Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

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Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
keyboard to select from that point.

I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
there preferable alternatives?




Gale

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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

James Crook
Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I
see no problem with those as shortcuts.

Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?
I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have
more flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to
propose a 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre
defined shortcuts.

--James.


On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
> keyboard to select from that point.
>
> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
> there preferable alternatives?
>
>
>
>
> Gale



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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Gale
Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Cliff

> On May 26, 2017, at 5:06 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
> keyboard to select from that point.
>
> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
> there preferable alternatives?
>
>
>
>
> Gale
>
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I see
> no problem with those as shortcuts.
>
> Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?

There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
be a long discussion unless we are careful.

In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion) the ones I would
remove now are:

* Next Tool:  D
* Previous Tool: A

I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool without
knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.

* Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A

Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?

* The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled audio.
** Cut: Alt + X
** Delete: Alt + K
** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
** Silence Audio: Alt + L
** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
** Split: Alt + I
** Join: Alt + J
** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J

I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be significantly
changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
shortcuts.

The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are conflicts
with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the advice
to go to Keyboard Preferences.

Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".

> I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have more
> flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose a
> 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
> shortcuts.

I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.



Gale


> On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
>> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
>> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
>> keyboard to select from that point.
>>
>> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
>> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
>> there preferable alternatives?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott
On 27 May 2017 at 01:22, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro

I looked at Apple's lists of keyboard shortcuts:

* https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201236

* https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204434

and failed to find Option + N (Mac equivalent of Alt). I don't think we should
be influenced because some app could add a non-default global shortcut.

Is this an Automator script you are using?


> since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character
> ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard
> options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the
> letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good
> idea to me.

It's yet another regression on 2.1.1. I looked, but I don't see it on Bugzilla.
Did you add it? You're welcome to do so to get some practice in :=).
I think it P3, so it should have a release note. Let me know.

There is a kind of workaround in my testing, which is to use System
Preferences (Keyboard > Shortcuts tab, App Shortcuts, use the "+"
button to add Audacity). This does display the ^ for Ctrl in the Audacity
menu. But Audacity's Keyboard Preferences does not see the Apple
shortcut, and adding a binding in the Audacity preferences is still
overridden by the Apple shortcut.


Gale

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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Cliff Scott
Thanks Gale. I'll add it. The Option-N I setup myself to bring up the Normalize Effect as I use that very often and it's handy to just get it that way.

There is another "bug" that we discussed in the process of doing 2.1.3 where with the normal settings in MacOS the enter key doesn't focus on the OK button unless the dialog has a text entry which, when used, brings the focus to the dialog. Most times it requires the mouse to click OK. I don't think that was recorded as a bug, but maybe an enhancement. This would be a major improvement for Mac users.

Cliff

> On May 26, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 27 May 2017 at 01:22, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro
>
> I looked at Apple's lists of keyboard shortcuts:
>
> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201236
>
> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204434
>
> and failed to find Option + N (Mac equivalent of Alt). I don't think we should
> be influenced because some app could add a non-default global shortcut.
>
> Is this an Automator script you are using?
>
>
>> since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character
>> ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard
>> options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the
>> letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good
>> idea to me.
>
> It's yet another regression on 2.1.1. I looked, but I don't see it on Bugzilla.
> Did you add it? You're welcome to do so to get some practice in :=).
> I think it P3, so it should have a release note. Let me know.
>
> There is a kind of workaround in my testing, which is to use System
> Preferences (Keyboard > Shortcuts tab, App Shortcuts, use the "+"
> button to add Audacity). This does display the ^ for Ctrl in the Audacity
> menu. But Audacity's Keyboard Preferences does not see the Apple
> shortcut, and adding a binding in the Audacity preferences is still
> overridden by the Apple shortcut.
>
>
> Gale
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Cliff Scott
Added the bug, 1652. Feel free to modify as you see necessary or give suggestions so I can modify it. I wasn't sure what to put for Version of Audacity since it started with 2.1.2. Use "Unspecified" since it is multiple versions that have the issue?

