Overdub off by default

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Overdub off by default

Gale
Administrator
James wrote

> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7

> "Overdub off by default.

> Confused many new users in the past"

Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?

Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.


> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.

Can normal users do so?


Gale





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Re: Overdub off by default

Peter Sampson-2
I'm with James here.

It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
do overdubbing.

I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were confused/puzzled
as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it again
faintly through the mic as they made the second track).

We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and inexperienced
users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes and LPs (and
I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right setting - either
for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum as I did ten years
ago - and some still do).

I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do similar by
experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).

Peter.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
James wrote

> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7

> "Overdub off by default.

> Confused many new users in the past"

Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?

Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.


> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.

Can normal users do so?


Gale





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Re: Overdub off by default

Bill Wharrie

On 2017/06/26, at 11:34 AM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm with James here.
It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
do overdubbing.

Agreed.


I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were confused/puzzled
as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it again
faintly through the mic as they made the second track).

We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and inexperienced
users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes and LPs (and
I was one of those). 

Why is Software Playthrough off by default? If you want to hear your LP or cassette while you’re recording it, this needs to be on. If the argument is that more users want overdub off, then it would seem that the same cohort would want software playthrough on.

— Bill


We expect such users to be able to find the right setting - either
for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum as I did ten years
ago - and some still do).

I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do similar by
experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).

Peter.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
James wrote

> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7

> "Overdub off by default.

> Confused many new users in the past"

Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?

Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.


> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.

Can normal users do so?


Gale





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Re: Overdub off by default

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2


On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm with James here.

It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
do overdubbing.

I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were confused/puzzled
as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it again
faintly through the mic as they made the second track).

but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should probably be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over a backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by accident"?
 

We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and inexperienced
users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes and LPs (and
I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right setting - either
for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum as I did ten years
ago - and some still do).

There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and "Software Playthrough" is a bad combination.

Steve
 

I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do similar by
experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).

Peter.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
James wrote

> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7

> "Overdub off by default.

> Confused many new users in the past"

Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?

Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.


> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.

Can normal users do so?


Gale





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Re: Overdub off by default

James Crook
On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:

> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm with James here.
>>
>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
>> do overdubbing.
>>
>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>> confused/puzzled
>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it
>> again
>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>
> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.

That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.

So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with
overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.

We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.


> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user
> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should probably
> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over a
> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by accident"?
>
>
>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>> inexperienced
>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes
>> and LPs (and
>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
>> setting - either
>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum
>> as I did ten years
>> ago - and some still do).
>>
> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and "Software
> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
Suggestions for dealing with that better?

I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows

With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it
when it has progressed somewhat?

--James.


>
> Steve
>
>
>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
>> similar by
>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> James wrote
>>>
>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>>
>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>

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Re: Overdub off by default

Stevethefiddle


On 26 June 2017 at 19:21, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
wrote:

I'm with James here.

It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
do overdubbing.

I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
confused/puzzled
as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it
again
faintly through the mic as they made the second track).

but that was when "record to new track" was the default.

That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.

So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.

We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.


Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user
actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should probably
be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over a
backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by accident"?


We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
inexperienced
users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes
and LPs (and
I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
setting - either
for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum
as I did ten years
ago - and some still do).

There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
"Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and "Software
Playthrough" is a bad combination.
Suggestions for dealing with that better?

I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows

With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when it has progressed somewhat?

Sure, no problem.
Steve
 

--James.




Steve


I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
similar by
experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).

Peter.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
wrote:

James wrote

https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
"Overdub off by default.
Confused many new users in the past"
Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?

Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.


Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
Can normal users do so?


Gale


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Re: Overdub off by default

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by James Crook

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm with James here.
>>>
>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
>>> do overdubbing.
>>>
>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>> confused/puzzled
>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it
>>> again
>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>
>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>
> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>
> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>
> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>

I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is unexpected audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then I'll turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.

Just my 2 cents.

Cliff

>
>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user
>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should probably
>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over a
>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by accident"?
>>
>>
>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>> inexperienced
>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes
>>> and LPs (and
>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
>>> setting - either
>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum
>>> as I did ten years
>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>
>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and "Software
>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>
> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>
> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when it has progressed somewhat?
>
> --James.
>
>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
>>> similar by
>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>>>
>>> Peter.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> James wrote
>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>>>
>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>
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Re: Overdub off by default

James Crook
On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:

>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>>
>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>>
>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it
>>>> again
>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>>
>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>>
>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>
>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>
> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is unexpected audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then I'll turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>
> Just my 2 cents.

I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it
was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.


>
> Cliff
>
>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user
>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should probably
>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over a
>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by accident"?
>>>
>>>
>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>>> inexperienced
>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes
>>>> and LPs (and
>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
>>>> setting - either
>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum
>>>> as I did ten years
>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>>
>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and "Software
>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>
>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>
>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when it has progressed somewhat?
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
>>>> similar by
>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>>>>
>>>> Peter.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> James wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>>>>
>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale


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Re: Overdub off by default

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm with James here.
>
> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
> do overdubbing.
>
> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were confused/puzzled
> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it
> again
> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).

They are choosing the wrong recording device or making other fundamental
error if they record the backing track. Such error is likely to create
problems or
quality loss even if overdub was off by default.


