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Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.

Steve

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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Vaughan Johnson-4
+1.

And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are no tracks.

- V

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.

Steve

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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Gale
Administrator
+1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.

Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?


Gale

On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1.
>
> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
> no tracks.
>
> - V
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

James Crook
Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
loaded from a file.

Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.

How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
not in the default sorting?

--James.


On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>
> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>
>
> Gale
>
> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> +1.
>>
>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>> no tracks.
>>
>> - V
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Vaughan Johnson-4


On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1.

And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are no tracks.

There was a complaint (for that reason) on the forum yesterday that the Nyquist Prompt should be available without a selection.
I agree that it should be available without a selection, and without any tracks.

Steve

 

- V

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.

Steve

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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale


On 25 April 2017 at 02:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.

Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?


I agree that it does not really belong in the Effect menu, but also:

* "Regular Interval Labels" does not belong in the "Analyze" menu.
* Robert's "Nyquist Helper" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu. It should ideally be in the "Help" menu, but we can't currently do that with Nyquist plug-ins.
* My "Quick Conversion Calculator" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu.
* "Screenshot Tools" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Run Benchmark" would perhaps fit better in "Help > Diagnostics", but the "Sceenshot Tools" is on its own in "Help > Tools".
* "Check Dependencies" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Mixer Board" are not a good fit in the "View" menu (most DAWs list their mixer in a "Window" menu).
* "Karaoke", similar to "Mixer Board" case.
* "Nyquist Workbench", similar to "Mixer Board" case.

Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

Steve

 


Gale

On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> +1.
>
> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
> no tracks.
>
> - V
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
>
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by James Crook


On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
loaded from a file.

Yes, the built-in Nyquist Prompt dynamically generates Nyquist plug-ins, but it is not itself a Nyquist plug-in.

 

Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.

I agree that it looks strange to have Nyquist twice in types, but I think a better solution is to list it with the other built-in effects (or better still, in a tools / utilities menu).

Steve
 

How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
not in the default sorting?

--James.


On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>
> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>
>
> Gale
>
> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> +1.
>>
>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>> no tracks.
>>
>> - V
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
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>


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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 25 April 2017 at 02:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.

Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?


I agree that it does not really belong in the Effect menu, but also:

* "Regular Interval Labels" does not belong in the "Analyze" menu.
* Robert's "Nyquist Helper" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu. It should ideally be in the "Help" menu, but we can't currently do that with Nyquist plug-ins.
* My "Quick Conversion Calculator" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu.
* "Screenshot Tools" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Run Benchmark" would perhaps fit better in "Help > Diagnostics", but the "Sceenshot Tools" is on its own in "Help > Tools".
* "Check Dependencies" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Mixer Board" are not a good fit in the "View" menu (most DAWs list their mixer in a "Window" menu).
* "Karaoke", similar to "Mixer Board" case.
* "Nyquist Workbench", similar to "Mixer Board" case.

Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

A further reorganization as proposed here would put an additional strain on documentation effort.

I'm struggling right now with the existing 2.2.0 changes - it is proving to be a mammoth task.

The problem lies not in the documentation of the commands and menu structures themselves,
bur rather with the numerous links to these commands that we liberally sprinkle throughout
the Manual.

This is not a reason not to do this, but just warning on the impact that it would have on the Manual
editorial work (which would be P1 and thus a potential blocker).

Cheers,
Peter.

 

Steve

 


Gale

On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> +1.
>
> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
> no tracks.
>
> - V
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle


On 25 April 2017 at 11:41, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 25 April 2017 at 02:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.

Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?


I agree that it does not really belong in the Effect menu, but also:

* "Regular Interval Labels" does not belong in the "Analyze" menu.
* Robert's "Nyquist Helper" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu. It should ideally be in the "Help" menu, but we can't currently do that with Nyquist plug-ins.
* My "Quick Conversion Calculator" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu.
* "Screenshot Tools" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Run Benchmark" would perhaps fit better in "Help > Diagnostics", but the "Sceenshot Tools" is on its own in "Help > Tools".
* "Check Dependencies" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Mixer Board" are not a good fit in the "View" menu (most DAWs list their mixer in a "Window" menu).
* "Karaoke", similar to "Mixer Board" case.
* "Nyquist Workbench", similar to "Mixer Board" case.

Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

A further reorganization as proposed here would put an additional strain on documentation effort.

I'm struggling right now with the existing 2.2.0 changes - it is proving to be a mammoth task.

The problem lies not in the documentation of the commands and menu structures themselves,
bur rather with the numerous links to these commands that we liberally sprinkle throughout
the Manual.

This is not a reason not to do this, but just warning on the impact that it would have on the Manual
editorial work (which would be P1 and thus a potential blocker).

From previous discussions, I don't think anyone wants a big menu reorganization now and then another reorganization later.
Also, we don't yet have a scheduled release date.

I think it's important that we sort out the menus now, because, other than perhaps minor tweaks, we're likely to be living with them for some time to come. Better that we spend the time now to get it as right as we can, than regret not doing it differently.

Putting the Nyquist Prompt in with the Nyquist plug-ins, is for me, (much) "worse than before". Also, I don't think it's "right" for the reasons I've given.

Steve


 

Cheers,
Peter.

