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Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle
This came up today on feedback@ and concerns the plug-in path on Linux.

The default path for shipped plug-ins is:
usr/share/audacity/plug-ins
or
usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins

Both of these locations require root privileges to write to.

Users may also install plug-ins in their home directory (only requires normal use privileges) as described in the Manual (http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install and wiki (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#install) by creating a folder:
~/.audacity-files/plug-ins

So far so good...

but we also have an undocumented folder in:
~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins

(note also the non-Linux-like capitalization)

This seems to have been added 7+ years ago (by Richard Ash ?)

wxString FileNames::PlugInDir()
{
   return FileNames::MkDir( wxFileName( DataDir(), wxT("Plug-Ins") ).GetFullPath() );
}

Does anyone know why?
Do we actually want this?

Steve

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Gale
Administrator
On 15 May 2017 at 10:10, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This came up today on feedback@ and concerns the plug-in path on Linux.
>
> The default path for shipped plug-ins is:
> usr/share/audacity/plug-ins
> or
> usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins
>
> Both of these locations require root privileges to write to.
>
> Users may also install plug-ins in their home directory (only requires
> normal use privileges) as described in the Manual
> (http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
> and wiki
> (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#install) by
> creating a folder:
> ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins
>
> So far so good...
>
> but we also have an undocumented folder in:
> ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins
>
> (note also the non-Linux-like capitalization)
>
> This seems to have been added 7+ years ago (by Richard Ash ?)
>
> wxString FileNames::PlugInDir()
> {
>    return FileNames::MkDir( wxFileName( DataDir(), wxT("Plug-Ins")
> ).GetFullPath() );
> }
>
> Does anyone know why?

The Plug-Ins folder in Audacity's application data folder is documented on:
http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install

It's the Wiki page that does not mention that folder.


> Do we actually want this?

Does it violate anything on Linux apart from perhaps dubious capitalisation?

It does have the merit of already existing in the user's own space.


Gale

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle


On 16 May 2017 at 02:10, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 15 May 2017 at 10:10, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This came up today on feedback@ and concerns the plug-in path on Linux.
>
> The default path for shipped plug-ins is:
> usr/share/audacity/plug-ins
> or
> usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins
>
> Both of these locations require root privileges to write to.
>
> Users may also install plug-ins in their home directory (only requires
> normal use privileges) as described in the Manual
> (http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
> and wiki
> (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#install) by
> creating a folder:
> ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins
>
> So far so good...
>
> but we also have an undocumented folder in:
> ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins
>
> (note also the non-Linux-like capitalization)
>
> This seems to have been added 7+ years ago (by Richard Ash ?)
>
> wxString FileNames::PlugInDir()
> {
>    return FileNames::MkDir( wxFileName( DataDir(), wxT("Plug-Ins")
> ).GetFullPath() );
> }
>
> Does anyone know why?

The Plug-Ins folder in Audacity's application data folder is documented on:
http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install

OK, I missed that, but that documentation is confusing:

It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read only.
It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case sensitive file system)
It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write



It's the Wiki page that does not mention that folder.


> Do we actually want this?

Does it violate anything on Linux apart from perhaps dubious capitalisation?

Needless duplication and confusion.
Increased risk of user error, documentation errors (as seen in the current user manual) and programming errors.
Increased complexity to the search path.
Increased complexity to the documentation

Is the existence of ~/audacity-data/Plug-Ins intentional, or just the result of a 'harmless' coding error?
If intentional, what's the reason?

As we saw in this forum topic: https://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=95305 there are some other strange issues with the plug-in search path.

Needless complication is bad for so many reasons that if this additional "Plug-Ins" path is "needless", then I think it should be removed.

Is this DataDir() + "Plug-Ins" path relevant on any other platform, or can it just be deleted?

 

It does have the merit of already existing in the user's own space.

Not really a "merit" as we could just as easily create ~/audacity-file/plug-ins if we wanted to (though I don't see a great need to do so, and it would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle plug-in installation on all platforms).

Steve
 


Gale

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Gale
Administrator
Yes, the Plug-Ins folder in the application data folder works on all
platforms for Nyquist, LADSPA and VST plugins.

Now that Audacity is all-in-one on Mac, that folder is essential on
Mac. Otherwise, users will have to drill down into the Contents
folder of the app to add plugins, and will lose their new plugins
when Audacity is upgraded.

So unequivocal -1 from me to deleting it on Mac.

On Ubuntu, your script for returning Nyquist plugin paths returns
undocumented paths:

/home/gale/nyquist
/home/gale/plugins
/home/gale/plug-ins

And I can't make ~/plug-ins see Nyquist plugins. Can you? Are those
three folders not needless duplication (or the reverse, ~/.audacity-files
is needless duplication - and requires showing hidden folders)?

Is there a standard in Linux FHS for this? I can't see one:
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html


Steve wrote:
> It would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
> plug-in installation on all platforms).

I don't understand that point. Does that not happen now on Linux?
That is, put the plugin somewhere then enable it in Plug-in Manager?



Gale


On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 02:10, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 15 May 2017 at 10:10, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > This came up today on feedback@ and concerns the plug-in path on Linux.
>> >
>> > The default path for shipped plug-ins is:
>> > usr/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> > or
>> > usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> >
>> > Both of these locations require root privileges to write to.
>> >
>> > Users may also install plug-ins in their home directory (only requires
>> > normal use privileges) as described in the Manual
>> >
>> > (http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> > and wiki
>> > (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#install) by
>> > creating a folder:
>> > ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins
>> >
>> > So far so good...
>> >
>> > but we also have an undocumented folder in:
>> > ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins
>> >
>> > (note also the non-Linux-like capitalization)
>> >
>> > This seems to have been added 7+ years ago (by Richard Ash ?)
>> >
>> > wxString FileNames::PlugInDir()
>> > {
>> >    return FileNames::MkDir( wxFileName( DataDir(), wxT("Plug-Ins")
>> > ).GetFullPath() );
>> > }
>> >
>> > Does anyone know why?
>>
>> The Plug-Ins folder in Audacity's application data folder is documented
>> on:
>>
>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>
>
> OK, I missed that, but that documentation is confusing:
>
> It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read only.
> It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
> sensitive file system)
> It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>
>>
>>
>> It's the Wiki page that does not mention that folder.
>>
>>
>> > Do we actually want this?
>>
>> Does it violate anything on Linux apart from perhaps dubious
>> capitalisation?
>
>
> Needless duplication and confusion.
> Increased risk of user error, documentation errors (as seen in the current
> user manual) and programming errors.
> Increased complexity to the search path.
> Increased complexity to the documentation
>
> Is the existence of ~/audacity-data/Plug-Ins intentional, or just the result
> of a 'harmless' coding error?
> If intentional, what's the reason?
>
> As we saw in this forum topic:
> https://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=95305 there are some
> other strange issues with the plug-in search path.
>
> Needless complication is bad for so many reasons that if this additional
> "Plug-Ins" path is "needless", then I think it should be removed.
>
> Is this DataDir() + "Plug-Ins" path relevant on any other platform, or can
> it just be deleted?
>
>
>>
>>
>> It does have the merit of already existing in the user's own space.
>
>
> Not really a "merit" as we could just as easily create
> ~/audacity-file/plug-ins if we wanted to (though I don't see a great need to
> do so, and it would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
> plug-in installation on all platforms).
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> audacity-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
> It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read only.
> It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
> sensitive file system)
> It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write

The read-only implication was just a stray bullet point that got left in.