Gale


> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
> inexperienced
> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes
> and LPs (and
> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
> setting - either
> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum as
> I did ten years
> ago - and some still do).
>
> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
> similar by
> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>
> Peter.
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> James wrote
>>
>> > https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>
>> > "Overdub off by default.
>>
>> > Confused many new users in the past"
>>
>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>
>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>
>>
>> > Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>> > menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>
>> Can normal users do so?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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Re: Overdub off by default

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 26 June 2017 at 19:21, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>
>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm with James here.
>>>
>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
>>> do overdubbing.
>>>
>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>> confused/puzzled
>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it
>>> again
>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>
>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>
>
> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>
> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with overdub
> ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>
> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.

I wish I could be clearer what "the issue" is.

>
>
>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user
>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should
>> probably
>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over a
>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>> accident"?
>>
>>
>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>> inexperienced
>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their
>>> tapes
>>> and LPs (and
>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
>>> setting - either
>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum
>>> as I did ten years
>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>
>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>> "Software
>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>
> Suggestions for dealing with that better?

We chose to remove the Preferences text that directly addressed that.

But I must disagree that Stereo Mix is "commonly the default on Windows".

The point I see is that it isn't the default (it's disabled by default on most
Windows 7+ systems if it exists at all).

Experienced users can go into the Windows Sound Control Panel and
enable stereo mix if available, but we have to point most users on
Windows 7 and later to WASAPI loopback.


Gale


> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>
> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when it
> has progressed somewhat?
>
> --James.
>
>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
>>> similar by
>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>>>
>>> Peter.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> James wrote
>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>
>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>>>
>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>
>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>
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Re: Overdub off by default

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by James Crook


On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
wrote:

I'm with James here.

It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted to
do overdubbing.

I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
confused/puzzled
as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording it
again
faintly through the mic as they made the second track).

but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.

So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.

We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.

I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is unexpected audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then I'll turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.

Just my 2 cents.

I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.

Well I think that is a darn great shame.

You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why you just doer-decides it.

Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you revert this without any further discussion.

So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale and Steve) against.

Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have a double vote here?


If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for the folk who want and
need overdub to turn it on when they need it?   We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to
be able to similarly discover Software Playtrhrough when they need it. 

And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably don't do overdub
recordings all the time ...

Peter
 




Cliff

Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user
actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should probably
be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over a
backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by accident"?


We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
inexperienced
users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their tapes
and LPs (and
I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
setting - either
for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the Forum
as I did ten years
ago - and some still do).

There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
"Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and "Software
Playthrough" is a bad combination.
Suggestions for dealing with that better?

I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows

With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when it has progressed somewhat?

--James.


Steve


I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
similar by
experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).

Peter.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
wrote:

James wrote

https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
"Overdub off by default.
Confused many new users in the past"
Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?

Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.


Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
Can normal users do so?


Gale


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Re: Overdub off by default

James Crook
On 6/26/2017 11:05 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> again
>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>>>>
>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with
>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>>>
>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>>>
>>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do
>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is unexpected
>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then I'll
>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>
>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it
>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>
> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>
> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why you
> just doer-decides it.
>
> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you revert
> this without any further discussion.
>
> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale and
> Steve) against.
>
> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have a
> double vote here?

If you think it is important enough, you can put it to a vote. Reading
Steve's response, I think the problem did used to matter, but now it is
minor.  I thought the best way of solving the problem was by Overdub
'off' by default, but still acceptable (to me) was to work on the
documentation, so that users better understand what the three different
types of play-through are.  That's what I have now done.

Arguing over one setting is simply way too costly in time for me. I'd
rather have a batch of changes to defaults, show they work well in DA,
and then see if Audacity will adopt them.  Where a new default isn't
simply accepted, it may indicate there is more work to do than just
changing that default.  For spectrograms the 256->1024 change to
defaults had wide consensus, but there was only muted approval for other
changes.  To me that suggests I need to show a compellingly 'better'
spectrogram which shows features significantly more clearly, and then
Audacity will be interested in adopting new spectrogram defaults.  That
entails more than just a change to the defaults themselves.

Arguably I am putting more weight on Gale and Steve's views than on
your+my+Cliff+Bill's.  That's only one way to look at it.  After Steve's
comment (about overdub being less of a problem now) I am more on the
fence about the change than I was when I made the change.  I don't think
a change to overdub default for 2.2.0 was in any sense urgent, and
waiting to see how users get on with 2.2.0 is OK (in my opinion).

> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for the folk who want and
> need overdub to turn it on when they need it?   We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to
> be able to similarly discover Software Playtrhrough when they need it.

> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably don't do overdub recordings all the time ...


>
> Peter
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Cliff
>>>
>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the user
>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should
>>>>> probably
>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over
>>>>> a
>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>>>> accident"?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>>>>> inexperienced
>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their
>>>>>> tapes
>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the right
>>>>>> setting - either
>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the
>>>>>> Forum
>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>>>> "Software
>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>>>>
>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>>>
>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_
>>>> Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>>>
>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when
>>>> it has progressed somewhat?
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
>>>>>> similar by
>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James wrote
>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that of
>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale

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Re: Overdub off by default

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 26 June 2017 at 23:05, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson
>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> again
>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>>>>
>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>>>
>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>>>>
>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with
>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>>>
>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>>>
>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do
>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is unexpected
>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then I'll
>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>
>>
>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it
>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>
>
> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>
> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why you
> just doer-decides it.

In my opinion we get way too many volte-face decisions out of the blue
with almost no discussion or explanation. No-one know whether they
are coming or going like that. Many get reverted so I see the moral that
we may be better to chat around them first.


> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you revert
> this without any further discussion.
>
> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale and
> Steve) against.
>
> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have a
> double vote here?
>
>
> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for the
> folk who want and need overdub to turn it on when they need it?

I would find it more intuitive to leave overdub on and mute the tracks
I don't want to hear.

I still can't think I have seen many who wanted to not play the first
track when recording. There are plenty who do want to overdub but
get tangled up re-recording the first track.


> We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to be able to similarly discover
> Software Playtrhrough when they need it.

True but as others have pointed out, perhaps that is the wrong
decision now. Questions on "how to listen to the tape or LP"
certainly outnumber those on how not to hear previous tracks
when recording.


> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably don't do
> overdub
> recordings all the time ...

I am figuring controls for playthrough and overdub could be better in the
interface for greater discoverability.  Perhaps in Device Toolbar, by the
playback device.


Gale

>>>
>>>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the
>>>>> user
>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should
>>>>> probably
>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over
>>>>> a
>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>>>> accident"?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>>>>> inexperienced
>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their
>>>>>> tapes
>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> setting - either
>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the
>>>>>> Forum
>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>>>>
>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>>>> "Software
>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>>>
>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>>>
>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>>>
>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>>>
>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when it
>>>> has progressed somewhat?
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
>>>>>> similar by
>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James wrote
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Overdub off by default

Stevethefiddle
As it says on our home page: "Audacity® is free, open source,
cross-platform audio software for multi-track recording and editing."

Audacity's "multi-track" capability has been a core feature and major
"selling point" for over a decade. While there have been many other
audio editors come and go, even open source audio editors, there have
been very few open source multi-track audio editors. We have
substantially watered down that feature by making "append record" the
default. Let's not forget the *many* users of Audacity that want to do
more than simply copy recordings from one format to another. Wanting
to overdub does not automatically make you an expert / advanced user.

Steve


On 27 June 2017 at 00:03, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 26 June 2017 at 23:05, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson
>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users wanted
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes recording
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with
>>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
>>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>>>>
>>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do
>>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is unexpected
>>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then I'll
>>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it
>>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>>
>>
>> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>>
>> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why you
>> just doer-decides it.
>
> In my opinion we get way too many volte-face decisions out of the blue
> with almost no discussion or explanation. No-one know whether they
> are coming or going like that. Many get reverted so I see the moral that
> we may be better to chat around them first.
>
>
>> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you revert
>> this without any further discussion.
>>
>> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale and
>> Steve) against.
>>
>> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have a
>> double vote here?
>>
>>
>> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for the
>> folk who want and need overdub to turn it on when they need it?
>
> I would find it more intuitive to leave overdub on and mute the tracks
> I don't want to hear.
>
> I still can't think I have seen many who wanted to not play the first
> track when recording. There are plenty who do want to overdub but
> get tangled up re-recording the first track.
>
>
>> We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to be able to similarly discover
>> Software Playtrhrough when they need it.
>
> True but as others have pointed out, perhaps that is the wrong
> decision now. Questions on "how to listen to the tape or LP"
> certainly outnumber those on how not to hear previous tracks
> when recording.
>
>
>> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably don't do
>> overdub
>> recordings all the time ...
>
> I am figuring controls for playthrough and overdub could be better in the
> interface for greater discoverability.  Perhaps in Device Toolbar, by the
> playback device.
>
>
> Gale
>
>>>>
>>>>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the
>>>>>> user
>>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should
>>>>>> probably
>>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing over
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>>>>> accident"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>>>>>> inexperienced
>>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their
>>>>>>> tapes
>>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the
>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>> setting - either
>>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the
>>>>>>> Forum
>>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>>>>> "Software
>>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>>>>
>>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>>>>
>>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>>>>
>>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
>>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it when it
>>>>> has progressed somewhat?
>>>>>
>>>>> --James.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to do
>>>>>>> similar by
>>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that too).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> James wrote
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording stalls?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about why
>>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>>
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Selection cursor on waveform in Hi Contrast

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Gale
Just did a build this evening and noticed that what I call the Selection Cursor on the waveform (the vertical line that one marks and then drags to create a selection) is invisible in the Hi Contrast theme except where it crosses the waveform. Makes it very hard to find. Could it be made the same color as the playback cursor so it is easily found?

Cliff
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Re: Overdub off by default

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
I'm with Steve here.
We are heading towards a single track editor.
I've got better software for that purpose installed.
Many hardware manufacturers that bundle Audacity offer only a very old
version. After the user has learnt to record e.g. an LP he might
discover that a new version is available. Of a sudden, he will see
that the defaults have changed.
This is nice for some of them but certainly not for all.

Overdub isn't harmful for line-in recordings.
It can be harmful for stereo-mix (e.g. recording YouTube) but we
shouldn't focus on that since it is from a legal point questionable
and direct download is secondly faster and of possible higher quality.
Overdub is also no problem for audio book creation since append record
is the default.
However, it will become essential for the latter in future when
features such as punch-in or roll-in or record to selection (with
arbitrary playback start) will be available.