 

Steve

 


Gale

On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> +1.
>
> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
> no tracks.
>
> - V
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>
>
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

James Crook
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
Steve wrote:
Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

I'm -0.5 on a Tools menu, but persuadable.  I don't have strong objections to it, but would not want to make the change in Audacity myself.  If the changes are made in Audacity by you or someone else, I can regenerate the imagemaps for the manual.  If it's only a passing thought I'd say don't do it.

With about 8 items moving, I think 8 search-and-replace of strings should be enough to do the additional work of changing the link text for just those items in the manual.  A lot of the work Peter is doing on the menu links is because what is currently there for menu links in the manual is not following a sufficiently consistent pattern.  So they have to be looked at individually.  Buanzo is currently looking at why search-and-replace does not work for me.  It might be CloudFlare caching.

The main downside is that I predict 'Tools' becoming an "I don't know where to put this menu item" menu, and as a result disorganised.  But 'View' risks that too.

--James.






On 4/25/2017 11:41 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]
wrote:

      

On 25 April 2017 at 02:56, Gale Andrews [hidden email] wrote:

+1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.

Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?


I agree that it does not really belong in the Effect menu, but also:

* "Regular Interval Labels" does not belong in the "Analyze" menu.
* Robert's "Nyquist Helper" (not shipped) does not belong in the
"Generate" menu. It should ideally be in the "Help" menu, but we can't
currently do that with Nyquist plug-ins.
* My "Quick Conversion Calculator" (not shipped) does not belong in the
"Generate" menu.
* "Screenshot Tools" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Run Benchmark" would perhaps fit better in "Help > Diagnostics", but
the "Sceenshot Tools" is on its own in "Help > Tools".
* "Check Dependencies" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Mixer Board" are not a good fit in the "View" menu (most DAWs list
their mixer in a "Window" menu).
* "Karaoke", similar to "Mixer Board" case.
* "Nyquist Workbench", similar to "Mixer Board" case.

Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

A further reorganization as proposed here would put an additional strain on
documentation effort.

I'm struggling right now with the existing 2.2.0 changes - it is proving to
be a mammoth task.

The problem lies not in the documentation of the commands and menu
structures themselves,
bur rather with the numerous links to these commands that we liberally
sprinkle throughout
the Manual.

This is not a reason not to do this, but just warning on the impact that it
would have on the Manual
editorial work (which would be P1 and thus a potential blocker).

Cheers,
Peter.



Steve




Gale

On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson [hidden email] wrote:
+1.

And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when
there are
no tracks.

- V

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <
[hidden email]>
wrote:
The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in",
so
it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.

Steve


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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle


On 25 April 2017 at 12:30, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve wrote:
Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

I'm -0.5 on a Tools menu, but persuadable.  I don't have strong objections to it, but would not want to make the change in Audacity myself.  If the changes are made in Audacity by you or someone else, I can regenerate the imagemaps for the manual.  If it's only a passing thought I'd say don't do it.

With about 8 items moving, I think 8 search-and-replace of strings should be enough to do the additional work of changing the link text for just those items in the manual.  A lot of the work Peter is doing on the menu links is because what is currently there for menu links in the manual is not following a sufficiently consistent pattern.  So they have to be looked at individually.  Buanzo is currently looking at why search-and-replace does not work for me.  It might be CloudFlare caching.

The main downside is that I predict 'Tools' becoming an "I don't know where to put this menu item" menu, and as a result disorganised.  But 'View' risks that too.

I agree that's a valid concern, but the alternative is to put the "I don't know where to put this item" somewhere that is not really appropriate.

We did actually have a "Tools" menu very briefly, but it was removed because Nyquist Workbench was the only item that was (optionally) in it (and we were still trying to work to an 800 px width at the time).

Steve

 

--James.







On 4/25/2017 11:41 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]
wrote:

      
On 25 April 2017 at 02:56, Gale Andrews [hidden email] wrote:

+1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.

Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?

I agree that it does not really belong in the Effect menu, but also:

* "Regular Interval Labels" does not belong in the "Analyze" menu.
* Robert's "Nyquist Helper" (not shipped) does not belong in the
"Generate" menu. It should ideally be in the "Help" menu, but we can't
currently do that with Nyquist plug-ins.
* My "Quick Conversion Calculator" (not shipped) does not belong in the
"Generate" menu.
* "Screenshot Tools" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Run Benchmark" would perhaps fit better in "Help > Diagnostics", but
the "Sceenshot Tools" is on its own in "Help > Tools".
* "Check Dependencies" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Mixer Board" are not a good fit in the "View" menu (most DAWs list
their mixer in a "Window" menu).
* "Karaoke", similar to "Mixer Board" case.
* "Nyquist Workbench", similar to "Mixer Board" case.

Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

A further reorganization as proposed here would put an additional strain on
documentation effort.

I'm struggling right now with the existing 2.2.0 changes - it is proving to
be a mammoth task.

The problem lies not in the documentation of the commands and menu
structures themselves,
bur rather with the numerous links to these commands that we liberally
sprinkle throughout
the Manual.

This is not a reason not to do this, but just warning on the impact that it
would have on the Manual
editorial work (which would be P1 and thus a potential blocker).

Cheers,
Peter.



