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New status messages

Paul Licameli
I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before, for cutlines:

"Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"

and for clip boundaries:

"Left-Click to join clips"


I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is


"Click to edit label text"


Gale, amend these as you see fit.


PRL




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Re: New status messages

Peter Sampson-2


On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before, for cutlines:

"Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"

and for clip boundaries:

"Left-Click to join clips"


I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is


"Click to edit label text"


If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two click actions:
1) left-click facilitates the edit
2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
 


Gale, amend these as you see fit.


PRL




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Re: New status messages

Paul Licameli


On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before, for cutlines:

"Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"

and for clip boundaries:

"Left-Click to join clips"


I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is


"Click to edit label text"


If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two click actions:
1) left-click facilitates the edit
2) right-click gets you the dropdown men

I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that you can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this goes without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".

But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
 
PRL

 


Gale, amend these as you see fit.


PRL




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Re: New status messages

Stevethefiddle
I'd bet that 99% of new users select some audio and then right click
intending to "Copy" from the menu. I know I did ;-)
It would also be extremely convenient for mouse users if Audacity
actually did that.

Steve

On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before, for
>>> cutlines:
>>>
>>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>>
>>> and for clip boundaries:
>>>
>>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>>>
>>>
>>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>>>
>>>
>>> "Click to edit label text"
>>
>>
>> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>> click actions:
>> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>
>
> I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that you
> can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
> context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this goes
> without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>
> But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>
> PRL
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>>
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: New status messages

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli
On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before, for
>>> cutlines:
>>>
>>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>>
>>> and for clip boundaries:
>>>
>>> "Left-Click to join clips"

It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
that includes a split line at either edge too hard.

So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
shorter yetː
"Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.


Gale


>>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>>>
>>>
>>> "Click to edit label text"
>>
>>
>> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>> click actions:
>> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>
>
> I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that you
> can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
> context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this goes
> without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>
> But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>
> PRL
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>>
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
>
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Re: New status messages

Paul Licameli


On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before, for
>>> cutlines:
>>>
>>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>>
>>> and for clip boundaries:
>>>
>>> "Left-Click to join clips"

It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
that includes a split line at either edge too hard.

You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message related to the hit test.

Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test candidates at one point?

Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when you drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but not quit dragging of the selection?
 

So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
shorter yetː
"Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.

I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.

I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to conventions of capitalization and such.

PRL

 


Gale


>>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>>>
>>>
>>> "Click to edit label text"
>>
>>
>> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>> click actions:
>> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>
>
> I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that you
> can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
> context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this goes
> without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>
> But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>
> PRL
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>>
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: New status messages

Gale
Administrator
On 20 June 2017 at 01:55, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before,
>> >>> for
>> >>> cutlines:
>> >>>
>> >>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>> >>>
>> >>> and for clip boundaries:
>> >>>
>> >>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>>
>> It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
>> that includes a split line at either edge too hard.
>
>
> You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message related
> to the hit test.

My "bugbear" goes back long before that. User adds a split line,
then tries to make a selection with the mouse starting from the line.
.
The line then disappears.


> Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later
> version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test
> candidates at one point?
>
> Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when you
> drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but not
> quit dragging of the selection?

Do you mean, so that ESC when clicking a split line and mouse is still down
cancels the merge and leaves the Split Line in situ? Yes that would help a
little but perhaps it is not very discoverable.

I always felt removing a split line is a big deal, and that right-click should
be required to do that, as with removing a Cut Line. But Steve thinks that too
much of an inconvenience, and it's potentially confusing given the longevity
of the current left-click to merge.


>> So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
>> shorter yetː
>> "Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.
>
>
> I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.

Precedent shows "click & drag" is acceptable shortening.


> I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to
> conventions of capitalization and such.

According to:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_capitalization_in_Audacity_dialogs_and_messages

Status Bar text takes sentence caps unless referring to a named
menu bar item in which case that named item has Title caps.

We don't capitalise Click as in "Left-Click" and "Right-Click" in
the Manual, but do in the Status Bar messages. The sentence case
converters I tried did not capitalise "Click" . So I think ideally we
would not do so in Status Bar. We would say "Left-click to merge"
etc. for all such items. This would affect other messages than your
new ones.


Gale

>> >>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Click to edit label text"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>> >> click actions:
>> >> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>> >> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>> >
>> >
>> > I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that
>> > you
>> > can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
>> > context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this
>> > goes
>> > without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>> >
>> > But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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Re: New status messages

Gale
Administrator
Though it is still a little long, I added "Click & drag to the line to make it
a selection edge." after the "Left-Click to join clips." Status Bar message.
Any shortening suggestions are welcome.