I can confirm plugins cannot be seen in ~/.audacity-files/Plug-Ins so
I changed the subfolder name to lower case.

Note that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins does not see VST or LADSPA
plugins, which is unexpected given ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins does so.
The Manual was saying that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins saw LADSPA
plugins.

You can change ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins to ~/.audacity-data/plug-ins
and your plugins will still be seen.

See if this is better:
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux
.


Gale

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale


On 16 May 2017 at 17:48, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, the Plug-Ins folder in the application data folder works on all
platforms for Nyquist, LADSPA and VST plugins.

OK, thanks. I thought it might be relevant to other platforms.
 

Now that Audacity is all-in-one on Mac, that folder is essential on
Mac. Otherwise, users will have to drill down into the Contents
folder of the app to add plugins, and will lose their new plugins
when Audacity is upgraded.

So unequivocal -1 from me to deleting it on Mac.

Good. That makes sense for Mac.

 

On Ubuntu, your script for returning Nyquist plugin paths returns
undocumented paths:

/home/gale/nyquist
/home/gale/plugins
/home/gale/plug-ins

And I can't make ~/plug-ins see Nyquist plugins. Can you?

Just tried it with Audacity 2.1.3 release build. I deleted pluginregistry, pluginsettings and audacity.cfg files first, then put a know good Nyquist Effect plug-in into ~/plug-ins and the plug-in was correctly loaded.
It also worked with ~/nyquist and ~/plugins.
 
Are those
three folders not needless duplication (or the reverse, ~/.audacity-files
is needless duplication - and requires showing hidden folders)?

It looks like a lot of duplication to me.
 

Is there a standard in Linux FHS for this? I can't see one:
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html

Looking at other applications on my computer, the most common system is for an application to have a "dot directory", in which all of its configuration files, including application specific plug-ins, extensions, themes, filters, settings and so on are kept.

For example, Gimp has a folder:
~/.gimp-2.8
in which there is:
brushes/
curves/
dynamics/
...
scripts/
templates/
themes/
tmp/
tool-options/
tool-presets/
and then a bunch of plain text configuration files.

Similarly Mozilla Firefox has its "extensions", profile, settings and so on in ~/.mozilla

Dropbox uses ~/.dropbox

Filezilla uses ~/.filezilla

and so on.


So for Audacity, the "standard" structure would be:
~/.audacity

which would contain: "plug-ins/" (or "plugins/"), "autosave/", "chains/" and plain text configuration files.

We're not going to be able to do that overnight.
 



Steve wrote:
> It would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
> plug-in installation on all platforms).

I don't understand that point. Does that not happen now on Linux?
That is, put the plugin somewhere then enable it in Plug-in Manager?

I mean for the Plug-in manager to "install" plug-ins in the appropriate location.
Download the plug-in to your Desktop or anywhere, select it in the plug-in manager, and the plug-in manager installs it (copies it to an appropriate location and enabled it in Audacity).

Steve
 



Gale


On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 02:10, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 15 May 2017 at 10:10, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > This came up today on feedback@ and concerns the plug-in path on Linux.
>> >
>> > The default path for shipped plug-ins is:
>> > usr/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> > or
>> > usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> >
>> > Both of these locations require root privileges to write to.
>> >
>> > Users may also install plug-ins in their home directory (only requires
>> > normal use privileges) as described in the Manual
>> >
>> > (http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> > and wiki
>> > (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#install) by
>> > creating a folder:
>> > ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins
>> >
>> > So far so good...
>> >
>> > but we also have an undocumented folder in:
>> > ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins
>> >
>> > (note also the non-Linux-like capitalization)
>> >
>> > This seems to have been added 7+ years ago (by Richard Ash ?)
>> >
>> > wxString FileNames::PlugInDir()
>> > {
>> >    return FileNames::MkDir( wxFileName( DataDir(), wxT("Plug-Ins")
>> > ).GetFullPath() );
>> > }
>> >
>> > Does anyone know why?
>>
>> The Plug-Ins folder in Audacity's application data folder is documented
>> on:
>>
>> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>
>
> OK, I missed that, but that documentation is confusing:
>
> It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read only.
> It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
> sensitive file system)
> It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>
>>
>>
>> It's the Wiki page that does not mention that folder.
>>
>>
>> > Do we actually want this?
>>
>> Does it violate anything on Linux apart from perhaps dubious
>> capitalisation?
>
>
> Needless duplication and confusion.
> Increased risk of user error, documentation errors (as seen in the current
> user manual) and programming errors.
> Increased complexity to the search path.
> Increased complexity to the documentation
>
> Is the existence of ~/audacity-data/Plug-Ins intentional, or just the result
> of a 'harmless' coding error?
> If intentional, what's the reason?
>
> As we saw in this forum topic:
> https://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=95305 there are some
> other strange issues with the plug-in search path.
>
> Needless complication is bad for so many reasons that if this additional
> "Plug-Ins" path is "needless", then I think it should be removed.
>
> Is this DataDir() + "Plug-Ins" path relevant on any other platform, or can
> it just be deleted?
>
>
>>
>>
>> It does have the merit of already existing in the user's own space.
>
>
> Not really a "merit" as we could just as easily create
> ~/audacity-file/plug-ins if we wanted to (though I don't see a great need to
> do so, and it would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
> plug-in installation on all platforms).
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> audacity-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Gale
Administrator
On 16 May 2017 at 19:56, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
[...]