Cliff

> On May 26, 2017, at 9:53 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Gale. I'll add it. The Option-N I setup myself to bring up the Normalize Effect as I use that very often and it's handy to just get it that way.
>
> There is another "bug" that we discussed in the process of doing 2.1.3 where with the normal settings in MacOS the enter key doesn't focus on the OK button unless the dialog has a text entry which, when used, brings the focus to the dialog. Most times it requires the mouse to click OK. I don't think that was recorded as a bug, but maybe an enhancement. This would be a major improvement for Mac users.
>
> Cliff
>
>> On May 26, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 27 May 2017 at 01:22, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro
>>
>> I looked at Apple's lists of keyboard shortcuts:
>>
>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201236
>>
>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204434
>>
>> and failed to find Option + N (Mac equivalent of Alt). I don't think we should
>> be influenced because some app could add a non-default global shortcut.
>>
>> Is this an Automator script you are using?
>>
>>
>>> since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character
>>> ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard
>>> options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the
>>> letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good
>>> idea to me.
>>
>> It's yet another regression on 2.1.1. I looked, but I don't see it on Bugzilla.
>> Did you add it? You're welcome to do so to get some practice in :=).
>> I think it P3, so it should have a release note. Let me know.
>>
>> There is a kind of workaround in my testing, which is to use System
>> Preferences (Keyboard > Shortcuts tab, App Shortcuts, use the "+"
>> button to add Audacity). This does display the ^ for Ctrl in the Audacity
>> menu. But Audacity's Keyboard Preferences does not see the Apple
>> shortcut, and adding a binding in the Audacity preferences is still
>> overridden by the Apple shortcut.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>


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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Gale


On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I see
> no problem with those as shortcuts.
>
> Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?

There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
be a long discussion unless we are careful.

I am with James on this, I too would like to see a much shorter set of shortcuts
set by default in Audacity - opening the ability for users to set their own
preferred shortcuts a lot more easily  - choosing ones that suit them,

And I do support the idea of an easily applied max-list of shorcuts (a "full set")
for VI users and users like Gale who want/need to work with a large number
of shortcuts - and indeed for users that hist want to have the full set available
even if thay only use a few of tem.

My reasoning here is that for most humans it is impsooble to remember and use
more than a small handful of shortcuts - so for most of us a smaller set is more
useful as it helps add our own more easily.

And yes I realize that, as Gale says, "this will be a long discussion unless we are
careful".   I did start some work on this a while back (but shelved it because I
couldn't face the long discussion which I realized would ensue).   You can see
Resposes to Gale's sggestions in-line below



In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion)

Surely the "max-list" is relatively simple, the full set we have now ?

It's the "min-list" that is gonn be hard for us to agree on.

 
the ones I would
remove now are:

* Next Tool:  D
* Previous Tool: A

I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool without
knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.

+1

in fact a big plus one to this - it is a beartrap, and an unnecessary bear trap at that

 

* Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A

Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?

+1

It is very simple (for sighted users anyway) to simply click anywhere in the
waveform (or in the waveform pane area, except in a TCP) to remove
a selection.

I'd be interested to hear the VI viewpoint on this - I can see this remaining in
the "full set"/"max-list" for the benefit of VY users.
 

* The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled audio.
** Cut: Alt + X
** Delete: Alt + K
** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
** Silence Audio: Alt + L
** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
** Split: Alt + I
** Join: Alt + J
** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J

+1

My spreadsheet shows that I agreed with this a while back ;-)

 

I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be significantly
changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
shortcuts.

The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are conflicts
with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the advice
to go to Keyboard Preferences.

Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".

> I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have more
> flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose a
> 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
> shortcuts.

I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.

I agree, as I wrote above.   But I won't be one who wants a "max-set".

But I do want it to be capable of being readily and easily applied by any user who
wants it - I'd probably like to see at as an option as part of the installation process
just like we have the "reset" option now.

Cheers,
Peter.


 



Gale


> On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
>> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
>> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
>> keyboard to select from that point.
>>
>> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
>> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
>> there preferable alternatives?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

James Crook
None of us wants long extended arguments about this.