However I think it is unsatisfactory that History can show either "Merge"
or "Join" for the operation of removing split lines. The new Status Bar
message is inconsistent in that it refers to Left-click to join clips, but the
corresponding undo item for that action is "Undo Merge".

The Edit Menu items say "Join" and their "Undo" items say "Join".

Is there any technical difference between Join and Merge?


Gale


On 20 June 2017 at 19:23, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 20 June 2017 at 01:55, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
>>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli
>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before,
>>> >>> for
>>> >>> cutlines:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>> >>>
>>> >>> and for clip boundaries:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>>>
>>> It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
>>> that includes a split line at either edge too hard.
>>
>>
>> You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message related
>> to the hit test.
>
> My "bugbear" goes back long before that. User adds a split line,
> then tries to make a selection with the mouse starting from the line.
> .
> The line then disappears.
>
>
>> Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later
>> version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test
>> candidates at one point?
>>
>> Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when you
>> drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but not
>> quit dragging of the selection?
>
> Do you mean, so that ESC when clicking a split line and mouse is still down
> cancels the merge and leaves the Split Line in situ? Yes that would help a
> little but perhaps it is not very discoverable.
>
> I always felt removing a split line is a big deal, and that right-click should
> be required to do that, as with removing a Cut Line. But Steve thinks that too
> much of an inconvenience, and it's potentially confusing given the longevity
> of the current left-click to merge.
>
>
>>> So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
>>> shorter yetː
>>> "Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.
>>
>>
>> I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.
>
> Precedent shows "click & drag" is acceptable shortening.
>
>
>> I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to
>> conventions of capitalization and such.
>
> According to:
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_capitalization_in_Audacity_dialogs_and_messages
>
> Status Bar text takes sentence caps unless referring to a named
> menu bar item in which case that named item has Title caps.
>
> We don't capitalise Click as in "Left-Click" and "Right-Click" in
> the Manual, but do in the Status Bar messages. The sentence case
> converters I tried did not capitalise "Click" . So I think ideally we
> would not do so in Status Bar. We would say "Left-click to merge"
> etc. for all such items. This would affect other messages than your
> new ones.
>
>
> Gale
>
>>> >>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Click to edit label text"
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>>> >> click actions:
>>> >> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>>> >> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that
>>> > you
>>> > can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
>>> > context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this
>>> > goes
>>> > without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>>> >
>>> > But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>>> >
>>> > PRL
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> PRL
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: New status messages

James Crook
On 6/28/2017 6:17 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> Though it is still a little long, I added "Click & drag to the line to make it
> a selection edge." after the "Left-Click to join clips." Status Bar message.
> Any shortening suggestions are welcome.
I suggest shortening it to "Left-Click to join clips" :-)

"Left-Click to join clips. Click & drag to the line to make it a
selection edge."
Is unclear, and is the kind of detail that belongs in the manual.

Or how about:

"Left-Click (or select over and Ctrl J) to join clips. F5 (if not
already in multi-tool or time shift tool mode) and then drag right to
move a clip, provided there is space. Click elsewhere and then drag up
to the line (or use shift+left-arrow and shift+right-arrow) if you want
a selection that ends on that split line, or double click the clip on
the appropriate side and then adjust the other selection boundary to get
a selection that includes the split line."

I think there are some other equally important possibilities we could
mention too, for completeness.

--James.



>
> However I think it is unsatisfactory that History can show either "Merge"
> or "Join" for the operation of removing split lines. The new Status Bar
> message is inconsistent in that it refers to Left-click to join clips, but the
> corresponding undo item for that action is "Undo Merge".
>
> The Edit Menu items say "Join" and their "Undo" items say "Join".
>
> Is there any technical difference between Join and Merge?
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 20 June 2017 at 19:23, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 20 June 2017 at 01:55, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli
>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before,
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> cutlines:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and for clip boundaries:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>>>> It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
>>>> that includes a split line at either edge too hard.
>>>
>>> You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message related
>>> to the hit test.
>> My "bugbear" goes back long before that. User adds a split line,
>> then tries to make a selection with the mouse starting from the line.
>> .
>> The line then disappears.
>>
>>
>>> Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later
>>> version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test
>>> candidates at one point?
>>>
>>> Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when you
>>> drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but not
>>> quit dragging of the selection?
>> Do you mean, so that ESC when clicking a split line and mouse is still down
>> cancels the merge and leaves the Split Line in situ? Yes that would help a
>> little but perhaps it is not very discoverable.
>>
>> I always felt removing a split line is a big deal, and that right-click should
>> be required to do that, as with removing a Cut Line. But Steve thinks that too
>> much of an inconvenience, and it's potentially confusing given the longevity
>> of the current left-click to merge.
>>
>>
>>>> So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
>>>> shorter yetː
>>>> "Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.
>>>
>>> I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.
>> Precedent shows "click & drag" is acceptable shortening.
>>
>>
>>> I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to
>>> conventions of capitalization and such.
>> According to:
>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_capitalization_in_Audacity_dialogs_and_messages
>>
>> Status Bar text takes sentence caps unless referring to a named
>> menu bar item in which case that named item has Title caps.
>>
>> We don't capitalise Click as in "Left-Click" and "Right-Click" in
>> the Manual, but do in the Status Bar messages. The sentence case
>> converters I tried did not capitalise "Click" . So I think ideally we
>> would not do so in Status Bar. We would say "Left-click to merge"
>> etc. for all such items. This would affect other messages than your
>> new ones.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>>>>>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Click to edit label text"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>>>>>> click actions:
>>>>>> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>>>>>> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that
>>>>> you
>>>>> can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
>>>>> context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this
>>>>> goes
>>>>> without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>>>>>
>>>>> But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>>>>>
>>>>> PRL
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PRL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality



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Re: New status messages

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
If I understand correctly, the real problem is a bit like that of
multitool.  A click may be to perform an action (remove split line) or
to start a selection, and Audacity cannot tell which.  So we disallow
the drag behaviour. Paul's TAB idea could 'fix' that, but another
alternative implementation would be that the split-line have a circle at
its centre with a - in it.  Click on that and the split line vanishes.

If we do that the ambiguity is gone, the interface is easier, and
instead of multi-clause status hints, we can have a single shorter
hint.   Only if your cursor is over the '-' do you get the hint about
joining.

--James.

On 6/28/2017 6:17 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> Though it is still a little long, I added "Click & drag to the line to make it
> a selection edge." after the "Left-Click to join clips." Status Bar message.
> Any shortening suggestions are welcome.
>
> However I think it is unsatisfactory that History can show either "Merge"
> or "Join" for the operation of removing split lines. The new Status Bar
> message is inconsistent in that it refers to Left-click to join clips, but the
> corresponding undo item for that action is "Undo Merge".
>
> The Edit Menu items say "Join" and their "Undo" items say "Join".
>
> Is there any technical difference between Join and Merge?
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 20 June 2017 at 19:23, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 20 June 2017 at 01:55, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli
>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before,
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> cutlines:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and for clip boundaries:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>>>> It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
>>>> that includes a split line at either edge too hard.
>>>
>>> You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message related
>>> to the hit test.
>> My "bugbear" goes back long before that. User adds a split line,
>> then tries to make a selection with the mouse starting from the line.
>> .
>> The line then disappears.
>>
>>
>>> Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later
>>> version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test
>>> candidates at one point?
>>>
>>> Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when you
>>> drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but not
>>> quit dragging of the selection?
>> Do you mean, so that ESC when clicking a split line and mouse is still down
>> cancels the merge and leaves the Split Line in situ? Yes that would help a
>> little but perhaps it is not very discoverable.
>>
>> I always felt removing a split line is a big deal, and that right-click should
>> be required to do that, as with removing a Cut Line. But Steve thinks that too
>> much of an inconvenience, and it's potentially confusing given the longevity
>> of the current left-click to merge.
>>
>>
>>>> So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
>>>> shorter yetː
>>>> "Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.
>>>
>>> I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.
>> Precedent shows "click & drag" is acceptable shortening.
>>
>>
>>> I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to
>>> conventions of capitalization and such.
>> According to:
>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_capitalization_in_Audacity_dialogs_and_messages
>>
>> Status Bar text takes sentence caps unless referring to a named
>> menu bar item in which case that named item has Title caps.
>>
>> We don't capitalise Click as in "Left-Click" and "Right-Click" in
>> the Manual, but do in the Status Bar messages. The sentence case
>> converters I tried did not capitalise "Click" . So I think ideally we
>> would not do so in Status Bar. We would say "Left-click to merge"
>> etc. for all such items. This would affect other messages than your
>> new ones.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>>>>>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Click to edit label text"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>>>>>> click actions:
>>>>>> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>>>>>> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that
>>>>> you
>>>>> can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
>>>>> context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this
>>>>> goes
>>>>> without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>>>>>
>>>>> But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>>>>>
>>>>> PRL
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PRL


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Re: New status messages

Paul Licameli
In reply to this post by Gale


On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
Though it is still a little long, I added "Click & drag to the line to make it
a selection edge." after the "Left-Click to join clips." Status Bar message.
Any shortening suggestions are welcome.

However I think it is unsatisfactory that History can show either "Merge"
or "Join" for the operation of removing split lines. The new Status Bar
message is inconsistent in that it refers to Left-click to join clips, but the
corresponding undo item for that action is "Undo Merge".