Robert



On 27/06/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As it says on our home page: "Audacity® is free, open source,
> cross-platform audio software for multi-track recording and editing."
>
> Audacity's "multi-track" capability has been a core feature and major
> "selling point" for over a decade. While there have been many other
> audio editors come and go, even open source audio editors, there have
> been very few open source multi-track audio editors. We have
> substantially watered down that feature by making "append record" the
> default. Let's not forget the *many* users of Audacity that want to do
> more than simply copy recordings from one format to another. Wanting
> to overdub does not automatically make you an expert / advanced user.
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 27 June 2017 at 00:03, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 26 June 2017 at 23:05, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users
>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes
>>>>>>>> recording
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with
>>>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
>>>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do
>>>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is
>>>>> unexpected
>>>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then
>>>>> I'll
>>>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it
>>>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>>>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>>>
>>> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why you
>>> just doer-decides it.
>>
>> In my opinion we get way too many volte-face decisions out of the blue
>> with almost no discussion or explanation. No-one know whether they
>> are coming or going like that. Many get reverted so I see the moral that
>> we may be better to chat around them first.
>>
>>
>>> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you revert
>>> this without any further discussion.
>>>
>>> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale and
>>> Steve) against.
>>>
>>> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have a
>>> double vote here?
>>>
>>>
>>> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for the
>>> folk who want and need overdub to turn it on when they need it?
>>
>> I would find it more intuitive to leave overdub on and mute the tracks
>> I don't want to hear.
>>
>> I still can't think I have seen many who wanted to not play the first
>> track when recording. There are plenty who do want to overdub but
>> get tangled up re-recording the first track.
>>
>>
>>> We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to be able to similarly discover
>>> Software Playtrhrough when they need it.
>>
>> True but as others have pointed out, perhaps that is the wrong
>> decision now. Questions on "how to listen to the tape or LP"
>> certainly outnumber those on how not to hear previous tracks
>> when recording.
>>
>>
>>> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably don't
>>> do
>>> overdub
>>> recordings all the time ...
>>
>> I am figuring controls for playthrough and overdub could be better in the
>> interface for greater discoverability.  Perhaps in Device Toolbar, by the
>> playback device.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>>>>>> accident"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>>>>>>> inexperienced
>>>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their
>>>>>>>> tapes
>>>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>> setting - either
>>>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the
>>>>>>>> Forum
>>>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>>>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>>>>>> "Software
>>>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
>>>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it
>>>>>> when it
>>>>>> has progressed somewhat?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> similar by
>>>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that
>>>>>>>> too).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews
>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James wrote
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording
>>>>>>>>> stalls?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about
>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
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Re: Overdub off by default

David Bailes-3
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm with Steve here.
We are heading towards a single track editor.
I've got better software for that purpose installed.
Many hardware manufacturers that bundle Audacity offer only a very old
version. After the user has learnt to record e.g. an LP he might
discover that a new version is available. Of a sudden, he will see
that the defaults have changed.
This is nice for some of them but certainly not for all.

+1.

David.
 

Overdub isn't harmful for line-in recordings.
It can be harmful for stereo-mix (e.g. recording YouTube) but we
shouldn't focus on that since it is from a legal point questionable
and direct download is secondly faster and of possible higher quality.
Overdub is also no problem for audio book creation since append record
is the default.
However, it will become essential for the latter in future when
features such as punch-in or roll-in or record to selection (with
arbitrary playback start) will be available.

Robert



On 27/06/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As it says on our home page: "Audacity® is free, open source,
> cross-platform audio software for multi-track recording and editing."
>
> Audacity's "multi-track" capability has been a core feature and major
> "selling point" for over a decade. While there have been many other
> audio editors come and go, even open source audio editors, there have
> been very few open source multi-track audio editors. We have
> substantially watered down that feature by making "append record" the
> default. Let's not forget the *many* users of Audacity that want to do
> more than simply copy recordings from one format to another. Wanting
> to overdub does not automatically make you an expert / advanced user.
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 27 June 2017 at 00:03, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 26 June 2017 at 23:05, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users
>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes
>>>>>>>> recording
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with
>>>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
>>>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do
>>>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is
>>>>> unexpected
>>>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then
>>>>> I'll
>>>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it
>>>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>>>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>>>
>>> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why you
>>> just doer-decides it.
>>
>> In my opinion we get way too many volte-face decisions out of the blue
>> with almost no discussion or explanation. No-one know whether they
>> are coming or going like that. Many get reverted so I see the moral that
>> we may be better to chat around them first.
>>
>>
>>> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you revert
>>> this without any further discussion.
>>>
>>> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale and
>>> Steve) against.
>>>
>>> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have a
>>> double vote here?
>>>
>>>
>>> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for the
>>> folk who want and need overdub to turn it on when they need it?
>>
>> I would find it more intuitive to leave overdub on and mute the tracks
>> I don't want to hear.
>>
>> I still can't think I have seen many who wanted to not play the first
>> track when recording. There are plenty who do want to overdub but
>> get tangled up re-recording the first track.
>>
>>
>>> We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to be able to similarly discover
>>> Software Playtrhrough when they need it.
>>
>> True but as others have pointed out, perhaps that is the wrong
>> decision now. Questions on "how to listen to the tape or LP"
>> certainly outnumber those on how not to hear previous tracks
>> when recording.
>>
>>
>>> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably don't
>>> do
>>> overdub
>>> recordings all the time ...
>>
>> I am figuring controls for playthrough and overdub could be better in the
>> interface for greater discoverability.  Perhaps in Device Toolbar, by the
>> playback device.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>>>>>> accident"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>>>>>>> inexperienced
>>>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their
>>>>>>>> tapes
>>>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>> setting - either
>>>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the
>>>>>>>> Forum
>>>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>>>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>>>>>> "Software
>>>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
>>>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it
>>>>>> when it
>>>>>> has progressed somewhat?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> similar by
>>>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that
>>>>>>>> too).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews
>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James wrote
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording
>>>>>>>>> stalls?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about
>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>
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Re: Overdub off by default

Peter Sampson-2
OK - I concede as outvoted.  ;-)

I do admit that it is far less of an issue now that record-beside is the default
recording mode.