> Looking at other applications on my computer, the most common system is for
> an application to have a "dot directory", in which all of its configuration
> files, including application specific plug-ins, extensions, themes, filters,
> settings and so on are kept.
>
> For example, Gimp has a folder:
> ~/.gimp-2.8
> in which there is:
> brushes/
> curves/
> dynamics/
> ...
> scripts/
> templates/
> themes/
> tmp/
> tool-options/
> tool-presets/
> and then a bunch of plain text configuration files.
>
> Similarly Mozilla Firefox has its "extensions", profile, settings and so on
> in ~/.mozilla
>
> Dropbox uses ~/.dropbox
>
> Filezilla uses ~/.filezilla
>
> and so on.
>
>
> So for Audacity, the "standard" structure would be:
> ~/.audacity
>
> which would contain: "plug-ins/" (or "plugins/"), "autosave/", "chains/" and
> plain text configuration files.

Still, that isn't a long way from ~/.audacity_data so I only see a
medium priority to change to ~/.audacity.

To me, DataDir() + "Plug-Ins" is a reasonable approach and
is uniform on all three platforms.It's perhaps a little superfluous
on Windows but once the user knows how to show that directory
it is arguably easier for a standard user than giving a password
to add plugins to Program Files\Audacity\Plug-Ins.

To me the actual problem is too many other folders that accept
only Nyquist plugins. But as in the Forum complaint you linked to,
actually provide a system path for Nyquist plugins that sysadmins
can use.


> We're not going to be able to do that overnight.

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > It would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
>> > plug-in installation on all platforms).
>>
>> I don't understand that point. Does that not happen now on Linux?
>> That is, put the plugin somewhere then enable it in Plug-in Manager?
>
>
> I mean for the Plug-in manager to "install" plug-ins in the appropriate
> location.
> Download the plug-in to your Desktop or anywhere, select it in the plug-in
> manager, and the plug-in manager installs it (copies it to an appropriate
> location and enabled it in Audacity).

Wow, that may be OK if any plugins were available as packages via
OneGet/Chocolatey on Windows or HomeBrew/MacPorts on Mac.

I can't see Audacity handling some of the complex commercial VST
installers that are common on Windows.


Gale

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 02:10, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 15 May 2017 at 10:10, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > This came up today on feedback@ and concerns the plug-in path on
>> >> > Linux.
>> >> >
>> >> > The default path for shipped plug-ins is:
>> >> > usr/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> >> > or
>> >> > usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> >> >
>> >> > Both of these locations require root privileges to write to.
>> >> >
>> >> > Users may also install plug-ins in their home directory (only
>> >> > requires
>> >> > normal use privileges) as described in the Manual
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > (http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> >> > and wiki
>> >> > (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#install)
>> >> > by
>> >> > creating a folder:
>> >> > ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins
>> >> >
>> >> > So far so good...
>> >> >
>> >> > but we also have an undocumented folder in:
>> >> > ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins
>> >> >
>> >> > (note also the non-Linux-like capitalization)
>> >> >
>> >> > This seems to have been added 7+ years ago (by Richard Ash ?)
>> >> >
>> >> > wxString FileNames::PlugInDir()
>> >> > {
>> >> >    return FileNames::MkDir( wxFileName( DataDir(), wxT("Plug-Ins")
>> >> > ).GetFullPath() );
>> >> > }
>> >> >
>> >> > Does anyone know why?
>> >>
>> >> The Plug-Ins folder in Audacity's application data folder is documented
>> >> on:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> >
>> >
>> > OK, I missed that, but that documentation is confusing:
>> >
>> > It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read
>> > only.
>> > It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
>> > sensitive file system)
>> > It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It's the Wiki page that does not mention that folder.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Do we actually want this?
>> >>
>> >> Does it violate anything on Linux apart from perhaps dubious
>> >> capitalisation?
>> >
>> >
>> > Needless duplication and confusion.
>> > Increased risk of user error, documentation errors (as seen in the
>> > current
>> > user manual) and programming errors.
>> > Increased complexity to the search path.
>> > Increased complexity to the documentation
>> >
>> > Is the existence of ~/audacity-data/Plug-Ins intentional, or just the
>> > result
>> > of a 'harmless' coding error?
>> > If intentional, what's the reason?
>> >
>> > As we saw in this forum topic:
>> > https://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=95305 there are some
>> > other strange issues with the plug-in search path.
>> >
>> > Needless complication is bad for so many reasons that if this additional
>> > "Plug-Ins" path is "needless", then I think it should be removed.
>> >
>> > Is this DataDir() + "Plug-Ins" path relevant on any other platform, or
>> > can
>> > it just be deleted?
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It does have the merit of already existing in the user's own space.
>> >
>> >
>> > Not really a "merit" as we could just as easily create
>> > ~/audacity-file/plug-ins if we wanted to (though I don't see a great
>> > need to
>> > do so, and it would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
>> > plug-in installation on all platforms).
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale


On 16 May 2017 at 19:32, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
> It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read only.
> It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
> sensitive file system)
> It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write

The read-only implication was just a stray bullet point that got left in.

I can confirm plugins cannot be seen in ~/.audacity-files/Plug-Ins so
I changed the subfolder name to lower case.

Note that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins does not see VST or LADSPA
plugins, which is unexpected given ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins does so.
The Manual was saying that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins saw LADSPA
plugins.

You can change ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins to ~/.audacity-data/plug-ins
and your plugins will still be seen.

See if this is better:
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux

That looks correct now, but the number of options (including the undocumented options) is far more complicated than it needs to be imo. I don't see why users need more than one location in their home directory for Nyquist plug-ins (in addition to the 'system' location).

The full list of locations on my machine where Audacity apparently looks for Nyquist plug-ins:

"~/nyquist"
"~/plugins"
"~/plug-ins"
"~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
"~/.audacity-files/plugins"
"~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
"/usr/local/share/audacity/nyquist"
"/usr/local/share/audacity/plugins"
"/usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins"
"/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
"/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plugins"
"/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
"/usr/local/share/locale/nyquist"
"/usr/local/share/locale/plugins"
"/usr/local/share/locale/plug-ins"
"~/locale/nyquist"
"~/locale/plugins"
"~/locale/plug-ins"

and

"~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"

Steve

 

.


Gale

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale


On 16 May 2017 at 20:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 May 2017 at 19:56, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
[...]
> Looking at other applications on my computer, the most common system is for
> an application to have a "dot directory", in which all of its configuration
> files, including application specific plug-ins, extensions, themes, filters,
> settings and so on are kept.
>
> For example, Gimp has a folder:
> ~/.gimp-2.8
> in which there is:
> brushes/
> curves/
> dynamics/
> ...
> scripts/
> templates/
> themes/
> tmp/
> tool-options/
> tool-presets/
> and then a bunch of plain text configuration files.
>
> Similarly Mozilla Firefox has its "extensions", profile, settings and so on
> in ~/.mozilla
>
> Dropbox uses ~/.dropbox
>
> Filezilla uses ~/.filezilla
>
> and so on.
>
>
> So for Audacity, the "standard" structure would be:
> ~/.audacity
>
> which would contain: "plug-ins/" (or "plugins/"), "autosave/", "chains/" and
> plain text configuration files.