The Edit Menu items say "Join" and their "Undo" items say "Join".

Is there any technical difference between Join and Merge?


Gale

You can search for "Join" and for "Merge" (quotes included) to see where the strings are pushed in Undo history.

"Merge" results from left-click on one boundary.

"Join" results from the Join command which removes boundaries any number of boundaries within the selection.

Different paths in the code.

Change the strings at your discretion.

PRL

 


On 20 June 2017 at 19:23, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 20 June 2017 at 01:55, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
>>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli
>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before,
>>> >>> for
>>> >>> cutlines:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>> >>>
>>> >>> and for clip boundaries:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>>>
>>> It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
>>> that includes a split line at either edge too hard.
>>
>>
>> You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message related
>> to the hit test.
>
> My "bugbear" goes back long before that. User adds a split line,
> then tries to make a selection with the mouse starting from the line.
> .
> The line then disappears.
>
>
>> Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later
>> version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test
>> candidates at one point?
>>
>> Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when you
>> drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but not
>> quit dragging of the selection?
>
> Do you mean, so that ESC when clicking a split line and mouse is still down
> cancels the merge and leaves the Split Line in situ? Yes that would help a
> little but perhaps it is not very discoverable.
>
> I always felt removing a split line is a big deal, and that right-click should
> be required to do that, as with removing a Cut Line. But Steve thinks that too
> much of an inconvenience, and it's potentially confusing given the longevity
> of the current left-click to merge.
>
>
>>> So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
>>> shorter yetː
>>> "Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.
>>
>>
>> I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.
>
> Precedent shows "click & drag" is acceptable shortening.
>
>
>> I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to
>> conventions of capitalization and such.
>
> According to:
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_capitalization_in_Audacity_dialogs_and_messages
>
> Status Bar text takes sentence caps unless referring to a named
> menu bar item in which case that named item has Title caps.
>
> We don't capitalise Click as in "Left-Click" and "Right-Click" in
> the Manual, but do in the Status Bar messages. The sentence case
> converters I tried did not capitalise "Click" . So I think ideally we
> would not do so in Status Bar. We would say "Left-click to merge"
> etc. for all such items. This would affect other messages than your
> new ones.
>
>
> Gale
>
>>> >>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text is
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Click to edit label text"
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are two
>>> >> click actions:
>>> >> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>>> >> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that
>>> > you
>>> > can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
>>> > context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this
>>> > goes
>>> > without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>>> >
>>> > But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>>> >
>>> > PRL
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> PRL
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>

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Re: New status messages

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 28 June 2017 at 18:35, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6/28/2017 6:17 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> Though it is still a little long, I added "Click & drag to the line to
>> make it
>> a selection edge." after the "Left-Click to join clips." Status Bar
>> message.
>> Any shortening suggestions are welcome.
>
> I suggest shortening it to "Left-Click to join clips" :-)
>
> "Left-Click to join clips. Click & drag to the line to make it a selection
> edge."
> Is unclear, and is the kind of detail that belongs in the manual.

Unfortunately users tend to complain on the Forum rather than
look in TFM.

You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid and
unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
the split line.

Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
James may have got the hint too.


> Or how about:
>
> "Left-Click (or select over and Ctrl J) to join clips. F5 (if not already in
> multi-tool or time shift tool mode) and then drag right to move a clip,
> provided there is space. Click elsewhere and then drag up to the line (or
> use shift+left-arrow and shift+right-arrow) if you want a selection that
> ends on that split line, or double click the clip on the appropriate side
> and then adjust the other selection boundary to get a selection that
> includes the split line."
>
> I think there are some other equally important possibilities we could
> mention too, for completeness.

Constructive suggestions about the current added wording are
welcome, until hopefully we no longer need that help.