I'm perfectly happy if in Audacity we end up just dropping a few. The A
& D beartrap seems totally uncontentious, so let us say it is agreed it
is to go.  Indeed all where Gale and Peter agree already.

I also think we offer the current bindings (minus A and D) as
'max-list'.  If that later gets added to, modified by others, I don't
mind - even if A and D get added back in.  I won't be using it and I
don't specially need to be in the conversation about tweaks to it.

Keyboard prefs can be modified so it behaves a bit like theme, in that
there are presets (default, max-list, custom).

I'm very -1 on a checkbox for modifying enabling/disabling of
shortcuts.  We have another mechanism which is the xml keybindings
file.  I'm very -1 on the keybindings being a choice at install time.  I
think we front load far too much.  WE have to decide defaults.  Users
who have a bit of experience can then decide to fine tune, after using
Audacity for a bit.

So let's remove the shortcuts we agree on, and add to keyboard prefs
built in choice for defaults, max-list, and a custom option.  We WILL
have discussion about details of the UI for that, but that is OK.

We will have new code in menus.cpp that looks something like this:

if( bUseDefaultShortcuts ){
     c->FreeUp( "Alt+X" );
     c->FreeUp( "Alt+K" );
}

This tells Audacity to free up shortcuts that are assigned in the
max-list case.


I am also fine with taking Peter's list and making it the default for
DA, including adding a few shortcuts in the effects group (Normalize,
Fade, Repair).

If I've got things right, we can proceed with little argument or
discussion.  Once I've done the code that makes choosing between
max-list or default easy.  Have I got it right?

--James.




On 5/27/2017 11:22 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:

> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I
>> see
>>> no problem with those as shortcuts.
>>>
>>> Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?
>> There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
>> be a long discussion unless we are careful.
>>
> I am with James on this, I too would like to see a much shorter set of
> shortcuts
> set by default in Audacity - opening the ability for users to set their own
> preferred shortcuts a lot more easily  - choosing ones that suit them,
>
> And I do support the idea of an easily applied max-list of shorcuts (a
> "full set")
> for VI users and users like Gale who want/need to work with a large number
> of shortcuts - and indeed for users that hist want to have the full set
> available
> even if thay only use a few of tem.
>
> My reasoning here is that for most humans it is impsooble to remember and
> use
> more than a small handful of shortcuts - so for most of us a smaller set is
> more
> useful as it helps add our own more easily.
>
> And yes I realize that, as Gale says, "this will be a long discussion
> unless we are
> careful".   I did start some work on this a while back (but shelved it
> because I
> couldn't face the long discussion which I realized would ensue).   You can
> see
> the results of my thinking in this spreadsheet in my Dropbox:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rtm64styhhr11s/Basic%20%28default%29%20Set%20of%20Audacity%20shortcuts.xls?dl=0
>
> Resposes to Gale's sggestions in-line below
>
>
>
>> In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion)
>
> Surely the "max-list" is relatively simple, the full set we have now ?
>
> It's the "min-list" that is gonn be hard for us to agree on.
>
>
>
>> the ones I would
>> remove now are:
>>
>> * Next Tool:  D
>> * Previous Tool: A
>>
>> I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool without
>> knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.
>>
> +1
>
> in fact a big plus one to this - it is a beartrap, and an unnecessary bear
> trap at that
>
>
>
>> * Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A
>>
>> Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?
>>
> +1
>
> It is very simple (for sighted users anyway) to simply click anywhere in
> the
> waveform (or in the waveform pane area, except in a TCP) to remove
> a selection.
>
> I'd be interested to hear the VI viewpoint on this - I can see this
> remaining in
> the "full set"/"max-list" for the benefit of VY users.
>
>
>> * The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled audio.
>> ** Cut: Alt + X
>> ** Delete: Alt + K
>> ** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
>> ** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
>> ** Silence Audio: Alt + L
>> ** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
>> ** Split: Alt + I
>> ** Join: Alt + J
>> ** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J
>>
> +1
>
> My spreadsheet shows that I agreed with this a while back ;-)
>
>
>
>> I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be significantly
>> changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
>> Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
>> shortcuts.
>>
>> The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
>> are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
>> be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
>> default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are
>> conflicts
>> with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the
>> advice
>> to go to Keyboard Preferences.
>>
>> Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".
>>
>>> I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have
>> more
>>> flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose a
>>> 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
>>> shortcuts.
>> I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.
>>
> I agree, as I wrote above.   But I won't be one who wants a "max-set".
>
> But I do want it to be capable of being readily and easily applied by any
> user who
> wants it - I'd probably like to see at as an option as part of the
> installation process
> just like we have the "reset" option now.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
>>>> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
>>>> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
>>>> keyboard to select from that point.
>>>>
>>>> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
>>>> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
>>>> there preferable alternatives?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>