Still, that isn't a long way from ~/.audacity_data so I only see a
medium priority to change to ~/.audacity.

To me, DataDir() + "Plug-Ins" is a reasonable approach and
is uniform on all three platforms.It's perhaps a little superfluous
on Windows but once the user knows how to show that directory
it is arguably easier for a standard user than giving a password
to add plugins to Program Files\Audacity\Plug-Ins.

To me the actual problem is too many other folders that accept
only Nyquist plugins. But as in the Forum complaint you linked to,
actually provide a system path for Nyquist plugins that sysadmins
can use.


> We're not going to be able to do that overnight.

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > It would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
>> > plug-in installation on all platforms).
>>
>> I don't understand that point. Does that not happen now on Linux?
>> That is, put the plugin somewhere then enable it in Plug-in Manager?
>
>
> I mean for the Plug-in manager to "install" plug-ins in the appropriate
> location.
> Download the plug-in to your Desktop or anywhere, select it in the plug-in
> manager, and the plug-in manager installs it (copies it to an appropriate
> location and enabled it in Audacity).

Wow, that may be OK if any plugins were available as packages via
OneGet/Chocolatey on Windows or HomeBrew/MacPorts on Mac.

I can't see Audacity handling some of the complex commercial VST
installers that are common on Windows.

If a complex commercial VST  plug-in has its own installer, then no need for us to handle the installation.

Steve
 


Gale

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 02:10, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 15 May 2017 at 10:10, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > This came up today on feedback@ and concerns the plug-in path on
>> >> > Linux.
>> >> >
>> >> > The default path for shipped plug-ins is:
>> >> > usr/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> >> > or
>> >> > usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins
>> >> >
>> >> > Both of these locations require root privileges to write to.
>> >> >
>> >> > Users may also install plug-ins in their home directory (only
>> >> > requires
>> >> > normal use privileges) as described in the Manual
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > (http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> >> > and wiki
>> >> > (http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#install)
>> >> > by
>> >> > creating a folder:
>> >> > ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins
>> >> >
>> >> > So far so good...
>> >> >
>> >> > but we also have an undocumented folder in:
>> >> > ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins
>> >> >
>> >> > (note also the non-Linux-like capitalization)
>> >> >
>> >> > This seems to have been added 7+ years ago (by Richard Ash ?)
>> >> >
>> >> > wxString FileNames::PlugInDir()
>> >> > {
>> >> >    return FileNames::MkDir( wxFileName( DataDir(), wxT("Plug-Ins")
>> >> > ).GetFullPath() );
>> >> > }
>> >> >
>> >> > Does anyone know why?
>> >>
>> >> The Plug-Ins folder in Audacity's application data folder is documented
>> >> on:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> >
>> >
>> > OK, I missed that, but that documentation is confusing:
>> >
>> > It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read
>> > only.
>> > It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
>> > sensitive file system)
>> > It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It's the Wiki page that does not mention that folder.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Do we actually want this?
>> >>
>> >> Does it violate anything on Linux apart from perhaps dubious
>> >> capitalisation?
>> >
>> >
>> > Needless duplication and confusion.
>> > Increased risk of user error, documentation errors (as seen in the
>> > current
>> > user manual) and programming errors.
>> > Increased complexity to the search path.
>> > Increased complexity to the documentation
>> >
>> > Is the existence of ~/audacity-data/Plug-Ins intentional, or just the
>> > result
>> > of a 'harmless' coding error?
>> > If intentional, what's the reason?
>> >
>> > As we saw in this forum topic:
>> > https://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=95305 there are some
>> > other strange issues with the plug-in search path.
>> >
>> > Needless complication is bad for so many reasons that if this additional
>> > "Plug-Ins" path is "needless", then I think it should be removed.
>> >
>> > Is this DataDir() + "Plug-Ins" path relevant on any other platform, or
>> > can
>> > it just be deleted?
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It does have the merit of already existing in the user's own space.
>> >
>> >
>> > Not really a "merit" as we could just as easily create
>> > ~/audacity-file/plug-ins if we wanted to (though I don't see a great
>> > need to
>> > do so, and it would be better would be for a "plug-in manager" to handle
>> > plug-in installation on all platforms).
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >
>>
>>
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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 16 May 2017 at 20:59, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 19:32, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> > It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read
>> > only.
>> > It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
>> > sensitive file system)
>> > It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>>
>> The read-only implication was just a stray bullet point that got left in.
>>
>> I can confirm plugins cannot be seen in ~/.audacity-files/Plug-Ins so
>> I changed the subfolder name to lower case.
>>
>> Note that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins does not see VST or LADSPA
>> plugins, which is unexpected given ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins does so.
>> The Manual was saying that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins saw LADSPA
>> plugins.
>>
>> You can change ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins to ~/.audacity-data/plug-ins
>> and your plugins will still be seen.
>>
>> See if this is better:
>>
>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux
>
>
> That looks correct now, but the number of options (including the
> undocumented options) is far more complicated than it needs to be imo. I
> don't see why users need more than one location in their home directory for
> Nyquist plug-ins (in addition to the 'system' location).

Looks like we may be in agreement then, though arguably the current
"system" locations for Nyquist plugins on Linux are suboptimal because
they don't preserve the plugins through updates of Audacity. I think we
could do with a system location for Nyquist plugins that doesn't have
that problem.


Gale



> The full list of locations on my machine where Audacity apparently looks for
> Nyquist plug-ins:
>
> "~/nyquist"
> "~/plugins"
> "~/plug-ins"
> "~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
> "~/.audacity-files/plugins"
> "~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
> "/usr/local/share/audacity/nyquist"
> "/usr/local/share/audacity/plugins"
> "/usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins"
> "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
> "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plugins"
> "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
> "/usr/local/share/locale/nyquist"
> "/usr/local/share/locale/plugins"
> "/usr/local/share/locale/plug-ins"
> "~/locale/nyquist"
> "~/locale/plugins"
> "~/locale/plug-ins"
>
> and
>
> "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
>
> Steve
>
>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle


On 17 May 2017 at 01:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 May 2017 at 20:59, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 16 May 2017 at 19:32, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> > It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read
>> > only.
>> > It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a case
>> > sensitive file system)
>> > It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>>
>> The read-only implication was just a stray bullet point that got left in.
>>
>> I can confirm plugins cannot be seen in ~/.audacity-files/Plug-Ins so
>> I changed the subfolder name to lower case.
>>
>> Note that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins does not see VST or LADSPA
>> plugins, which is unexpected given ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins does so.
>> The Manual was saying that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins saw LADSPA
>> plugins.
>>
>> You can change ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins to ~/.audacity-data/plug-ins
>> and your plugins will still be seen.
>>
>> See if this is better:
>>
>> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux
>
>
> That looks correct now, but the number of options (including the
> undocumented options) is far more complicated than it needs to be imo. I
> don't see why users need more than one location in their home directory for
> Nyquist plug-ins (in addition to the 'system' location).