Gale


> --James.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> However I think it is unsatisfactory that History can show either "Merge"
>> or "Join" for the operation of removing split lines. The new Status Bar
>> message is inconsistent in that it refers to Left-click to join clips, but
>> the
>> corresponding undo item for that action is "Undo Merge".
>>
>> The Edit Menu items say "Join" and their "Undo" items say "Join".
>>
>> Is there any technical difference between Join and Merge?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 20 June 2017 at 19:23, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 20 June 2017 at 01:55, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none before,
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> cutlines:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and for clip boundaries:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>>>>>
>>>>> It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
>>>>> that includes a split line at either edge too hard.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message
>>>> related
>>>> to the hit test.
>>>
>>> My "bugbear" goes back long before that. User adds a split line,
>>> then tries to make a selection with the mouse starting from the line.
>>> .
>>> The line then disappears.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later
>>>> version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test
>>>> candidates at one point?
>>>>
>>>> Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when
>>>> you
>>>> drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but not
>>>> quit dragging of the selection?
>>>
>>> Do you mean, so that ESC when clicking a split line and mouse is still
>>> down
>>> cancels the merge and leaves the Split Line in situ? Yes that would help
>>> a
>>> little but perhaps it is not very discoverable.
>>>
>>> I always felt removing a split line is a big deal, and that right-click
>>> should
>>> be required to do that, as with removing a Cut Line. But Steve thinks
>>> that too
>>> much of an inconvenience, and it's potentially confusing given the
>>> longevity
>>> of the current left-click to merge.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
>>>>> shorter yetː
>>>>> "Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.
>>>
>>> Precedent shows "click & drag" is acceptable shortening.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to
>>>> conventions of capitalization and such.
>>>
>>> According to:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_capitalization_in_Audacity_dialogs_and_messages
>>>
>>> Status Bar text takes sentence caps unless referring to a named
>>> menu bar item in which case that named item has Title caps.
>>>
>>> We don't capitalise Click as in "Left-Click" and "Right-Click" in
>>> the Manual, but do in the Status Bar messages. The sentence case
>>> converters I tried did not capitalise "Click" . So I think ideally we
>>> would not do so in Status Bar. We would say "Left-click to merge"
>>> etc. for all such items. This would affect other messages than your
>>> new ones.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>>>>>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working text
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Click to edit label text"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are
>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>> click actions:
>>>>>>> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>>>>>>> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity that
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an appropriate
>>>>>> context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and this
>>>>>> goes
>>>>>> without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming "tl;dr".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PRL
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PRL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: New status messages

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli
Thanks for explaining the difference between merge and join.

As I don't see this causing a lot of user confusion right now,
perhaps the best would be just to change the Status Bar
message to "Left-Click to merge clips".


Gale


On 28 June 2017 at 18:50, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Though it is still a little long, I added "Click & drag to the line to
>> make it
>> a selection edge." after the "Left-Click to join clips." Status Bar
>> message.
>> Any shortening suggestions are welcome.
>>
>> However I think it is unsatisfactory that History can show either "Merge"
>> or "Join" for the operation of removing split lines. The new Status Bar
>> message is inconsistent in that it refers to Left-click to join clips, but
>> the
>> corresponding undo item for that action is "Undo Merge".
>>
>> The Edit Menu items say "Join" and their "Undo" items say "Join".
>>
>> Is there any technical difference between Join and Merge?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>
>
> You can search for "Join" and for "Merge" (quotes included) to see where the
> strings are pushed in Undo history.
>
> "Merge" results from left-click on one boundary.
>
> "Join" results from the Join command which removes boundaries any number of
> boundaries within the selection.
>
> Different paths in the code.
>
> Change the strings at your discretion.
>
> PRL
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 June 2017 at 19:23, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 20 June 2017 at 01:55, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On 19 June 2017 at 17:19, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Peter Sampson
>> >>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Paul Licameli
>> >>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> I have added mouse-over status messages were there were none
>> >>> >>> before,
>> >>> >>> for
>> >>> >>> cutlines:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> "Left-Click to expand, Right-Click to remove"
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> and for clip boundaries:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> "Left-Click to join clips"
>> >>>
>> >>> It's an old bugbear of mine that this makes drawing a selection
>> >>> that includes a split line at either edge too hard.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You refer to the hit-test logic, more so than the particular message
>> >> related
>> >> to the hit test.
>> >
>> > My "bugbear" goes back long before that. User adds a split line,
>> > then tries to make a selection with the mouse starting from the line.
>> > .
>> > The line then disappears.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Do you agree that is one more small reason that Audacity, in a later
>> >> version, would benefit from TAB key cycling through multiple hit-test
>> >> candidates at one point?
>> >>
>> >> Or, is your complaint more about how the yellow snap lines behave when
>> >> you
>> >> drag?  Would you perhaps like ESC to escape from a snap position but
>> >> not
>> >> quit dragging of the selection?
>> >
>> > Do you mean, so that ESC when clicking a split line and mouse is still
>> > down
>> > cancels the merge and leaves the Split Line in situ? Yes that would help
>> > a
>> > little but perhaps it is not very discoverable.
>> >
>> > I always felt removing a split line is a big deal, and that right-click
>> > should
>> > be required to do that, as with removing a Cut Line. But Steve thinks
>> > that too
>> > much of an inconvenience, and it's potentially confusing given the
>> > longevity
>> > of the current left-click to merge.
>> >
>> >
>> >>> So the followinɡ tempts me but I have not found a way to make it
>> >>> shorter yetː
>> >>> "Left-Click to join clips, click and drag to the line to select to it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I agree that is a little long.  But the call is yours.
>> >
>> > Precedent shows "click & drag" is acceptable shortening.
>> >
>> >
>> >> I raised this question more to make sure that the message conforms to
>> >> conventions of capitalization and such.
>> >
>> > According to:
>> >
>> > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_capitalization_in_Audacity_dialogs_and_messages
>> >
>> > Status Bar text takes sentence caps unless referring to a named
>> > menu bar item in which case that named item has Title caps.
>> >
>> > We don't capitalise Click as in "Left-Click" and "Right-Click" in
>> > the Manual, but do in the Status Bar messages. The sentence case
>> > converters I tried did not capitalise "Click" . So I think ideally we
>> > would not do so in Status Bar. We would say "Left-click to merge"
>> > etc. for all such items. This would affect other messages than your
>> > new ones.
>> >
>> >
>> > Gale
>> >
>> >>> >>> I intend soon to add one for label text boxes, and the working
>> >>> >>> text is
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> "Click to edit label text"
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> If you do, you need to remember that for label text boxes there are
>> >>> >> two
>> >>> >> click actions:
>> >>> >> 1) left-click facilitates the edit
>> >>> >> 2) right-click gets you the dropdown men
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I think it should be the universal convention in future Audacity
>> >>> > that
>> >>> > you
>> >>> > can right-click on any active item on the screen to get an
>> >>> > appropriate
>> >>> > context menu, as is the convention in so many other programs, and
>> >>> > this
>> >>> > goes
>> >>> > without mentioning, to keep status bar messages from becoming
>> >>> > "tl;dr".
>> >>> >
>> >>> > But of course that does not yet describe our Audacity.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > PRL
>> >>> >
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Gale, amend these as you see fit.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> PRL
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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>> >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
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>> >>>
>> >>>
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Re: New status messages