Steve



Gale

On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson [hidden email] wrote:
+1.

And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when
there are
no tracks.

- V

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <
[hidden email]>
wrote:
The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in",
so
it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.

Steve


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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
> loaded from a file.
>
> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>
> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
> not in the default sorting?

If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
its own file.

I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
Nyquist effects, but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
Check Dependencies.

Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?



Gale


> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>
>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> +1.
>>>
>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>> no tracks.
>>>
>>> - V
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Vaughan Johnson-4
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:06 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 25 April 2017 at 11:41, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 25 April 2017 at 02:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.

Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?


I agree that it does not really belong in the Effect menu, but also:

* "Regular Interval Labels" does not belong in the "Analyze" menu.
* Robert's "Nyquist Helper" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu. It should ideally be in the "Help" menu, but we can't currently do that with Nyquist plug-ins.
* My "Quick Conversion Calculator" (not shipped) does not belong in the "Generate" menu.
* "Screenshot Tools" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Run Benchmark" would perhaps fit better in "Help > Diagnostics", but the "Sceenshot Tools" is on its own in "Help > Tools".
* "Check Dependencies" is not a good fit in the "Help" menu.
* "Mixer Board" are not a good fit in the "View" menu (most DAWs list their mixer in a "Window" menu).
* "Karaoke", similar to "Mixer Board" case.
* "Nyquist Workbench", similar to "Mixer Board" case.

Could we not have another top level menu for these tools / utilities?

A further reorganization as proposed here would put an additional strain on documentation effort.

I'm struggling right now with the existing 2.2.0 changes - it is proving to be a mammoth task.

The problem lies not in the documentation of the commands and menu structures themselves,
bur rather with the numerous links to these commands that we liberally sprinkle throughout
the Manual.

This is not a reason not to do this, but just warning on the impact that it would have on the Manual
editorial work (which would be P1 and thus a potential blocker).

From previous discussions, I don't think anyone wants a big menu reorganization now and then another reorganization later.

+1.

-- V

 
Also, we don't yet have a scheduled release date.

I think it's important that we sort out the menus now, because, other than perhaps minor tweaks, we're likely to be living with them for some time to come. Better that we spend the time now to get it as right as we can, than regret not doing it differently.

Putting the Nyquist Prompt in with the Nyquist plug-ins, is for me, (much) "worse than before". Also, I don't think it's "right" for the reasons I've given.

Steve


 

Cheers,
Peter.

 

Steve

 


Gale

On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> +1.
>
> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
> no tracks.
>
> - V
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 25 April 2017 at 17:37, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
>> loaded from a file.
>>
>> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
>> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
>> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>>
>> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
>> not in the default sorting?
>
> If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
> second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
> Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
> its own file.

I agree that would be better than putting the Nyquist Prompt in with
the Nyquist plug-ins.

>
> I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
> effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
> Nyquist effects,

but we currently have "generate effects" in the Generate menu,
"process effects" in the Effect menu, "analyze effects" in the Analyze
menu and "tool/utility effects" in either the Generate, Effect or
Analyze menu, for no good reason other than there is nowhere else to
put them.

> but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
> they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
> Check Dependencies.

Is it as odd as having "Regular Interval Labels" in the same menu as
Contrast and Plot Spectrum, and having a "Conversion calculator"
(provides useful audio related conversions, such as dB to linear, and
MIDI note to Hz) in the same menu as the Noise and Tone generators?

>
> Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?

That doesn't solve the problem because Analyze effects also require a
selection (which is logical, because you need something to analyze).

Steve

>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>>
>>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> +1.
>>>>
>>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>>> no tracks.
>>>>
>>>> - V
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Gale
Administrator
On 27 April 2017 at 01:33, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 April 2017 at 17:37, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
>>> loaded from a file.
>>>
>>> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
>>> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
>>> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>>>
>>> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
>>> not in the default sorting?
>>
>> If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
>> second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
>> Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
>> its own file.
>
> I agree that would be better than putting the Nyquist Prompt in with
> the Nyquist plug-ins.
>
>>
>> I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
>> effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
>> Nyquist effects,
>
> but we currently have "generate effects" in the Generate menu,
> "process effects" in the Effect menu, "analyze effects" in the Analyze
> menu and "tool/utility effects" in either the Generate, Effect or
> Analyze menu, for no good reason other than there is nowhere else to
> put them.
>
>> but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
>> they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
>> Check Dependencies.
>
> Is it as odd as having "Regular Interval Labels" in the same menu as
> Contrast and Plot Spectrum

I don't think that is odd. They all require a selection.


> having a "Conversion calculator" (provides useful audio related conversions,
> such as dB to linear, and MIDI note to Hz) in the same menu as the Noise
> and Tone generators?

That looks a little odd to me.

You say we can't put Nyquist plugins in Help, so are you sure we can
put them in a new Tools menu which contains more than effects?

ATM I feel more positive towards a new Tools menu only for Nyquist
Utility effects that don't require a selection, than I do towards a new
Tools menu with a mish mash in it. I don't see Karaoke or Mixer Board
belong there.

Should we ship your calculator to give us something to put in such a
menu? Are there any two other Nyquist utilities worth considering?
Should the existing Sample Data Import be in such a Tools menu?