And I do take the point aboot us being a multi-track editor.
(Though I do note that we have no tutorial in the Manual for mult-tracking
which is odd since many posters in this thread regard it as one of our key features
indeed our USP.  I, certainly, do not hav ethe experience to write such a tutorial
though I would happily find time to edit such a one.)

However - can I please put in a plea for nomenclature consistency to
avoud confusing our users.

In the Recording tab of Preferences in 2.2.0 for overdub on/off,in our recent
strive to reduce verbosity we now have:
"Playthrough" and then "Other tracks while recording"

There is no mention here of "overdub"
In 2.1.3 and earlier we had instead the more verbose:
"Overdub: Play other tracks while recording new one"

In contrast, and contravening consistency
in Transport > Transport Options we have the simple menu entry:
"Overdub (on/off)"

(and note that Overdub is used on the main page too).


So can we please change the Prefs pane entry to be either:

a) "Overdub" - plain and simple, or

b) "Overdub: play other tracks while recording" - more verbose but clearer

Thanks,
Peter.



On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:54 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm with Steve here.
We are heading towards a single track editor.
I've got better software for that purpose installed.
Many hardware manufacturers that bundle Audacity offer only a very old
version. After the user has learnt to record e.g. an LP he might
discover that a new version is available. Of a sudden, he will see
that the defaults have changed.
This is nice for some of them but certainly not for all.

+1.

David.
 

Overdub isn't harmful for line-in recordings.
It can be harmful for stereo-mix (e.g. recording YouTube) but we
shouldn't focus on that since it is from a legal point questionable
and direct download is secondly faster and of possible higher quality.
Overdub is also no problem for audio book creation since append record
is the default.
However, it will become essential for the latter in future when
features such as punch-in or roll-in or record to selection (with
arbitrary playback start) will be available.

Robert



On 27/06/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As it says on our home page: "Audacity® is free, open source,
> cross-platform audio software for multi-track recording and editing."
>
> Audacity's "multi-track" capability has been a core feature and major
> "selling point" for over a decade. While there have been many other
> audio editors come and go, even open source audio editors, there have
> been very few open source multi-track audio editors. We have
> substantially watered down that feature by making "append record" the
> default. Let's not forget the *many* users of Audacity that want to do
> more than simply copy recordings from one format to another. Wanting
> to overdub does not automatically make you an expert / advanced user.
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 27 June 2017 at 00:03, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 26 June 2017 at 23:05, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users
>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes
>>>>>>>> recording
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay with
>>>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation, explaining
>>>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing I do
>>>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is
>>>>> unexpected
>>>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function then
>>>>> I'll
>>>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back as it
>>>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>>>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>>>
>>> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why you
>>> just doer-decides it.
>>
>> In my opinion we get way too many volte-face decisions out of the blue
>> with almost no discussion or explanation. No-one know whether they
>> are coming or going like that. Many get reverted so I see the moral that
>> we may be better to chat around them first.
>>
>>
>>> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you revert
>>> this without any further discussion.
>>>
>>> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale and
>>> Steve) against.
>>>
>>> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have a
>>> double vote here?
>>>
>>>
>>> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for the
>>> folk who want and need overdub to turn it on when they need it?
>>
>> I would find it more intuitive to leave overdub on and mute the tracks
>> I don't want to hear.
>>
>> I still can't think I have seen many who wanted to not play the first
>> track when recording. There are plenty who do want to overdub but
>> get tangled up re-recording the first track.
>>
>>
>>> We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to be able to similarly discover
>>> Software Playtrhrough when they need it.
>>
>> True but as others have pointed out, perhaps that is the wrong
>> decision now. Questions on "how to listen to the tape or LP"
>> certainly outnumber those on how not to hear previous tracks
>> when recording.
>>
>>
>>> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably don't
>>> do
>>> overdub
>>> recordings all the time ...
>>
>> I am figuring controls for playthrough and overdub could be better in the
>> interface for greater discoverability.  Perhaps in Device Toolbar, by the
>> playback device.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if the
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub should
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to sing
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>>>>>> accident"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs and
>>>>>>>> inexperienced
>>>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing their
>>>>>>>> tapes
>>>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find the
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>> setting - either
>>>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to the
>>>>>>>> Forum
>>>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is that
>>>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>>>>>> "Software
>>>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the various
>>>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over it
>>>>>> when it
>>>>>> has progressed somewhat?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --James.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers to
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> similar by
>>>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that
>>>>>>>> too).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews
>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James wrote
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem that
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording
>>>>>>>>> stalls?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions about
>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the opposite.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences (or on
>>>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Overdub off by default

Gale
Administrator
I think it's the menu item that's wrong if anything is.

I had no clue what "overdub" was when I started. The current
Prefs wording does give the noob some clue.

If the user still does not know then the text in the Manual
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Recording_Preferences

ought to help them - except at present it shows the old prefs
wordings.

If we want to change the Prefs, I'd just add "(overdub)" to the
end of the current text.