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 6/28/2017 11:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid and
> unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
> the split line.
>
> Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
> James may have got the hint too.
OK then.  I have reverted it.
https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2f3530e1f88a1d1364229060027f1d4ef9b108f1

It was not good for Audacity as it is verbose and confusing.  I assume
we disagree on that, and possible ways forward if you don't agree with
my treating it as a regression are to get it agreed on the wiki wording
page, or get Paul as RM to arbitrate (now that there is a difference of
opinion to deal with), or raise your bugbear as a bug.  A status message
is the wrong way to deal with the underlying issue.

--James.


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Re: New status messages

Gale
Administrator
On 29 June 2017 at 00:13, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6/28/2017 11:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid and
>> unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
>> the split line.
>>
>> Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
>> James may have got the hint too.
>
> OK then.  I have reverted it.
> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2f3530e1f88a1d1364229060027f1d4ef9b108f1
>
> It was not good for Audacity as it is verbose and confusing.  I assume we
> disagree on that, and possible ways forward if you don't agree with my
> treating it as a regression are to get it agreed on the wiki wording page,
> or get Paul as RM to arbitrate (now that there is a difference of opinion to
> deal with), or raise your bugbear as a bug.  A status message is the wrong
> way to deal with the underlying issue.

It's easy to opine that a wording is bad without suggesting something else.
I doubt there is a way to 100% unconfusingly convey that you need to
select in reverse (in five words). Prove me wrong. I asked for suggestions.

As you noticed, Paul has been dropping repeated hints that I have
"discretion" over status bar messages. So yes I saw the opportunity of
trying to help our users out a little instead of getting caught in this trap.

I don't see http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800 being
fixed any time soon, even though I now promoted it to P2. Do you? So,
that still means users will get stuck, "verbosity" or not.



Gale


> --James.
>
>
>
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Re: New status messages

Paul Licameli


On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29 June 2017 at 00:13, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 11:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid and
>> unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
>> the split line.
>>
>> Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
>> James may have got the hint too.
>
> OK then.  I have reverted it.
> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2f3530e1f88a1d1364229060027f1d4ef9b108f1
>
> It was not good for Audacity as it is verbose and confusing.  I assume we
> disagree on that, and possible ways forward if you don't agree with my
> treating it as a regression are to get it agreed on the wiki wording page,
> or get Paul as RM to arbitrate (now that there is a difference of opinion to
> deal with), or raise your bugbear as a bug.  A status message is the wrong
> way to deal with the underlying issue.

It's easy to opine that a wording is bad without suggesting something else.
I doubt there is a way to 100% unconfusingly convey that you need to
select in reverse (in five words). Prove me wrong. I asked for suggestions.

As you noticed, Paul has been dropping repeated hints that I have
"discretion" over status bar messages. So yes I saw the opportunity of
trying to help our users out a little instead of getting caught in this trap.

I don't see http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800 being
fixed any time soon, even though I now promoted it to P2. Do you? So,
that still means users will get stuck, "verbosity" or not.