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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Peter Sampson-2


On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 12:06 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
None of us wants long extended arguments about this.

I'm perfectly happy if in Audacity we end up just dropping a few. The A & D beartrap seems totally uncontentious, so let us say it is agreed it is to go.  Indeed all where Gale and Peter agree already.

+1 (obviously)
 

I also think we offer the current bindings (minus A and D) as 'max-list'.  If that later gets added to, modified by others, I don't mind - even if A and D get added back in.  I won't be using it and I don't specially need to be in the conversation about tweaks to it.

Keyboard prefs can be modified so it behaves a bit like theme, in that there are presets (default, max-list, custom).

I'm very -1 on a checkbox for modifying enabling/disabling of shortcuts.  We have another mechanism which is the xml keybindings file.  I'm very -1 on the keybindings being a choice at install time.  I think we front load far too much.  WE have to decide defaults.  Users who have a bit of experience can then decide to fine tune, after using Audacity for a bit.

I'm persuaded ;-))
 

So let's remove the shortcuts we agree on, and add to keyboard prefs built in choice for defaults, max-list, and a custom option.  We WILL have discussion about details of the UI for that, but that is OK.

+1
 

We will have new code in menus.cpp that looks something like this:

if( bUseDefaultShortcuts ){
    c->FreeUp( "Alt+X" );
    c->FreeUp( "Alt+K" );
}

This tells Audacity to free up shortcuts that are assigned in the max-list case.


I am also fine with taking Peter's list and making it the default for DA, including adding a few shortcuts in the effects group (Normalize, Fade, Repair).

If I've got things right, we can proceed with little argument or discussion.  Once I've done the code that makes choosing between max-list or default easy.  Have I got it right?

Sounds good to me - no argument here.

Peter
 

--James.





On 5/27/2017 11:22 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I
see
no problem with those as shortcuts.

Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?
There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
be a long discussion unless we are careful.

I am with James on this, I too would like to see a much shorter set of
shortcuts
set by default in Audacity - opening the ability for users to set their own
preferred shortcuts a lot more easily  - choosing ones that suit them,

And I do support the idea of an easily applied max-list of shorcuts (a
"full set")
for VI users and users like Gale who want/need to work with a large number
of shortcuts - and indeed for users that hist want to have the full set
available
even if thay only use a few of tem.

My reasoning here is that for most humans it is impsooble to remember and
use
more than a small handful of shortcuts - so for most of us a smaller set is
more
useful as it helps add our own more easily.

And yes I realize that, as Gale says, "this will be a long discussion
unless we are
careful".   I did start some work on this a while back (but shelved it
because I
couldn't face the long discussion which I realized would ensue).   You can
see
the results of my thinking in this spreadsheet in my Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rtm64styhhr11s/Basic%20%28default%29%20Set%20of%20Audacity%20shortcuts.xls?dl=0

Resposes to Gale's sggestions in-line below



In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion)

Surely the "max-list" is relatively simple, the full set we have now ?

It's the "min-list" that is gonn be hard for us to agree on.



the ones I would
remove now are:

* Next Tool:  D
* Previous Tool: A

I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool without
knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.

+1

in fact a big plus one to this - it is a beartrap, and an unnecessary bear
trap at that



* Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A

Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?

+1

It is very simple (for sighted users anyway) to simply click anywhere in
the
waveform (or in the waveform pane area, except in a TCP) to remove
a selection.

