that has existed for 17 years, you should make it easy
>> to find out how to change it back (or even toggle it).
>>
>> Hopefully Recording Preferences will have room for the new
>> preference if we put the checkboxes for naming of recorded
>> tracks on one line and/or other ideas suggested.
>
>
> +1   -  I'm jolly  well hoping that will be the case too.
>
> I found myself while testing yesterday, more than once, looking to set/reset
> that pref and going to the Recordein Prefs dialog - and not finding it
> there.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > Imo, latency settings would be better in the the Devices preferences
>> > as they concern recording and playback settings for the device.
>>
>> "Latency correction" only affects recording AFAIK,

The other latency setting is "audio to buffer", which does concern
both recording and playback for some device drivers (but has no affect
on recording or playback for others).

In whica case I'd probably vote for moving it to Devices prefs anyway, regardless
of freeing up room in the Recording prefs dialog.

Peter.

Steve


>> but if made a
>> per-recording-device setting it would be fine to move it to Devices.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>

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