I could call for a schedule stretch and try reaaaaally really hard to get a version of the TAB key thing going...

PRL

 


Gale


> --James.
>
>
>
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Re: New status messages

David Bailes-3
On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 2:12 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29 June 2017 at 00:13, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 11:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid and
>> unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
>> the split line.
>>
>> Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
>> James may have got the hint too.
>
> OK then.  I have reverted it.
> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2f3530e1f88a1d1364229060027f1d4ef9b108f1
>
> It was not good for Audacity as it is verbose and confusing.  I assume we
> disagree on that, and possible ways forward if you don't agree with my
> treating it as a regression are to get it agreed on the wiki wording page,
> or get Paul as RM to arbitrate (now that there is a difference of opinion to
> deal with), or raise your bugbear as a bug.  A status message is the wrong
> way to deal with the underlying issue.

It's easy to opine that a wording is bad without suggesting something else.
I doubt there is a way to 100% unconfusingly convey that you need to
select in reverse (in five words). Prove me wrong. I asked for suggestions.

As you noticed, Paul has been dropping repeated hints that I have
"discretion" over status bar messages. So yes I saw the opportunity of
trying to help our users out a little instead of getting caught in this trap.

I don't see http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800 being
fixed any time soon, even though I now promoted it to P2. Do you? So,
that still means users will get stuck, "verbosity" or not.


I could call for a schedule stretch

Given the problem with Audacity 2.1.3 (and all other versions that I've checked) crashing when using Jaws on Windows 10 1703, then at least for Jaws users, it would be extremely helpful if 2.2.0 was released on schedule. This problem is affecting more Jaws users as 1703 is rolled out.

David.

David.
 
and try reaaaaally really hard to get a version of the TAB key thing going...

PRL

 


Gale


> --James.
>
>
>
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Re: New status messages

Stevethefiddle
On 29 June 2017 at 08:52, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 2:12 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 29 June 2017 at 00:13, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > On 6/28/2017 11:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid
>>> >> and
>>> >> unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
>>> >> the split line.
>>> >>
>>> >> Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
>>> >> James may have got the hint too.
>>> >
>>> > OK then.  I have reverted it.
>>> >
>>> > https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2f3530e1f88a1d1364229060027f1d4ef9b108f1
>>> >
>>> > It was not good for Audacity as it is verbose and confusing.  I assume
>>> > we
>>> > disagree on that, and possible ways forward if you don't agree with my
>>> > treating it as a regression are to get it agreed on the wiki wording
>>> > page,
>>> > or get Paul as RM to arbitrate (now that there is a difference of
>>> > opinion to
>>> > deal with), or raise your bugbear as a bug.  A status message is the
>>> > wrong
>>> > way to deal with the underlying issue.
>>>
>>> It's easy to opine that a wording is bad without suggesting something
>>> else.
>>> I doubt there is a way to 100% unconfusingly convey that you need to
>>> select in reverse (in five words). Prove me wrong. I asked for
>>> suggestions.
>>>
>>> As you noticed, Paul has been dropping repeated hints that I have
>>> "discretion" over status bar messages. So yes I saw the opportunity of
>>> trying to help our users out a little instead of getting caught in this
>>> trap.
>>>
>>> I don't see http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800 being
>>> fixed any time soon, even though I now promoted it to P2. Do you? So,
>>> that still means users will get stuck, "verbosity" or not.
>>>
>>
>> I could call for a schedule stretch
>
>
> Given the problem with Audacity 2.1.3 (and all other versions that I've
> checked) crashing when using Jaws on Windows 10 1703, then at least for Jaws
> users, it would be extremely helpful if 2.2.0 was released on schedule. This
> problem is affecting more Jaws users as 1703 is rolled out.

Perhaps better that we focus on the features that we have said we want
for 2.2.0?
For example, we still don't have cross-platform MIDI playback, which
would be a flagship feature if we can pull it off.

Steve

>
> David.
>
> David.
>
>>
>> and try reaaaaally really hard to get a version of the TAB key thing
>> going...
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>> > --James.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: New status messages

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by David Bailes-3
A) I am with James here in thinking that if there is an issue here, a bug or a design fault
then we dhould be fixing that bug/design fault rathart than "papering over the cracks"
with a verbose tricky Status Bar message. 

And,just as many folk don't RTRM I'm pretty sute that many also don'y read the Status
Bar messages (especially when they are verbose and over-long). In fact I'm pretty sure
that many users never eben notice the Status BAr down at the bottom of the window.


B) And I am with David here in thinking that we should try and get 2.2.0 out on schedule.
In my professional experience slippage often leads to more slippage.


So my proposal here is:

1) Let's leave this particular Status Bar message the way it was (the way James has
reverted to)

2) We should log a Bugzilla entry to track this defificiency and write a Proposal
in the Wiki as the discussion vehicle for addressing it.