Gale



>> Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?
>
> That doesn't solve the problem because Analyze effects also require a
> selection (which is logical, because you need something to analyze).
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>>>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>>>
>>>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>>>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>>>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>>>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> +1.
>>>>>
>>>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>>>> no tracks.
>>>>>
>>>>> - V
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
On 27 April 2017 at 02:41, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27 April 2017 at 01:33, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 25 April 2017 at 17:37, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
>>>> loaded from a file.
>>>>
>>>> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
>>>> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
>>>> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>>>>
>>>> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
>>>> not in the default sorting?
>>>
>>> If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
>>> second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
>>> Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
>>> its own file.
>>
>> I agree that would be better than putting the Nyquist Prompt in with
>> the Nyquist plug-ins.
>>
>>>
>>> I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
>>> effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
>>> Nyquist effects,
>>
>> but we currently have "generate effects" in the Generate menu,
>> "process effects" in the Effect menu, "analyze effects" in the Analyze
>> menu and "tool/utility effects" in either the Generate, Effect or
>> Analyze menu, for no good reason other than there is nowhere else to
>> put them.
>>
>>> but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
>>> they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
>>> Check Dependencies.
>>
>> Is it as odd as having "Regular Interval Labels" in the same menu as
>> Contrast and Plot Spectrum
>
> I don't think that is odd.

I think the only reason it doesn't look extremely odd, is familiarity
(it's been there 'forever').

Contrast: Analyzes the RMS dynamics.
Plot Spectrum: Analyzes the frequency content.
Find Clipping: Analyzes the audio to find possible peaks.
ACX Check: Analyzes the audio against ACX standards.
Beat Finder: Analyzes music to locate beats.
Sample Data Export: Analyzes the audio selection as sample values.
Silence Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark silences.
Sound Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark sounds.

Regular Interval Labels: Analyzes absolutely nothing!

> They all require a selection.

So do process effects and edit commands, but I'm sure that you agree
that they do not belong in the Analyze menu.


>
>
>> having a "Conversion calculator" (provides useful audio related conversions,
>> such as dB to linear, and MIDI note to Hz) in the same menu as the Noise
>> and Tone generators?
>
> That looks a little odd to me.
>
> You say we can't put Nyquist plugins in Help, so are you sure we can
> put them in a new Tools menu which contains more than effects?

We can't put them in a Tools menu at the moment because there is no
"Tools" type effect, hence no "Tools" menu.

We currently have "process", "generate" and "analyze" effect types,
which are listed in "Effect", "Generate" and "Analyze" menus
respectively. "Tools" would need to be defined as a new "effect type",
which would then go into a "Tools" menu.

We could also define a "help" type effect, which would go into the
Help menu, though I only know of one effect that would go there, so it
seems a poor roi atm (and could be added any time as it does not
require visible changes to the menu layout).

>
> ATM I feel more positive towards a new Tools menu only for Nyquist
> Utility effects that don't require a selection, than I do towards a new
> Tools menu with a mish mash in it. I don't see Karaoke or Mixer Board
> belong there.
>
> Should we ship your calculator to give us something to put in such a
> menu? Are there any two other Nyquist utilities worth considering?
> Should the existing Sample Data Import be in such a Tools menu?

I think "Bars and Beat Labels" (or whatever I called it), would be a
useful addition.

At some point we may also need a menu for MIDI specific functions.

Steve

>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
>>> Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?
>>
>> That doesn't solve the problem because Analyze effects also require a
>> selection (which is logical, because you need something to analyze).
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>>>>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>>>>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>>>>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>>>>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>>>>> no tracks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

James Crook
We could adopt this convention:

Effects are functions which take wave in (only) and return wave out (only).
Generators are functions which don't take wave in and that return wave
out (only).
Analyze are all other functions that we want in one of these three menus.


Other possible conventions allow generators to generate labels and midi
tracks, rather than pushing these to the 'catch the remainder' Analyze
menu.  We might indeed want a midi-effects menu for functions which take
midi (only) and return midi (only).

--James.


On 4/27/2017 11:05 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:

> On 27 April 2017 at 02:41, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 27 April 2017 at 01:33, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 25 April 2017 at 17:37, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
>>>>> loaded from a file.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
>>>>> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
>>>>> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>>>>>
>>>>> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
>>>>> not in the default sorting?
>>>> If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
>>>> second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
>>>> Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
>>>> its own file.
>>> I agree that would be better than putting the Nyquist Prompt in with
>>> the Nyquist plug-ins.
>>>
>>>> I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
>>>> effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
>>>> Nyquist effects,
>>> but we currently have "generate effects" in the Generate menu,
>>> "process effects" in the Effect menu, "analyze effects" in the Analyze
>>> menu and "tool/utility effects" in either the Generate, Effect or
>>> Analyze menu, for no good reason other than there is nowhere else to
>>> put them.
>>>
>>>> but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
>>>> they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
>>>> Check Dependencies.
>>> Is it as odd as having "Regular Interval Labels" in the same menu as
>>> Contrast and Plot Spectrum
>> I don't think that is odd.
> I think the only reason it doesn't look extremely odd, is familiarity
> (it's been there 'forever').
>
> Contrast: Analyzes the RMS dynamics.
> Plot Spectrum: Analyzes the frequency content.
> Find Clipping: Analyzes the audio to find possible peaks.
> ACX Check: Analyzes the audio against ACX standards.
> Beat Finder: Analyzes music to locate beats.
> Sample Data Export: Analyzes the audio selection as sample values.
> Silence Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark silences.
> Sound Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark sounds.
>
> Regular Interval Labels: Analyzes absolutely nothing!
>
>> They all require a selection.
> So do process effects and edit commands, but I'm sure that you agree
> that they do not belong in the Analyze menu.
>
>
>>
>>> having a "Conversion calculator" (provides useful audio related conversions,
>>> such as dB to linear, and MIDI note to Hz) in the same menu as the Noise
>>> and Tone generators?
>> That looks a little odd to me.
>>
>> You say we can't put Nyquist plugins in Help, so are you sure we can
>> put them in a new Tools menu which contains more than effects?
> We can't put them in a Tools menu at the moment because there is no
> "Tools" type effect, hence no "Tools" menu.
>
> We currently have "process", "generate" and "analyze" effect types,
> which are listed in "Effect", "Generate" and "Analyze" menus
> respectively. "Tools" would need to be defined as a new "effect type",
> which would then go into a "Tools" menu.
>
> We could also define a "help" type effect, which would go into the
> Help menu, though I only know of one effect that would go there, so it
> seems a poor roi atm (and could be added any time as it does not
> require visible changes to the menu layout).
>
>> ATM I feel more positive towards a new Tools menu only for Nyquist
>> Utility effects that don't require a selection, than I do towards a new
>> Tools menu with a mish mash in it. I don't see Karaoke or Mixer Board
>> belong there.
>>
>> Should we ship your calculator to give us something to put in such a
>> menu? Are there any two other Nyquist utilities worth considering?
>> Should the existing Sample Data Import be in such a Tools menu?
> I think "Bars and Beat Labels" (or whatever I called it), would be a
> useful addition.
>
> At some point we may also need a menu for MIDI specific functions.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?
>>> That doesn't solve the problem because Analyze effects also require a
>>> selection (which is logical, because you need something to analyze).
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>>>>>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>>>>>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>>>>>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>>>>>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>>>>>> no tracks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>>>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
On 27 April 2017 at 12:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We could adopt this convention:
>
> Effects are functions which take wave in (only) and return wave out (only).
> Generators are functions which don't take wave in and that return wave
> out (only).

That sounds logical for Effects (process type effects) and Generators
(generate type effects).

> Analyze are all other functions that we want in one of these three menus.

Rather than making "Analyze" a catch-all that includes things that
clearly do not "analyze", shouldn't we follow the same pattern as for
the other effect types:

* Effects take audio input and return audio output.
* Generators don't take audio input and return audio output.
* Analyzers take audio input and don't return audio output.
* Tools don't take audio input and don't return audio output.

and later:
* MIDI effects take MIDI input and/or return MIDI output.
and question for later: What about effects that take MIDI input and
return audio output, or vice verse?

We need to consider both input and output, because we need to
initialize the effect correctly before we can launch the effect, or we
need to make substantial changes to the Effect base class.


---

Another candidate for a Tools / Utilities menu could be the Chain Editor.
(Eventually I'd like to see "Apply Chains" replaced by named "macro
effects", which could be any 'type' of effects, and would appear in
the relevant menu).