I'd be interested to hear the VI viewpoint on this - I can see this
remaining in
the "full set"/"max-list" for the benefit of VY users.


* The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled audio.
** Cut: Alt + X
** Delete: Alt + K
** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
** Silence Audio: Alt + L
** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
** Split: Alt + I
** Join: Alt + J
** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J

+1

My spreadsheet shows that I agreed with this a while back ;-)



I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be significantly
changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
shortcuts.

The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are
conflicts
with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the
advice
to go to Keyboard Preferences.

Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".

I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have
more
flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose a
'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
shortcuts.
I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.

I agree, as I wrote above.   But I won't be one who wants a "max-set".

But I do want it to be capable of being readily and easily applied by any
user who
wants it - I'd probably like to see at as an option as part of the
installation process
just like we have the "reset" option now.

Cheers,
Peter.






Gale


On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
keyboard to select from that point.

I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
there preferable alternatives?




Gale





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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
Max list is not a full set. A full set would be no unbound commands
(or as close as we could get to that).

I imagine we can get no more than "somewhat close" so it is as
much (or not) of a discussion problem as the reduced list.



Gale


On 27 May 2017 at 11:22, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I
>> > see
>> > no problem with those as shortcuts.
>> >
>> > Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?
>>
>> There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
>> be a long discussion unless we are careful.
>
>
> I am with James on this, I too would like to see a much shorter set of
> shortcuts
> set by default in Audacity - opening the ability for users to set their own
> preferred shortcuts a lot more easily  - choosing ones that suit them,
>
> And I do support the idea of an easily applied max-list of shorcuts (a "full
> set")
> for VI users and users like Gale who want/need to work with a large number
> of shortcuts - and indeed for users that hist want to have the full set
> available
> even if thay only use a few of tem.
>
> My reasoning here is that for most humans it is impsooble to remember and
> use
> more than a small handful of shortcuts - so for most of us a smaller set is
> more
> useful as it helps add our own more easily.
>
> And yes I realize that, as Gale says, "this will be a long discussion unless
> we are
> careful".   I did start some work on this a while back (but shelved it
> because I
> couldn't face the long discussion which I realized would ensue).   You can
> see
> the results of my thinking in this spreadsheet in my Dropbox:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rtm64styhhr11s/Basic%20%28default%29%20Set%20of%20Audacity%20shortcuts.xls?dl=0
>
> Resposes to Gale's sggestions in-line below
>
>
>>
>> In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion)
>
>
> Surely the "max-list" is relatively simple, the full set we have now ?
>
> It's the "min-list" that is gonn be hard for us to agree on.
>
>
>>
>> the ones I would
>> remove now are:
>>
>> * Next Tool:  D
>> * Previous Tool: A
>>
>> I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool without
>> knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.
>
>
> +1
>
> in fact a big plus one to this - it is a beartrap, and an unnecessary bear
> trap at that
>
>
>>
>>
>> * Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A
>>
>> Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?
>
>
> +1
>
> It is very simple (for sighted users anyway) to simply click anywhere in the
> waveform (or in the waveform pane area, except in a TCP) to remove
> a selection.
>
> I'd be interested to hear the VI viewpoint on this - I can see this
> remaining in
> the "full set"/"max-list" for the benefit of VY users.
>
>>
>>
>> * The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled
>> audio.
>> ** Cut: Alt + X
>> ** Delete: Alt + K
>> ** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
>> ** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
>> ** Silence Audio: Alt + L
>> ** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
>> ** Split: Alt + I
>> ** Join: Alt + J
>> ** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J
>
>
> +1
>
> My spreadsheet shows that I agreed with this a while back ;-)
>
>
>>
>>
>> I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be significantly
>> changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
>> Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
>> shortcuts.
>>
>> The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
>> are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
>> be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
>> default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are
>> conflicts
>> with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the
>> advice
>> to go to Keyboard Preferences.
>>
>> Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".
>>
>> > I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have
>> > more
>> > flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose a
>> > 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
>> > shortcuts.
>>
>> I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.
>
>
> I agree, as I wrote above.   But I won't be one who wants a "max-set".
>
> But I do want it to be capable of being readily and easily applied by any
> user who
> wants it - I'd probably like to see at as an option as part of the
> installation process
> just like we have the "reset" option now.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> > On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
>> >> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
>> >> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
>> >> keyboard to select from that point.
>> >>
>> >> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
>> >> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
>> >> there preferable alternatives?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gale
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 27 May 2017 at 12:06, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> None of us wants long extended arguments about this.
>
> I'm perfectly happy if in Audacity we end up just dropping a few. The A & D
> beartrap seems totally uncontentious, so let us say it is agreed it is to
> go.  Indeed all where Gale and Peter agree already.
>
> I also think we offer the current bindings (minus A and D) as 'max-list'.
> If that later gets added to, modified by others, I don't mind - even if A
> and D get added back in.  I won't be using it and I don't specially need to
> be in the conversation about tweaks to it.
>
> Keyboard prefs can be modified so it behaves a bit like theme, in that there
> are presets (default, max-list, custom).
>
> I'm very -1 on a checkbox for modifying enabling/disabling of shortcuts.  We
> have another mechanism which is the xml keybindings file.