Gale


On 27 June 2017 at 11:33, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OK - I concede as outvoted.  ;-)
>
> I do admit that it is far less of an issue now that record-beside is the
> default
> recording mode.
>
> And I do take the point aboot us being a multi-track editor.
> (Though I do note that we have no tutorial in the Manual for mult-tracking
> which is odd since many posters in this thread regard it as one of our key
> features
> indeed our USP.  I, certainly, do not hav ethe experience to write such a
> tutorial
> though I would happily find time to edit such a one.)
>
> However - can I please put in a plea for nomenclature consistency to
> avoud confusing our users.
>
> In the Recording tab of Preferences in 2.2.0 for overdub on/off,in our
> recent
> strive to reduce verbosity we now have:
> "Playthrough" and then "Other tracks while recording"
>
> There is no mention here of "overdub"
> In 2.1.3 and earlier we had instead the more verbose:
> "Overdub: Play other tracks while recording new one"
>
> In contrast, and contravening consistency
> in Transport > Transport Options we have the simple menu entry:
> "Overdub (on/off)"
>
> (and note that Overdub is used on the main page too).
>
>
> So can we please change the Prefs pane entry to be either:
>
> a) "Overdub" - plain and simple, or
>
> b) "Overdub: play other tracks while recording" - more verbose but clearer
>
> Thanks,
> Peter.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:54 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm with Steve here.
>>> We are heading towards a single track editor.
>>> I've got better software for that purpose installed.
>>> Many hardware manufacturers that bundle Audacity offer only a very old
>>> version. After the user has learnt to record e.g. an LP he might
>>> discover that a new version is available. Of a sudden, he will see
>>> that the defaults have changed.
>>> This is nice for some of them but certainly not for all.
>>
>>
>> +1.
>>
>> David.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Overdub isn't harmful for line-in recordings.
>>> It can be harmful for stereo-mix (e.g. recording YouTube) but we
>>> shouldn't focus on that since it is from a legal point questionable
>>> and direct download is secondly faster and of possible higher quality.
>>> Overdub is also no problem for audio book creation since append record
>>> is the default.
>>> However, it will become essential for the latter in future when
>>> features such as punch-in or roll-in or record to selection (with
>>> arbitrary playback start) will be available.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27/06/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > As it says on our home page: "Audacity® is free, open source,
>>> > cross-platform audio software for multi-track recording and editing."
>>> >
>>> > Audacity's "multi-track" capability has been a core feature and major
>>> > "selling point" for over a decade. While there have been many other
>>> > audio editors come and go, even open source audio editors, there have
>>> > been very few open source multi-track audio editors. We have
>>> > substantially watered down that feature by making "append record" the
>>> > default. Let's not forget the *many* users of Audacity that want to do
>>> > more than simply copy recordings from one format to another. Wanting
>>> > to overdub does not automatically make you an expert / advanced user.
>>> >
>>> > Steve
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 27 June 2017 at 00:03, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >> On 26 June 2017 at 23:05, Peter Sampson
>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson
>>> >>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users
>>> >>>>>>>> wanted
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>> >>>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>> >>>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes
>>> >>>>>>>> recording
>>> >>>>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>>>> again
>>> >>>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem
>>> >>>>>> now.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay
>>> >>>>>> with
>>> >>>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation,
>>> >>>>>> explaining
>>> >>>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing
>>> >>>>> I do
>>> >>>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is
>>> >>>>> unexpected
>>> >>>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function
>>> >>>>> then
>>> >>>>> I'll
>>> >>>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back
>>> >>>> as it
>>> >>>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>>> >>>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why
>>> >>> you
>>> >>> just doer-decides it.
>>> >>
>>> >> In my opinion we get way too many volte-face decisions out of the blue
>>> >> with almost no discussion or explanation. No-one know whether they
>>> >> are coming or going like that. Many get reverted so I see the moral
>>> >> that
>>> >> we may be better to chat around them first.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you
>>> >>> revert
>>> >>> this without any further discussion.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale
>>> >>> and
>>> >>> Steve) against.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have
>>> >>> a
>>> >>> double vote here?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> folk who want and need overdub to turn it on when they need it?
>>> >>
>>> >> I would find it more intuitive to leave overdub on and mute the tracks
>>> >> I don't want to hear.
>>> >>
>>> >> I still can't think I have seen many who wanted to not play the first
>>> >> track when recording. There are plenty who do want to overdub but
>>> >> get tangled up re-recording the first track.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to be able to similarly
>>> >>> discover
>>> >>> Software Playtrhrough when they need it.
>>> >>
>>> >> True but as others have pointed out, perhaps that is the wrong
>>> >> decision now. Questions on "how to listen to the tape or LP"
>>> >> certainly outnumber those on how not to hear previous tracks
>>> >> when recording.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably
>>> >>> don't
>>> >>> do
>>> >>> overdub
>>> >>> recordings all the time ...
>>> >>
>>> >> I am figuring controls for playthrough and overdub could be better in
>>> >> the
>>> >> interface for greater discoverability.  Perhaps in Device Toolbar, by
>>> >> the
>>> >> playback device.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Gale
>>> >>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if
>>> >>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>> user
>>> >>>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub
>>> >>>>>>> should
>>> >>>>>>> probably
>>> >>>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to
>>> >>>>>>> sing
>>> >>>>>>> over
>>> >>>>>>> a
>>> >>>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>> >>>>>>> accident"?
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs
>>> >>>>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>>>> inexperienced
>>> >>>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing
>>> >>>>>>>> their
>>> >>>>>>>> tapes
>>> >>>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>> >>>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find
>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>> right
>>> >>>>>>>> setting - either
>>> >>>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to
>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>> Forum
>>> >>>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>> >>>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is
>>> >>>>>>> that
>>> >>>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>> >>>>>>> "Software
>>> >>>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the
>>> >>>>>> various
>>> >>>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over
>>> >>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>> when it
>>> >>>>>> has progressed somewhat?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> --James.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Steve
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> do
>>> >>>>>>>> similar by
>>> >>>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that
>>> >>>>>>>> too).
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Peter.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews
>>> >>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> James wrote
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem
>>> >>>>>>>>> that
>>> >>>>>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording
>>> >>>>>>>>> stalls?
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions
>>> >>>>>>>>> about
>>> >>>>>>>>> why
>>> >>>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the
>>> >>>>>>>>> opposite.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences
>>> >>>>>>>>>> (or on
>>> >>>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Gale
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >>>> [hidden email]
>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> >> Audacity-quality mailing list
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>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> >
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Overdub off by default