Looks like we may be in agreement then, though arguably the current
"system" locations for Nyquist plugins on Linux are suboptimal because
they don't preserve the plugins through updates of Audacity.

I don't see that here.

We do (correctly) overwrite shipped plug-ins, which is normal for Linux and necessary to allow shipped plug-ins to be updated to the latest version, but user installed plug-ins survive both the uninstalling and reinstalling of Audacity from the command line.

I've not tested what happens when uninstalling / reinstalling via a distribution's package manager, but I'd have thought that was a matter for the distro maintainer.

 
I think we
could do with a system location for Nyquist plugins that doesn't have
that problem.

Speaking specifically about Linux:

1) Users should not overwrite system files unless they know what they are doing.
2) A system administrator should be able to install additional plug-ins system wide (for all users) by putting them into a system folder.
3) A regular user should only be able to install plug-ins within their user space.

Looking at this more deeply, it's more complex than first appears.

My documentation is wrong. The Nyquist plug-in path (get '*system-directory* 'plug-in) is not "the path to Nyquist plug-ins", it is a subset of "audacityPathList":

From the code:

/** \brief A list of directories that should be searched for Audacity files
* (plug-ins, help files, etc.).
*
* On Unix this will include the directory Audacity was installed into,
* plus the current user's .audacity-data/Plug-Ins directory.  Additional
* directories can be specified using the AUDACITY_PATH environment
* variable.  On Windows or Mac OS, this will include the directory
* which contains the Audacity program. */
wxArrayString audacityPathList;

The subset comes form: GetNyquistSearchPath
which is not documented.

The first use of GetNyquistSearchPath was in NyquistEffectsModule::FindPlugins, so I believe the intention was to be a list of where plug-ins may be located, but it also includes additional locations where other Nyquist related files are located.

(I'm not sure why some of these directories are not working for you Gale, but the code says they 'should' work, so I'll assume 'user error' for the sake of this discussion.)

Audacity can find Nyquist plug-ins in any of the directories, but that is NOT to say that all of these directories are the 'correct' locations for Nyquist plug-ins.

Example, the "Nyquist search path" (from GetNyquistSearchPath) includes the Nyquist .LSP files. This is reasonable because Nyquist needs to be able to find its LISP functions, but .NY plug-ins should not be mixed in with the .LSP files.

I need to analyze where Audacity is looking and why....

Steve
 


Gale



> The full list of locations on my machine where Audacity apparently looks for
> Nyquist plug-ins:
>
> "~/nyquist"
> "~/plugins"
> "~/plug-ins"
> "~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
> "~/.audacity-files/plugins"
> "~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
> "/usr/local/share/audacity/nyquist"
> "/usr/local/share/audacity/plugins"
> "/usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins"
> "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
> "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plugins"
> "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
> "/usr/local/share/locale/nyquist"
> "/usr/local/share/locale/plugins"
> "/usr/local/share/locale/plug-ins"
> "~/locale/nyquist"
> "~/locale/plugins"
> "~/locale/plug-ins"
>
> and
>
> "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
>
> Steve
>
>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle
This (below) is my analysis of the Nyquist plug-in path on Linux.

I'm not aware of this being documented, but I think it should be documented somewhere (Cc: to manual@)
I also think it shows some issues that need to be addressed. In particular, those marked "INCORRECT".


Re: "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"

I'm not convinced by the unconventional and (as far as I can see) unnecessary location.

If it really does support all types of plug-ins (Nyquist, Linux VST, LADSPA and LV2), then it is certainly more convenient for users that want to download arbitrary "shared object" files than installing LADSPA / LV2 or VST plug-ins correctly, but:

a) Is there a security risk?
b) Even if not a security risk, should we not encourage users to install shared plug-ins properly?
c) Installing plug-ins that are "approved" by the distro maintainers are easily installed via the package manager.

Steve


--- START ---

CORRECT (System):

"/usr/[local/]share/audacity/nyquist"
CORRECT location for system wide .LSP files

"/usr/[local/]share/audacity/plugins"
LEGACY location for system wide .NY plug-ins (depricated)

"/usr/[local/]share/audacity/plug-ins"
CORRECT location for system wide .NY plug-ins

"/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist documentation
(documentation could also be in the manual, but Nyquist won't
look there by default)
 
"/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/plugins"
LEGACY location for system wide Nyquist Plug-ins (depricated)

"/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
CORRECT location for system wide Audacity/Nyquist Plug-ins
(documentation could also be in the manual, but Nyquist won't
look there by default)

---

CORRECT (User):

"~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
CORRECT location for user .LSP files

"~/.audacity-files/plugins"
LEGACY location for user .NY plug-ins (depricated)

"~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
CORRECT location for user .NY plug-ins

---
---

CONVENIENT BUT UNNECESSARY AND NOT 'NIX-LIKE:

"~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
UNCONVENTIONAL location for all(?) types of plug-in including .NY plug-ins

---
---

NOT USED (System):

"/usr/[local/]share/locale/nyquist"
CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist Locale information

"/usr/[local/]share/locale/plugins"
LEGACY location for system wide Nyquist Plug-in Locale information (depricated)

"/usr/[local/]share/locale/plug-ins"
CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist Plug-in Locale information

---

NOT USED (User):
 
"~/locale/nyquist"
CORRECT location for user Nyquist Locale information

"~/locale/plugins"
LEGACY location for user Nyquist Plug-in Locale information (depricated)

"~/locale/plug-ins"
CORRECT location for user Nyquist Plug-in Locale information

---
---

INCORRECT (User):

These are dangerous clutter.
Users should be able to create non-dot directories for their own data without risk of affecting applications.

"~/nyquist"
INCORRECT. This would more properly be a user location for stand-alone Nyquist.


"~/plugins"
INCORRECT: This is dangerous clutter.

"~/plug-ins"
INCORRECT: This is dangerous clutter.