Of course I thought you would be so, but my suggestion was
just a temporary fix on the basis that we may not have a
"max list" agreed to switch to. If so it would be very harsh to
expect labeled audio users to find and re-enable nine shortcuts.


>  I'm very -1 on the keybindings being a choice at install time.
>  I think we front load far too much.

From user perspective, compared to other Windows apps,
I think it perfectly arguable we could offer a few more options
at install and uninstall time.

The reason for the slow Audacity launch times on Windows HDD
machines are I believe still assumed to be due to querying audio
devices.


> WE have to decide defaults.  Users who have a bit of experience
> can then decide to fine tune, after using Audacity for a bit.
>
> So let's remove the shortcuts we agree on, and add to keyboard prefs built
> in choice for defaults, max-list, and a custom option.  We WILL have
> discussion about details of the UI for that, but that is OK.

How does "Custom" fit in with the Import/Export that we have now
in Keyboard Preferences?  All such XML files could be regarded as
"Custom".


> We will have new code in menus.cpp that looks something like this:
>
> if( bUseDefaultShortcuts ){
>     c->FreeUp( "Alt+X" );
>     c->FreeUp( "Alt+K" );
> }
>
> This tells Audacity to free up shortcuts that are assigned in the max-list
> case.
>
>
> I am also fine with taking Peter's list and making it the default for DA,
> including adding a few shortcuts in the effects group (Normalize, Fade,
> Repair).
>
> If I've got things right, we can proceed with little argument or discussion.
> Once I've done the code that makes choosing between max-list or default
> easy.  Have I got it right?

I think Peter's list goes a little too far in its excisions. Sometimes sighted
users will find shortcuts useful for repetitive operations or where the
mouse alternative is fiddly/inadequate.

From Peter's list I would retain as default:

Clip Boundaries > Split  CTRL + I

Move Cursor to Selection Start  LEFT
Move Cursor to Selection End  RIGHT
(these two are important if we have my proposed shortcuts for
Select Previous Clip and Next Clip)

Selection Extend Left SHIFT + LEFT
Selection Extend Right SHIFT + RIGHT
Selection Contract Left CTRL + SHIFT + LEFT
Selection Contract Right CTRL + SHIFT + RIGHT
(I think we want the extra precision of a 1 px adjustment that
these provide, and they are RSI savers).

Move Cursor to Next Label ALT + RIGHT
Move Cursor to Previous Label  ALT + LEFT
(This was a headline feature in 2.1.3 release notes)

Move Focus to Previous Track UP
Move Focus to Previous and Select SHIFT + UP
Move Focus to Next Track DOWN
Move Focus to Next and Select  SHIFT + DOWN
Toggle Focused Track  RETURN  or ENTER
(These are much quicker in multi-track projects than modified
clicks in Track Control Panels)

Selection Tool F1
Envelope Tool F2
Draw Tool F3
Zoom Tool F4
Time Shift Tool F5
Multi-Tool F6
(I think F1 is heavily recommended in Manual and Forum. I might
accept removing F3, F4 and F6 though).