Gale
Administrator
On 27 June 2017 at 16:58, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think it's the menu item that's wrong if anything is.
>
> I had no clue what "overdub" was when I started. The current
> Prefs wording does give the noob some clue.
>
> If the user still does not know then the text in the Manual
> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Recording_Preferences
>
> ought to help them - except at present it shows the old prefs
> wordings.
>
> If we want to change the Prefs, I'd just add "(overdub)" to the
> end of the current text.

That's what I did.


Gale


> On 27 June 2017 at 11:33, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> OK - I concede as outvoted.  ;-)
>>
>> I do admit that it is far less of an issue now that record-beside is the
>> default
>> recording mode.
>>
>> And I do take the point aboot us being a multi-track editor.
>> (Though I do note that we have no tutorial in the Manual for mult-tracking
>> which is odd since many posters in this thread regard it as one of our key
>> features
>> indeed our USP.  I, certainly, do not hav ethe experience to write such a
>> tutorial
>> though I would happily find time to edit such a one.)
>>
>> However - can I please put in a plea for nomenclature consistency to
>> avoud confusing our users.
>>
>> In the Recording tab of Preferences in 2.2.0 for overdub on/off,in our
>> recent
>> strive to reduce verbosity we now have:
>> "Playthrough" and then "Other tracks while recording"
>>
>> There is no mention here of "overdub"
>> In 2.1.3 and earlier we had instead the more verbose:
>> "Overdub: Play other tracks while recording new one"
>>
>> In contrast, and contravening consistency
>> in Transport > Transport Options we have the simple menu entry:
>> "Overdub (on/off)"
>>
>> (and note that Overdub is used on the main page too).
>>
>>
>> So can we please change the Prefs pane entry to be either:
>>
>> a) "Overdub" - plain and simple, or
>>
>> b) "Overdub: play other tracks while recording" - more verbose but clearer
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:54 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm with Steve here.
>>>> We are heading towards a single track editor.
>>>> I've got better software for that purpose installed.
>>>> Many hardware manufacturers that bundle Audacity offer only a very old
>>>> version. After the user has learnt to record e.g. an LP he might
>>>> discover that a new version is available. Of a sudden, he will see
>>>> that the defaults have changed.
>>>> This is nice for some of them but certainly not for all.
>>>
>>>
>>> +1.
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Overdub isn't harmful for line-in recordings.
>>>> It can be harmful for stereo-mix (e.g. recording YouTube) but we
>>>> shouldn't focus on that since it is from a legal point questionable
>>>> and direct download is secondly faster and of possible higher quality.
>>>> Overdub is also no problem for audio book creation since append record
>>>> is the default.
>>>> However, it will become essential for the latter in future when
>>>> features such as punch-in or roll-in or record to selection (with
>>>> arbitrary playback start) will be available.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 27/06/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> > As it says on our home page: "Audacity® is free, open source,
>>>> > cross-platform audio software for multi-track recording and editing."
>>>> >
>>>> > Audacity's "multi-track" capability has been a core feature and major
>>>> > "selling point" for over a decade. While there have been many other
>>>> > audio editors come and go, even open source audio editors, there have
>>>> > been very few open source multi-track audio editors. We have
>>>> > substantially watered down that feature by making "append record" the
>>>> > default. Let's not forget the *many* users of Audacity that want to do
>>>> > more than simply copy recordings from one format to another. Wanting
>>>> > to overdub does not automatically make you an expert / advanced user.
>>>> >
>>>> > Steve
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 27 June 2017 at 00:03, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >> On 26 June 2017 at 23:05, Peter Sampson
>>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 6/26/2017 7:39 PM, Cliff Scott wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:21 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On 6/26/2017 4:44 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On 26 June 2017 at 16:34, Peter Sampson
>>>> >>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm with James here.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> It's long puzzled me why we assumed that all/most of our users
>>>> >>>>>>>> wanted
>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>> do overdubbing.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> I certainly recall many posts on the Forum where users were
>>>> >>>>>>>> confused/puzzled
>>>> >>>>>>>> as to why they were hearing their first track (and sometimes
>>>> >>>>>>>> recording
>>>> >>>>>>>> it
>>>> >>>>>>>> again
>>>> >>>>>>>> faintly through the mic as they made the second track).
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> but that was when "record to new track" was the default.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> That's a very good point.  It should be much less of a problem
>>>> >>>>>> now.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> So I'll make the change in default only for DA, and we'll stay
>>>> >>>>>> with
>>>> >>>>>> overdub ON as default in Audacity and see how it goes for 2.2.0.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> We'll also try and address the issue through documentation,
>>>> >>>>>> explaining
>>>> >>>>>> clearly the difference between Overdub and Software Play-Through.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I've always wondered why Overdub is on by default. The first thing
>>>> >>>>> I do
>>>> >>>>> with a new installation is turn it off. The last thing I need is
>>>> >>>>> unexpected
>>>> >>>>> audio playing when I'm doing a recording. If I need it's function
>>>> >>>>> then
>>>> >>>>> I'll
>>>> >>>>> turn it on, but default?????? Software is off for the same reasons.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I've just made a push so it is off by default in DA only, and back
>>>> >>>> as it
>>>> >>>> was, i.e. on, in Audacity.