--- END ---

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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 17 May 2017 at 14:27, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 17 May 2017 at 01:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 20:59, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 19:32, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> >> > It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read
>> >> > only.
>> >> > It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a
>> >> > case
>> >> > sensitive file system)
>> >> > It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>> >>
>> >> The read-only implication was just a stray bullet point that got left
>> >> in.
>> >>
>> >> I can confirm plugins cannot be seen in ~/.audacity-files/Plug-Ins so
>> >> I changed the subfolder name to lower case.
>> >>
>> >> Note that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins does not see VST or LADSPA
>> >> plugins, which is unexpected given ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins does so.
>> >> The Manual was saying that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins saw LADSPA
>> >> plugins.
>> >>
>> >> You can change ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins to ~/.audacity-data/plug-ins
>> >> and your plugins will still be seen.
>> >>
>> >> See if this is better:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux
>> >
>> >
>> > That looks correct now, but the number of options (including the
>> > undocumented options) is far more complicated than it needs to be imo. I
>> > don't see why users need more than one location in their home directory
>> > for
>> > Nyquist plug-ins (in addition to the 'system' location).
>>
>> Looks like we may be in agreement then, though arguably the current
>> "system" locations for Nyquist plugins on Linux are suboptimal because
>> they don't preserve the plugins through updates of Audacity.
>
>
> I don't see that here.
>
> We do (correctly) overwrite shipped plug-ins, which is normal for Linux and
> necessary to allow shipped plug-ins to be updated to the latest version, but
> user installed plug-ins survive both the uninstalling and reinstalling of
> Audacity from the command line.
>
> I've not tested what happens when uninstalling / reinstalling via a
> distribution's package manager, but I'd have thought that was a matter for
> the distro maintainer.

What happens with a distro package is the primary concern of most
users and so the primary concern of the documentation.

http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux

says that "Updating the repository package of Audacity may remove
plug-ins that are not part of the package."  I don't think it was I who
added that text in the first place, but I expect that the caution is
warranted.


>> I think we
>> could do with a system location for Nyquist plugins that doesn't have
>> that problem.
>
>
> Speaking specifically about Linux:
>
> 1) Users should not overwrite system files unless they know what they are
> doing.
> 2) A system administrator should be able to install additional plug-ins
> system wide (for all users) by putting them into a system folder.

I assume a sysadmin on Linux would be installing a repository package
of Audacity, so if the above caution is correct and the sysadmin wants
users to have e.g. the ACX-Check plugin, should the sysadmin have to
keep reinstalling ACX-Check with each Audacity update?


> 3) A regular user should only be able to install plug-ins within their user
> space.
>
> Looking at this more deeply, it's more complex than first appears.
>
> My documentation is wrong. The Nyquist plug-in path (get '*system-directory*
> 'plug-in) is not "the path to Nyquist plug-ins", it is a subset of
> "audacityPathList":
>
> From the code:
>
> /** \brief A list of directories that should be searched for Audacity files
> * (plug-ins, help files, etc.).
> *
> * On Unix this will include the directory Audacity was installed into,
> * plus the current user's .audacity-data/Plug-Ins directory.  Additional
> * directories can be specified using the AUDACITY_PATH environment
> * variable.  On Windows or Mac OS, this will include the directory
> * which contains the Audacity program. */
> wxArrayString audacityPathList;
>
> The subset comes form: GetNyquistSearchPath
> which is not documented.
>
> The first use of GetNyquistSearchPath was in
> NyquistEffectsModule::FindPlugins, so I believe the intention was to be a
> list of where plug-ins may be located, but it also includes additional
> locations where other Nyquist related files are located.
>
> (I'm not sure why some of these directories are not working for you Gale,
> but the code says they 'should' work, so I'll assume 'user error' for the
> sake of this discussion.)

I have not retested yet, but I suspect a need to start with a fresh
pluginregistry.cfg is just as likely a cause.



Gale


> Audacity can find Nyquist plug-ins in any of the directories, but that is
> NOT to say that all of these directories are the 'correct' locations for
> Nyquist plug-ins.
>
> Example, the "Nyquist search path" (from GetNyquistSearchPath) includes the
> Nyquist .LSP files. This is reasonable because Nyquist needs to be able to
> find its LISP functions, but .NY plug-ins should not be mixed in with the
> .LSP files.
>
> I need to analyze where Audacity is looking and why....
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>> > The full list of locations on my machine where Audacity apparently looks
>> > for
>> > Nyquist plug-ins:
>> >
>> > "~/nyquist"
>> > "~/plugins"
>> > "~/plug-ins"
>> > "~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
>> > "~/.audacity-files/plugins"
>> > "~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/audacity/nyquist"
>> > "/usr/local/share/audacity/plugins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
>> > "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plugins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/locale/nyquist"
>> > "/usr/local/share/locale/plugins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/locale/plug-ins"
>> > "~/locale/nyquist"
>> > "~/locale/plugins"
>> > "~/locale/plug-ins"
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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Re: [Audacity-manual] Plug-in path on Linux

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 17 May 2017 at 15:37, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This (below) is my analysis of the Nyquist plug-in path on Linux.
>
> I'm not aware of this being documented, but I think it should be documented
> somewhere (Cc: to manual@)
> I also think it shows some issues that need to be addressed. In particular,
> those marked "INCORRECT".
>
>
> Re: "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
>
> I'm not convinced by the unconventional and (as far as I can see)
> unnecessary location.

We have agreed we need some folder like this on Mac.


> If it really does support all types of plug-ins (Nyquist, Linux VST, LADSPA
> and LV2),

I never said it supported LV2. It doesn't AFAICT. Audacity can see LV2
folders placed there, but if you enable the effect it does not appear in
the Effect menu and reverts to "New" in Plug-in Manager.  Move the
folder to ~/.lv2, and the effect works fine.

"~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins" supports Nyquist, VST (yes on Linux too)
and LADSPA on all platforms. So it supports the same as the Plug-Ins
folder in the Audacity executable directory on Windows, and the same
as the equivalent folder on Mac if you really want to drill down to it.


> then it is certainly more convenient for users that want to
> download arbitrary "shared object" files than installing LADSPA / LV2 or
> VST plug-ins correctly, but:
>
> a) Is there a security risk?
> b) Even if not a security risk, should we not encourage users to install
> shared plug-ins properly?
> c) Installing plug-ins that are "approved" by the distro maintainers are
> easily installed via the package manager.

What security risk do you have in mind?

Looking for more LV2 plugins on Linux just now, I found several that had
to be compiled and apparently manually installed.  There did not seem to
be a concept of "install properly" there.