Move backward through currently focused toolbar… CTRL + SHIFT + F6
Move forward through currently focused toolbar… CTRL + F6
(Needed to get out of Toolbars without modifying the selection or
track selectedness).



Gale



> On 5/27/2017 11:22 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I
>>>
>>> see
>>>>
>>>> no problem with those as shortcuts.
>>>>
>>>> Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?
>>>
>>> There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
>>> be a long discussion unless we are careful.
>>>
>> I am with James on this, I too would like to see a much shorter set of
>> shortcuts
>> set by default in Audacity - opening the ability for users to set their
>> own
>> preferred shortcuts a lot more easily  - choosing ones that suit them,
>>
>> And I do support the idea of an easily applied max-list of shorcuts (a
>> "full set")
>> for VI users and users like Gale who want/need to work with a large number
>> of shortcuts - and indeed for users that hist want to have the full set
>> available
>> even if thay only use a few of tem.
>>
>> My reasoning here is that for most humans it is impsooble to remember and
>> use
>> more than a small handful of shortcuts - so for most of us a smaller set
>> is
>> more
>> useful as it helps add our own more easily.
>>
>> And yes I realize that, as Gale says, "this will be a long discussion
>> unless we are
>> careful".   I did start some work on this a while back (but shelved it
>> because I
>> couldn't face the long discussion which I realized would ensue).   You can
>> see
>> the results of my thinking in this spreadsheet in my Dropbox:
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rtm64styhhr11s/Basic%20%28default%29%20Set%20of%20Audacity%20shortcuts.xls?dl=0
>>
>> Resposes to Gale's sggestions in-line below
>>
>>
>>
>>> In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion)
>>
>>
>> Surely the "max-list" is relatively simple, the full set we have now ?
>>
>> It's the "min-list" that is gonn be hard for us to agree on.
>>
>>
>>
>>> the ones I would
>>> remove now are:
>>>
>>> * Next Tool:  D
>>> * Previous Tool: A
>>>
>>> I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool without
>>> knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> in fact a big plus one to this - it is a beartrap, and an unnecessary bear
>> trap at that
>>
>>
>>
>>> * Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A
>>>
>>> Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> It is very simple (for sighted users anyway) to simply click anywhere in
>> the
>> waveform (or in the waveform pane area, except in a TCP) to remove
>> a selection.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear the VI viewpoint on this - I can see this
>> remaining in
>> the "full set"/"max-list" for the benefit of VY users.
>>
>>
>>> * The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled
>>> audio.
>>> ** Cut: Alt + X
>>> ** Delete: Alt + K
>>> ** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
>>> ** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
>>> ** Silence Audio: Alt + L
>>> ** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
>>> ** Split: Alt + I
>>> ** Join: Alt + J
>>> ** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> My spreadsheet shows that I agreed with this a while back ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be
>>> significantly
>>> changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
>>> Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
>>> shortcuts.
>>>
>>> The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
>>> are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
>>> be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
>>> default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are
>>> conflicts
>>> with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the
>>> advice
>>> to go to Keyboard Preferences.
>>>
>>> Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".
>>>
>>>> I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have
>>>
>>> more
>>>>
>>>> flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose a
>>>> 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
>>>> shortcuts.
>>>
>>> I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.
>>>
>> I agree, as I wrote above.   But I won't be one who wants a "max-set".
>>
>> But I do want it to be capable of being readily and easily applied by any
>> user who
>> wants it - I'd probably like to see at as an option as part of the
>> installation process
>> just like we have the "reset" option now.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
>>>>> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
>>>>> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
>>>>> keyboard to select from that point.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
>>>>> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
>>>>> there preferable alternatives?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

James Crook

With this commit KeyPreferences now has two choices of defaults.
https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/216ead22141e8f0a6d1c891e799560e9d66163a4

At some point I will make the defaults we start with the reduced set.  
It isn't so yet.  This commit is 'proof of concept' of how to give users
a choice of two different default sets of bindings.