>>>> >>>> We can revisit the default for this and for other settings in 2.2.1.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Well I think that is a darn great shame.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> You, James obviously thought it was the right thing to do, that'w why
>>>> >>> you
>>>> >>> just doer-decides it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In my opinion we get way too many volte-face decisions out of the blue
>>>> >> with almost no discussion or explanation. No-one know whether they
>>>> >> are coming or going like that. Many get reverted so I see the moral
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> we may be better to chat around them first.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Then you get Bill, Cliff and me agreeing with you - but still you
>>>> >>> revert
>>>> >>> this without any further discussion.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So far the effective voting for this has been 4 in favour and 2 (Gale
>>>> >>> and
>>>> >>> Steve) against.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Does Gale's vote count for more that the rest of us? Does Steve have
>>>> >>> a
>>>> >>> double vote here?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If we do have it turned off by default just how darned hard is it for
>>>> >>> the
>>>> >>> folk who want and need overdub to turn it on when they need it?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I would find it more intuitive to leave overdub on and mute the tracks
>>>> >> I don't want to hear.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I still can't think I have seen many who wanted to not play the first
>>>> >> track when recording. There are plenty who do want to overdub but
>>>> >> get tangled up re-recording the first track.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> We certainly expect the USB TT/tape folk to be able to similarly
>>>> >>> discover
>>>> >>> Software Playtrhrough when they need it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> True but as others have pointed out, perhaps that is the wrong
>>>> >> decision now. Questions on "how to listen to the tape or LP"
>>>> >> certainly outnumber those on how not to hear previous tracks
>>>> >> when recording.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> And let us remember that even those folk who use overdub probably
>>>> >>> don't
>>>> >>> do
>>>> >>> overdub
>>>> >>> recordings all the time ...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I am figuring controls for playthrough and overdub could be better in
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> interface for greater discoverability.  Perhaps in Device Toolbar, by
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> playback device.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Gale
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Now that "append record" is the default, that will only happen if
>>>> >>>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>> user
>>>> >>>>>>> actually wants to record a new track, in which case overdub
>>>> >>>>>>> should
>>>> >>>>>>> probably
>>>> >>>>>>> be enabled. Why make it more difficult for users that want to
>>>> >>>>>>> sing
>>>> >>>>>>> over
>>>> >>>>>>> a
>>>> >>>>>>> backing track now that recording to a new track is hard to do "by
>>>> >>>>>>> accident"?
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> We don't turn on by default "Software Playthrough" for the noobs
>>>> >>>>>>>> and
>>>> >>>>>>>> inexperienced
>>>> >>>>>>>> users who want to hear their audio while they are transcribing
>>>> >>>>>>>> their
>>>> >>>>>>>> tapes
>>>> >>>>>>>> and LPs (and
>>>> >>>>>>>> I was one of those).  We expect such users to be able to find
>>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>>> right
>>>> >>>>>>>> setting - either
>>>> >>>>>>>> for themselves or by following our tutorials (or by writing to
>>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>>> Forum
>>>> >>>>>>>> as I did ten years
>>>> >>>>>>>> ago - and some still do).
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> There's an additional issue wrt "Software Playthrough" which is
>>>> >>>>>>> that
>>>> >>>>>>> "Stereo Mix" is commonly the default on Windows. "Stereo Mix" and
>>>> >>>>>>> "Software
>>>> >>>>>>> Playthrough" is a bad combination.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Suggestions for dealing with that better?
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I find this page as it stands currently confusing:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Tutorial_-_Recording_Computer_Playback_on_Windows
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> With Peter I'm going to have a go at improving/signposting the
>>>> >>>>>> various
>>>> >>>>>> 'recording scenarios advice'.  Would you (Steve) have a look over
>>>> >>>>>> it
>>>> >>>>>> when it
>>>> >>>>>> has progressed somewhat?
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> --James.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Steve
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> I think it is perfectly reasonable for inexperienced overdubbers
>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>> do
>>>> >>>>>>>> similar by
>>>> >>>>>>>> experimenting or RTFM on overdub (we do have tutorials for that
>>>> >>>>>>>> too).
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Gale Andrews
>>>> >>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> James wrote
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/869de7
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Overdub off by default.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Confused many new users in the past"
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Evidence, please? From real Audacity, not Dark. Is the problem
>>>> >>>>>>>>> that
>>>> >>>>>>>>> of
>>>> >>>>>>>>> latency settings hiding audio behind zero when the recording
>>>> >>>>>>>>> stalls?
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Even with Overdub on, I seem to recall more Forum questions
>>>> >>>>>>>>> about
>>>> >>>>>>>>> why
>>>> >>>>>>>>> the backing track does not play during recording than the
>>>> >>>>>>>>> opposite.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Experienced users can be expected to find it in preferences
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (or on
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> menu) and turn it on, if they need it.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Can normal users do so?
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
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