Steve

> Other possible conventions allow generators to generate labels and midi
> tracks, rather than pushing these to the 'catch the remainder' Analyze
> menu.  We might indeed want a midi-effects menu for functions which take
> midi (only) and return midi (only).
>
> --James.
>
>
> On 4/27/2017 11:05 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>> On 27 April 2017 at 02:41, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 27 April 2017 at 01:33, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 17:37, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
>>>>>> loaded from a file.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
>>>>>> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
>>>>>> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
>>>>>> not in the default sorting?
>>>>> If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
>>>>> second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
>>>>> Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
>>>>> its own file.
>>>> I agree that would be better than putting the Nyquist Prompt in with
>>>> the Nyquist plug-ins.
>>>>
>>>>> I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
>>>>> effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
>>>>> Nyquist effects,
>>>> but we currently have "generate effects" in the Generate menu,
>>>> "process effects" in the Effect menu, "analyze effects" in the Analyze
>>>> menu and "tool/utility effects" in either the Generate, Effect or
>>>> Analyze menu, for no good reason other than there is nowhere else to
>>>> put them.
>>>>
>>>>> but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
>>>>> they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
>>>>> Check Dependencies.
>>>> Is it as odd as having "Regular Interval Labels" in the same menu as
>>>> Contrast and Plot Spectrum
>>> I don't think that is odd.
>> I think the only reason it doesn't look extremely odd, is familiarity
>> (it's been there 'forever').
>>
>> Contrast: Analyzes the RMS dynamics.
>> Plot Spectrum: Analyzes the frequency content.
>> Find Clipping: Analyzes the audio to find possible peaks.
>> ACX Check: Analyzes the audio against ACX standards.
>> Beat Finder: Analyzes music to locate beats.
>> Sample Data Export: Analyzes the audio selection as sample values.
>> Silence Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark silences.
>> Sound Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark sounds.
>>
>> Regular Interval Labels: Analyzes absolutely nothing!
>>
>>> They all require a selection.
>> So do process effects and edit commands, but I'm sure that you agree
>> that they do not belong in the Analyze menu.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> having a "Conversion calculator" (provides useful audio related conversions,
>>>> such as dB to linear, and MIDI note to Hz) in the same menu as the Noise
>>>> and Tone generators?
>>> That looks a little odd to me.
>>>
>>> You say we can't put Nyquist plugins in Help, so are you sure we can
>>> put them in a new Tools menu which contains more than effects?
>> We can't put them in a Tools menu at the moment because there is no
>> "Tools" type effect, hence no "Tools" menu.
>>
>> We currently have "process", "generate" and "analyze" effect types,
>> which are listed in "Effect", "Generate" and "Analyze" menus
>> respectively. "Tools" would need to be defined as a new "effect type",
>> which would then go into a "Tools" menu.
>>
>> We could also define a "help" type effect, which would go into the
>> Help menu, though I only know of one effect that would go there, so it
>> seems a poor roi atm (and could be added any time as it does not
>> require visible changes to the menu layout).
>>
>>> ATM I feel more positive towards a new Tools menu only for Nyquist
>>> Utility effects that don't require a selection, than I do towards a new
>>> Tools menu with a mish mash in it. I don't see Karaoke or Mixer Board
>>> belong there.
>>>
>>> Should we ship your calculator to give us something to put in such a
>>> menu? Are there any two other Nyquist utilities worth considering?
>>> Should the existing Sample Data Import be in such a Tools menu?
>> I think "Bars and Beat Labels" (or whatever I called it), would be a
>> useful addition.
>>
>> At some point we may also need a menu for MIDI specific functions.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?
>>>> That doesn't solve the problem because Analyze effects also require a
>>>> selection (which is logical, because you need something to analyze).
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>>>>>>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>>>>>>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>>>>>>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>>>>>>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>>>>>>> no tracks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>>>>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

James Crook

Yes that's logical too.
I think we still want to restrict those tools to taking input(s) from
track(s), otherwise 'Tools' becomes a catch all for everything.  Maybe
call it 'Track Tools' just to be clearer, or some other better name.

Tools makes sense as a new menu in that family, in my opinion, if there
are enough things in both it and analyze after any shuffling about.

--James.

On 4/27/2017 1:34 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:

> On 27 April 2017 at 12:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> We could adopt this convention:
>>
>> Effects are functions which take wave in (only) and return wave out (only).
>> Generators are functions which don't take wave in and that return wave
>> out (only).
> That sounds logical for Effects (process type effects) and Generators
> (generate type effects).
>
>> Analyze are all other functions that we want in one of these three menus.
> Rather than making "Analyze" a catch-all that includes things that
> clearly do not "analyze", shouldn't we follow the same pattern as for