Personally I am fine with "~/.audacity/plug-ins" on Linux (supporting Nyquist,
LADSPA and VST) and to trim the plethora of Nyquist-only plugin locations.

Please update http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux

further if you see the need. I think it is sufficiently correct now, but please
tell me if I am missing something obvious. I don't think we need to
document folders that are deprecated or that we may hopefully not be
supporting any longer.



Gale


> --- START ---
>
> CORRECT (System):
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/audacity/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for system wide .LSP files
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/audacity/plugins"
> LEGACY location for system wide .NY plug-ins (depricated)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/audacity/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for system wide .NY plug-ins
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist documentation
> (documentation could also be in the manual, but Nyquist won't
> look there by default)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/plugins"
> LEGACY location for system wide Nyquist Plug-ins (depricated)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for system wide Audacity/Nyquist Plug-ins
> (documentation could also be in the manual, but Nyquist won't
> look there by default)
>
> ---
>
> CORRECT (User):
>
> "~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for user .LSP files
>
> "~/.audacity-files/plugins"
> LEGACY location for user .NY plug-ins (depricated)
>
> "~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for user .NY plug-ins
>
> ---
> ---
>
> CONVENIENT BUT UNNECESSARY AND NOT 'NIX-LIKE:
>
> "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
> UNCONVENTIONAL location for all(?) types of plug-in including .NY plug-ins
>
> ---
> ---
>
> NOT USED (System):
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/locale/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist Locale information
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/locale/plugins"
> LEGACY location for system wide Nyquist Plug-in Locale information
> (depricated)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/locale/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist Plug-in Locale information
>
> ---
>
> NOT USED (User):
>
> "~/locale/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for user Nyquist Locale information
>
> "~/locale/plugins"
> LEGACY location for user Nyquist Plug-in Locale information (depricated)
>
> "~/locale/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for user Nyquist Plug-in Locale information
>
> ---
> ---
>
> INCORRECT (User):
>
> These are dangerous clutter.
> Users should be able to create non-dot directories for their own data
> without risk of affecting applications.
>
> "~/nyquist"
> INCORRECT. This would more properly be a user location for stand-alone
> Nyquist.
>
>
> "~/plugins"
> INCORRECT: This is dangerous clutter.
>
> "~/plug-ins"
> INCORRECT: This is dangerous clutter.
>
>
> --- END ---
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Audacity-manual] Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle


On 17 May 2017 at 21:32, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 May 2017 at 15:37, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This (below) is my analysis of the Nyquist plug-in path on Linux.
>
> I'm not aware of this being documented, but I think it should be documented
> somewhere (Cc: to manual@)
> I also think it shows some issues that need to be addressed. In particular,
> those marked "INCORRECT".
>
>
> Re: "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
>
> I'm not convinced by the unconventional and (as far as I can see)
> unnecessary location.

We have agreed we need some folder like this on Mac.

It could easily be made Mac specific, or Mac + Windows, if that's the right thing to do.

By saying "I'm not convinced..." I was trying to convey the sense that I was giving my "opinion" and that I don't "know for sure" what the right thing to do is. Input from a 'nix expert would be helpful.
 


> If it really does support all types of plug-ins (Nyquist, Linux VST, LADSPA
> and LV2),

I never said it supported LV2. It doesn't AFAICT. Audacity can see LV2
folders placed there, but if you enable the effect it does not appear in
the Effect menu and reverts to "New" in Plug-in Manager.  Move the
folder to ~/.lv2, and the effect works fine.

OK, so that's less useful than if it were universal.
 

"~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins" supports Nyquist, VST (yes on Linux too)
and LADSPA on all platforms. So it supports the same as the Plug-Ins
folder in the Audacity executable directory on Windows, and the same
as the equivalent folder on Mac if you really want to drill down to it.


> then it is certainly more convenient for users that want to
> download arbitrary "shared object" files than installing LADSPA / LV2 or
> VST plug-ins correctly, but:
>
> a) Is there a security risk?
> b) Even if not a security risk, should we not encourage users to install
> shared plug-ins properly?
> c) Installing plug-ins that are "approved" by the distro maintainers are
> easily installed via the package manager.

What security risk do you have in mind?

Looking for more LV2 plugins on Linux just now, I found several that had
to be compiled and apparently manually installed.  There did not seem to
be a concept of "install properly" there.

My understanding is that the "recommended" way to install LV2 (or anything else) is with the distros package manager, though of course Linux grants users the freedom to do whatever they like on their own machine. Plug-ins that are provided in a distribution's repository 'should' be safe to use. I don't think the same can be said for arbitrary downloads from the Internet.
 

Personally I am fine with "~/.audacity/plug-ins" on Linux (supporting Nyquist,
LADSPA and VST) and to trim the plethora of Nyquist-only plugin locations.

Please update http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux

further if you see the need. I think it is sufficiently correct now, but please
tell me if I am missing something obvious. I don't think we need to
document folders that are deprecated or that we may hopefully not be
supporting any longer.



Gale


> --- START ---
>
> CORRECT (System):
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/audacity/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for system wide .LSP files
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/audacity/plugins"
> LEGACY location for system wide .NY plug-ins (depricated)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/audacity/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for system wide .NY plug-ins
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist documentation
> (documentation could also be in the manual, but Nyquist won't
> look there by default)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/plugins"
> LEGACY location for system wide Nyquist Plug-ins (depricated)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for system wide Audacity/Nyquist Plug-ins
> (documentation could also be in the manual, but Nyquist won't
> look there by default)
>
> ---
>
> CORRECT (User):
>
> "~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for user .LSP files
>
> "~/.audacity-files/plugins"
> LEGACY location for user .NY plug-ins (depricated)
>
> "~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for user .NY plug-ins
>
> ---
> ---
>
> CONVENIENT BUT UNNECESSARY AND NOT 'NIX-LIKE:
>
> "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
> UNCONVENTIONAL location for all(?) types of plug-in including .NY plug-ins
>
> ---
> ---
>
> NOT USED (System):
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/locale/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist Locale information
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/locale/plugins"
> LEGACY location for system wide Nyquist Plug-in Locale information
> (depricated)
>
> "/usr/[local/]share/locale/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for system wide Nyquist Plug-in Locale information
>
> ---
>
> NOT USED (User):
>
> "~/locale/nyquist"
> CORRECT location for user Nyquist Locale information
>
> "~/locale/plugins"
> LEGACY location for user Nyquist Plug-in Locale information (depricated)
>
> "~/locale/plug-ins"
> CORRECT location for user Nyquist Plug-in Locale information
>
> ---
> ---
>
> INCORRECT (User):
>
> These are dangerous clutter.
> Users should be able to create non-dot directories for their own data
> without risk of affecting applications.
>
> "~/nyquist"
> INCORRECT. This would more properly be a user location for stand-alone
> Nyquist.
>
>
> "~/plugins"
> INCORRECT: This is dangerous clutter.
>
> "~/plug-ins"
> INCORRECT: This is dangerous clutter.
>
>
> --- END ---
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Re: Plug-in path on Linux