3) Get 2.2.0 out on schedule

4) Treat this deficiency as a high priority to be dealt with once 2.2.0 is out the door,
so that it gets dealt with properly for the next release after 2.2.0.

Peter.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 8:52 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 2:12 AM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29 June 2017 at 00:13, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 11:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid and
>> unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
>> the split line.
>>
>> Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
>> James may have got the hint too.
>
> OK then.  I have reverted it.
> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2f3530e1f88a1d1364229060027f1d4ef9b108f1
>
> It was not good for Audacity as it is verbose and confusing.  I assume we
> disagree on that, and possible ways forward if you don't agree with my
> treating it as a regression are to get it agreed on the wiki wording page,
> or get Paul as RM to arbitrate (now that there is a difference of opinion to
> deal with), or raise your bugbear as a bug.  A status message is the wrong
> way to deal with the underlying issue.

It's easy to opine that a wording is bad without suggesting something else.
I doubt there is a way to 100% unconfusingly convey that you need to
select in reverse (in five words). Prove me wrong. I asked for suggestions.

As you noticed, Paul has been dropping repeated hints that I have
"discretion" over status bar messages. So yes I saw the opportunity of
trying to help our users out a little instead of getting caught in this trap.

I don't see http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800 being
fixed any time soon, even though I now promoted it to P2. Do you? So,
that still means users will get stuck, "verbosity" or not.


I could call for a schedule stretch

Given the problem with Audacity 2.1.3 (and all other versions that I've checked) crashing when using Jaws on Windows 10 1703, then at least for Jaws users, it would be extremely helpful if 2.2.0 was released on schedule. This problem is affecting more Jaws users as 1703 is rolled out.

David.

David.
 
and try reaaaaally really hard to get a version of the TAB key thing going...

PRL

 


Gale


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Re: New status messages

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 6/29/2017 1:24 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> On 29 June 2017 at 00:13, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 6/28/2017 11:35 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> You can think of it as my little nag to finally address this stupid and
>>> unintuitive nuisance where you have to select in reverse to preserve
>>> the split line.
>>>
>>> Paul had an idea about it (thanks, Paul) and I see further below that
>>> James may have got the hint too.
>> OK then.  I have reverted it.
>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2f3530e1f88a1d1364229060027f1d4ef9b108f1
>>
>> It was not good for Audacity as it is verbose and confusing.  I assume we
>> disagree on that, and possible ways forward if you don't agree with my
>> treating it as a regression are to get it agreed on the wiki wording page,
>> or get Paul as RM to arbitrate (now that there is a difference of opinion to
>> deal with), or raise your bugbear as a bug.  A status message is the wrong
>> way to deal with the underlying issue.
> It's easy to opine that a wording is bad without suggesting something else.
> I doubt there is a way to 100% unconfusingly convey that you need to
> select in reverse (in five words). Prove me wrong. I asked for suggestions.
I made a suggestion, which was to NOT try to say that.
I think most users will figure out a way to make the selection they
want.  At worst they remove the split point first, and if they can't
figure that out we/they have deeper problems.


> As you noticed, Paul has been dropping repeated hints that I have
> "discretion" over status bar messages.
In the context where no one else is too concerned.  It amounts to him
saying he is not too concerned about what the status bar message is.  
Now that there is a difference of opinion, rather than us changing it
back and forth, probably he will have to arbitrate.

> So yes I saw the opportunity of
> trying to help our users out a little instead of getting caught in this trap.
>
> I don't see http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800 being
> fixed any time soon, even though I now promoted it to P2. Do you? So,
> that still means users will get stuck, "verbosity" or not.

Making the split line 2/3rds of the track height (middle 2/3rds)  is a
relatively simple fix.  Easier than the '-' in a circle that I
suggested.  (It avoids the problem of what happens if the 'icon' is
partly off the track or if the icon overlaps with another).

It would be low priority, normally, though there could be a commitment
to have it (or something better) for 2.2.1.  Your lobbying does matter,
so you could reconfirm that you really do think Bug 800 merits P2, and
ask me, Steve or Paul to implement the 2/3rds height fix.  Do that, and
I'd say it would be 90% likely it would be in 2.2.0.  In return we'd ask
that you test and close Bug 800 (assuming it were fixed) within a few
days of the fix.

I don't think the fuller 'TAB' fix would make it or be wise for 2.2.0 -
though it's RM's decision.  It isn't fully thought through yet, is a
fair bit of work, and there are other competing higher value
features/tweaks about.  So tying 800 to the TAB fix would probably mean
2.2.1 or later.

--James.



>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>> --James.
>>
>>
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