> the other effect types:
>
> * Effects take audio input and return audio output.
> * Generators don't take audio input and return audio output.
> * Analyzers take audio input and don't return audio output.
> * Tools don't take audio input and don't return audio output.
>
> and later:
> * MIDI effects take MIDI input and/or return MIDI output.
> and question for later: What about effects that take MIDI input and
> return audio output, or vice verse?
>
> We need to consider both input and output, because we need to
> initialize the effect correctly before we can launch the effect, or we
> need to make substantial changes to the Effect base class.
>
>
> ---
>
> Another candidate for a Tools / Utilities menu could be the Chain Editor.
> (Eventually I'd like to see "Apply Chains" replaced by named "macro
> effects", which could be any 'type' of effects, and would appear in
> the relevant menu).
>
> Steve
>
>> Other possible conventions allow generators to generate labels and midi
>> tracks, rather than pushing these to the 'catch the remainder' Analyze
>> menu.  We might indeed want a midi-effects menu for functions which take
>> midi (only) and return midi (only).
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>> On 4/27/2017 11:05 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>> On 27 April 2017 at 02:41, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 27 April 2017 at 01:33, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 17:37, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
>>>>>>> loaded from a file.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
>>>>>>> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
>>>>>>> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
>>>>>>> not in the default sorting?
>>>>>> If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
>>>>>> second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
>>>>>> Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
>>>>>> its own file.
>>>>> I agree that would be better than putting the Nyquist Prompt in with
>>>>> the Nyquist plug-ins.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
>>>>>> effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
>>>>>> Nyquist effects,
>>>>> but we currently have "generate effects" in the Generate menu,
>>>>> "process effects" in the Effect menu, "analyze effects" in the Analyze
>>>>> menu and "tool/utility effects" in either the Generate, Effect or
>>>>> Analyze menu, for no good reason other than there is nowhere else to
>>>>> put them.
>>>>>
>>>>>> but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
>>>>>> they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
>>>>>> Check Dependencies.
>>>>> Is it as odd as having "Regular Interval Labels" in the same menu as
>>>>> Contrast and Plot Spectrum
>>>> I don't think that is odd.
>>> I think the only reason it doesn't look extremely odd, is familiarity
>>> (it's been there 'forever').
>>>
>>> Contrast: Analyzes the RMS dynamics.
>>> Plot Spectrum: Analyzes the frequency content.
>>> Find Clipping: Analyzes the audio to find possible peaks.
>>> ACX Check: Analyzes the audio against ACX standards.
>>> Beat Finder: Analyzes music to locate beats.
>>> Sample Data Export: Analyzes the audio selection as sample values.
>>> Silence Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark silences.
>>> Sound Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark sounds.
>>>
>>> Regular Interval Labels: Analyzes absolutely nothing!
>>>
>>>> They all require a selection.
>>> So do process effects and edit commands, but I'm sure that you agree
>>> that they do not belong in the Analyze menu.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> having a "Conversion calculator" (provides useful audio related conversions,
>>>>> such as dB to linear, and MIDI note to Hz) in the same menu as the Noise
>>>>> and Tone generators?
>>>> That looks a little odd to me.
>>>>
>>>> You say we can't put Nyquist plugins in Help, so are you sure we can
>>>> put them in a new Tools menu which contains more than effects?
>>> We can't put them in a Tools menu at the moment because there is no
>>> "Tools" type effect, hence no "Tools" menu.
>>>
>>> We currently have "process", "generate" and "analyze" effect types,
>>> which are listed in "Effect", "Generate" and "Analyze" menus
>>> respectively. "Tools" would need to be defined as a new "effect type",
>>> which would then go into a "Tools" menu.
>>>
>>> We could also define a "help" type effect, which would go into the
>>> Help menu, though I only know of one effect that would go there, so it
>>> seems a poor roi atm (and could be added any time as it does not
>>> require visible changes to the menu layout).
>>>
>>>> ATM I feel more positive towards a new Tools menu only for Nyquist
>>>> Utility effects that don't require a selection, than I do towards a new
>>>> Tools menu with a mish mash in it. I don't see Karaoke or Mixer Board
>>>> belong there.
>>>>
>>>> Should we ship your calculator to give us something to put in such a
>>>> menu? Are there any two other Nyquist utilities worth considering?
>>>> Should the existing Sample Data Import be in such a Tools menu?
>>> I think "Bars and Beat Labels" (or whatever I called it), would be a
>>> useful addition.
>>>
>>> At some point we may also need a menu for MIDI specific functions.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?
>>>>> That doesn't solve the problem because Analyze effects also require a
>>>>> selection (which is logical, because you need something to analyze).
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>>>>>>>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>>>>>>>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>>>>>>>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>>>>>>>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>>>>>>>> no tracks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>>>>>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect

Stevethefiddle
On 27 April 2017 at 13:44, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes that's logical too.
> I think we still want to restrict those tools to taking input(s) from
> track(s), otherwise 'Tools' becomes a catch all for everything.

Well that's my complaint about using the Analyze menu as a catch-all.
Tools wouldn't be a catch-all for "everything" because most effects
are quite clearly process, generate or analyze type effects, so there
is a logical, appropriate menu in which to list them.

What would you call a tool that does not process audio, does not
analyze audio and does not generate audio? For sake of a better word,
I'm suggesting that we call it a "tool" or "utility".  In that sense,
it does become a catch-all for tools that are not audio processors,
analyzers or generators, but isn't that much better than calling it
something that it clearly isn't.

On of the axioms from day one, was to design the interface so that
users could intuitively find their way around it. Putting a tool that
does not analyze, into the Analyze menu, is counter to that, as is
putting a tool that does not generate into the Generate menu.

Steve

> Maybe
> call it 'Track Tools' just to be clearer, or some other better name.
>
> Tools makes sense as a new menu in that family, in my opinion, if there
> are enough things in both it and analyze after any shuffling about.
>
> --James.
>
> On 4/27/2017 1:34 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>> On 27 April 2017 at 12:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> We could adopt this convention:
>>>
>>> Effects are functions which take wave in (only) and return wave out (only).
>>> Generators are functions which don't take wave in and that return wave
>>> out (only).
>> That sounds logical for Effects (process type effects) and Generators
>> (generate type effects).
>>
>>> Analyze are all other functions that we want in one of these three menus.
>> Rather than making "Analyze" a catch-all that includes things that
>> clearly do not "analyze", shouldn't we follow the same pattern as for
>> the other effect types:
>>
>> * Effects take audio input and return audio output.
>> * Generators don't take audio input and return audio output.
>> * Analyzers take audio input and don't return audio output.
>> * Tools don't take audio input and don't return audio output.
>>
>> and later:
>> * MIDI effects take MIDI input and/or return MIDI output.
>> and question for later: What about effects that take MIDI input and
>> return audio output, or vice verse?
>>
>> We need to consider both input and output, because we need to
>> initialize the effect correctly before we can launch the effect, or we
>> need to make substantial changes to the Effect base class.
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Another candidate for a Tools / Utilities menu could be the Chain Editor.
>> (Eventually I'd like to see "Apply Chains" replaced by named "macro
>> effects", which could be any 'type' of effects, and would appear in
>> the relevant menu).
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>> Other possible conventions allow generators to generate labels and midi
>>> tracks, rather than pushing these to the 'catch the remainder' Analyze
>>> menu.  We might indeed want a midi-effects menu for functions which take
>>> midi (only) and return midi (only).
>>>
>>> --James.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/27/2017 11:05 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>> On 27 April 2017 at 02:41, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On 27 April 2017 at 01:33, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 17:37, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 09:26, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Well, the actual nyquist you run from the prompt IS a plug-in, e.g.
>>>>>>>> loaded from a file.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having nyquist-prompt with the other nyquist effects makes a lot more
>>>>>>>> sense when sorting effects by type.  Otherwise it is all out there on
>>>>>>>> its owney own and looks rather strange to have nyquist twice in the types.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about it does things the way I have it now when sorting by type, but
>>>>>>>> not in the default sorting?
>>>>>>> If the driver for this change was Nyquist Prompt on its own in a
>>>>>>> second "Nyquist" group, why not just move it to the Audacity
>>>>>>> Group? It is a built-in item, but in no way a shipped plug-in with
>>>>>>> its own file.
>>>>>> I agree that would be better than putting the Nyquist Prompt in with
>>>>>> the Nyquist plug-ins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think I'm about -0.5 on a Tools Menu too. Non-shipped Nyquist
>>>>>>> effects that don't fit neatly into Generate/Effect/Analyze are still
>>>>>>> Nyquist effects,
>>>>>> but we currently have "generate effects" in the Generate menu,
>>>>>> "process effects" in the Effect menu, "analyze effects" in the Analyze
>>>>>> menu and "tool/utility effects" in either the Generate, Effect or
>>>>>> Analyze menu, for no good reason other than there is nowhere else to
>>>>>> put them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but there is no appropriate type for them. I think
>>>>>>> they would look odd in the same menu as Screenshot Tools and
>>>>>>> Check Dependencies.
>>>>>> Is it as odd as having "Regular Interval Labels" in the same menu as
>>>>>> Contrast and Plot Spectrum
>>>>> I don't think that is odd.
>>>> I think the only reason it doesn't look extremely odd, is familiarity
>>>> (it's been there 'forever').
>>>>
>>>> Contrast: Analyzes the RMS dynamics.
>>>> Plot Spectrum: Analyzes the frequency content.
>>>> Find Clipping: Analyzes the audio to find possible peaks.
>>>> ACX Check: Analyzes the audio against ACX standards.
>>>> Beat Finder: Analyzes music to locate beats.
>>>> Sample Data Export: Analyzes the audio selection as sample values.
>>>> Silence Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark silences.
>>>> Sound Finder: Analyzes the audio to locate and mark sounds.
>>>>
>>>> Regular Interval Labels: Analyzes absolutely nothing!
>>>>
>>>>> They all require a selection.
>>>> So do process effects and edit commands, but I'm sure that you agree
>>>> that they do not belong in the Analyze menu.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> having a "Conversion calculator" (provides useful audio related conversions,
>>>>>> such as dB to linear, and MIDI note to Hz) in the same menu as the Noise
>>>>>> and Tone generators?
>>>>> That looks a little odd to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> You say we can't put Nyquist plugins in Help, so are you sure we can
>>>>> put them in a new Tools menu which contains more than effects?
>>>> We can't put them in a Tools menu at the moment because there is no
>>>> "Tools" type effect, hence no "Tools" menu.
>>>>
>>>> We currently have "process", "generate" and "analyze" effect types,
>>>> which are listed in "Effect", "Generate" and "Analyze" menus
>>>> respectively. "Tools" would need to be defined as a new "effect type",
>>>> which would then go into a "Tools" menu.
>>>>
>>>> We could also define a "help" type effect, which would go into the
>>>> Help menu, though I only know of one effect that would go there, so it
>>>> seems a poor roi atm (and could be added any time as it does not
>>>> require visible changes to the menu layout).
>>>>
>>>>> ATM I feel more positive towards a new Tools menu only for Nyquist
>>>>> Utility effects that don't require a selection, than I do towards a new
>>>>> Tools menu with a mish mash in it. I don't see Karaoke or Mixer Board
>>>>> belong there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Should we ship your calculator to give us something to put in such a
>>>>> menu? Are there any two other Nyquist utilities worth considering?
>>>>> Should the existing Sample Data Import be in such a Tools menu?
>>>> I think "Bars and Beat Labels" (or whatever I called it), would be a
>>>> useful addition.
>>>>
>>>> At some point we may also need a menu for MIDI specific functions.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would it be better to rename "Analyze" to "Utility"?
>>>>>> That doesn't solve the problem because Analyze effects also require a
>>>>>> selection (which is logical, because you need something to analyze).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/25/2017 2:56 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>> +1 on balance, for Steve's reason and because with default effect
>>>>>>>>> sort by name, it could get lost in a pile of VST or Audio Unit effects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Really it does not belong in the Effect menu either, and it might even
>>>>>>>>> be confusing to enable it with no tracks as if it was a real-time
>>>>>>>>> preview effect. It's a script utility, so perhaps faute de mieux it could
>>>>>>>>> go in View Menu like Nyquist Workbench?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 25 April 2017 at 02:20, Vaughan Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And it has Generator capability, so it should be enabled even when there are
>>>>>>>>>> no tracks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - V
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The Nyquist Prompt is a built-in effect. It's not a "Nyquist plug-in", so
>>>>>>>>>>> it should be listed with the built-in effects, not in the plug-ins.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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