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale


On 17 May 2017 at 20:03, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 May 2017 at 14:27, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 17 May 2017 at 01:05, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 May 2017 at 20:59, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16 May 2017 at 19:32, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 16 May 2017 at 09:17, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/installing_effect_generator_and_analyzer_plug_ins_on_linux.html#nyquist_install
>> >> > It says, or at least implies that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins is read
>> >> > only.
>> >> > It has incorrect capitalization for file names (very important on a
>> >> > case
>> >> > sensitive file system)
>> >> > It then contradicts itself and says that ~/.../Plug-Ins is read/write
>> >>
>> >> The read-only implication was just a stray bullet point that got left
>> >> in.
>> >>
>> >> I can confirm plugins cannot be seen in ~/.audacity-files/Plug-Ins so
>> >> I changed the subfolder name to lower case.
>> >>
>> >> Note that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins does not see VST or LADSPA
>> >> plugins, which is unexpected given ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins does so.
>> >> The Manual was saying that ~/.audacity-files/plug-ins saw LADSPA
>> >> plugins.
>> >>
>> >> You can change ~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins to ~/.audacity-data/plug-ins
>> >> and your plugins will still be seen.
>> >>
>> >> See if this is better:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux
>> >
>> >
>> > That looks correct now, but the number of options (including the
>> > undocumented options) is far more complicated than it needs to be imo. I
>> > don't see why users need more than one location in their home directory
>> > for
>> > Nyquist plug-ins (in addition to the 'system' location).
>>
>> Looks like we may be in agreement then, though arguably the current
>> "system" locations for Nyquist plugins on Linux are suboptimal because
>> they don't preserve the plugins through updates of Audacity.
>
>
> I don't see that here.
>
> We do (correctly) overwrite shipped plug-ins, which is normal for Linux and
> necessary to allow shipped plug-ins to be updated to the latest version, but
> user installed plug-ins survive both the uninstalling and reinstalling of
> Audacity from the command line.
>
> I've not tested what happens when uninstalling / reinstalling via a
> distribution's package manager, but I'd have thought that was a matter for
> the distro maintainer.

What happens with a distro package is the primary concern of most
users and so the primary concern of the documentation.

http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Installing_Effect,_Generator_and_Analyzer_plug-ins_on_Linux

says that "Updating the repository package of Audacity may remove
plug-ins that are not part of the package."  I don't think it was I who
added that text in the first place, but I expect that the caution is
warranted.

I've just tested as follows:

1) Install Audacity from the Ubuntu repository with Synaptic (from end for 'apt')
2) Add a plug-in to /usr/share/audacity/plug-ins/
3) Reinstall Audacity from the Ubuntu repository.
The plug-in added in step 2 still exists.

4) "Complete removal" of Audacity via Synaptic
The plug-in added in step 2 still exists.

So it seems that the warning in the manual is incorrect, at least on Ubuntu (and if I recall correctly, it's the same on Debian).

Steve
 


>> I think we
>> could do with a system location for Nyquist plugins that doesn't have
>> that problem.
>
>
> Speaking specifically about Linux:
>
> 1) Users should not overwrite system files unless they know what they are
> doing.
> 2) A system administrator should be able to install additional plug-ins
> system wide (for all users) by putting them into a system folder.

I assume a sysadmin on Linux would be installing a repository package
of Audacity, so if the above caution is correct and the sysadmin wants
users to have e.g. the ACX-Check plugin, should the sysadmin have to
keep reinstalling ACX-Check with each Audacity update?


> 3) A regular user should only be able to install plug-ins within their user
> space.
>
> Looking at this more deeply, it's more complex than first appears.
>
> My documentation is wrong. The Nyquist plug-in path (get '*system-directory*
> 'plug-in) is not "the path to Nyquist plug-ins", it is a subset of
> "audacityPathList":
>
> From the code:
>
> /** \brief A list of directories that should be searched for Audacity files
> * (plug-ins, help files, etc.).
> *
> * On Unix this will include the directory Audacity was installed into,
> * plus the current user's .audacity-data/Plug-Ins directory.  Additional
> * directories can be specified using the AUDACITY_PATH environment
> * variable.  On Windows or Mac OS, this will include the directory
> * which contains the Audacity program. */
> wxArrayString audacityPathList;
>
> The subset comes form: GetNyquistSearchPath
> which is not documented.
>
> The first use of GetNyquistSearchPath was in
> NyquistEffectsModule::FindPlugins, so I believe the intention was to be a
> list of where plug-ins may be located, but it also includes additional
> locations where other Nyquist related files are located.
>
> (I'm not sure why some of these directories are not working for you Gale,
> but the code says they 'should' work, so I'll assume 'user error' for the
> sake of this discussion.)

I have not retested yet, but I suspect a need to start with a fresh
pluginregistry.cfg is just as likely a cause.



Gale


> Audacity can find Nyquist plug-ins in any of the directories, but that is
> NOT to say that all of these directories are the 'correct' locations for
> Nyquist plug-ins.
>
> Example, the "Nyquist search path" (from GetNyquistSearchPath) includes the
> Nyquist .LSP files. This is reasonable because Nyquist needs to be able to
> find its LISP functions, but .NY plug-ins should not be mixed in with the
> .LSP files.
>
> I need to analyze where Audacity is looking and why....
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>> > The full list of locations on my machine where Audacity apparently looks
>> > for
>> > Nyquist plug-ins:
>> >
>> > "~/nyquist"
>> > "~/plugins"
>> > "~/plug-ins"
>> > "~/.audacity-files/nyquist"
>> > "~/.audacity-files/plugins"
>> > "~/.audacity-files/plug-ins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/audacity/nyquist"
>> > "/usr/local/share/audacity/plugins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/audacity/plug-ins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/nyquist"
>> > "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plugins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/doc/audacity/plug-ins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/locale/nyquist"
>> > "/usr/local/share/locale/plugins"
>> > "/usr/local/share/locale/plug-ins"
>> > "~/locale/nyquist"
>> > "~/locale/plugins"
>> > "~/locale/plug-ins"
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > "~/.audacity-data/Plug-Ins"
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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