On 5/27/2017 6:08 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> On 27 May 2017 at 12:06, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> None of us wants long extended arguments about this.
>>
>> I'm perfectly happy if in Audacity we end up just dropping a few. The A & D
>> beartrap seems totally uncontentious, so let us say it is agreed it is to
>> go.  Indeed all where Gale and Peter agree already.
>>
>> I also think we offer the current bindings (minus A and D) as 'max-list'.
>> If that later gets added to, modified by others, I don't mind - even if A
>> and D get added back in.  I won't be using it and I don't specially need to
>> be in the conversation about tweaks to it.
>>
>> Keyboard prefs can be modified so it behaves a bit like theme, in that there
>> are presets (default, max-list, custom).
>>
>> I'm very -1 on a checkbox for modifying enabling/disabling of shortcuts.  We
>> have another mechanism which is the xml keybindings file.
> Of course I thought you would be so, but my suggestion was
> just a temporary fix on the basis that we may not have a
> "max list" agreed to switch to. If so it would be very harsh to
> expect labeled audio users to find and re-enable nine shortcuts.
>
>
>>   I'm very -1 on the keybindings being a choice at install time.
>>   I think we front load far too much.
>  From user perspective, compared to other Windows apps,
> I think it perfectly arguable we could offer a few more options
> at install and uninstall time.
>
> The reason for the slow Audacity launch times on Windows HDD
> machines are I believe still assumed to be due to querying audio
> devices.
My 'issue' is that new users may have difficulty understanding what the
shortcuts are about.  They already have a lot to learn, and I don't
think it helpful to require them to make a decision about something
which (for basic use) we can have already decided for them.

>
>> WE have to decide defaults.  Users who have a bit of experience
>> can then decide to fine tune, after using Audacity for a bit.
>>
>> So let's remove the shortcuts we agree on, and add to keyboard prefs built
>> in choice for defaults, max-list, and a custom option.  We WILL have
>> discussion about details of the UI for that, but that is OK.
> How does "Custom" fit in with the Import/Export that we have now
> in Keyboard Preferences?  All such XML files could be regarded as
> "Custom".
So this is why I have done the proof of concept.  You can try the
KeyboardPreferences out now.  I did not use the word 'custom' in the end.

>> We will have new code in menus.cpp that looks something like this:
>>
>> if( bUseDefaultShortcuts ){
>>      c->FreeUp( "Alt+X" );
>>      c->FreeUp( "Alt+K" );
>> }
>>
>> This tells Audacity to free up shortcuts that are assigned in the max-list
>> case.
>>
>>
>> I am also fine with taking Peter's list and making it the default for DA,
>> including adding a few shortcuts in the effects group (Normalize, Fade,
>> Repair).
>>
>> If I've got things right, we can proceed with little argument or discussion.
>> Once I've done the code that makes choosing between max-list or default
>> easy.  Have I got it right?
> I think Peter's list goes a little too far in its excisions. Sometimes sighted
> users will find shortcuts useful for repetitive operations or where the
> mouse alternative is fiddly/inadequate.
>
>  From Peter's list I would retain as default:
>
> Clip Boundaries > Split  CTRL + I
>
> Move Cursor to Selection Start  LEFT
> Move Cursor to Selection End  RIGHT
> (these two are important if we have my proposed shortcuts for
> Select Previous Clip and Next Clip)
>
> Selection Extend Left SHIFT + LEFT
> Selection Extend Right SHIFT + RIGHT
> Selection Contract Left CTRL + SHIFT + LEFT
> Selection Contract Right CTRL + SHIFT + RIGHT
> (I think we want the extra precision of a 1 px adjustment that
> these provide, and they are RSI savers).
>
> Move Cursor to Next Label ALT + RIGHT
> Move Cursor to Previous Label  ALT + LEFT
> (This was a headline feature in 2.1.3 release notes)
>
> Move Focus to Previous Track UP
> Move Focus to Previous and Select SHIFT + UP
> Move Focus to Next Track DOWN
> Move Focus to Next and Select  SHIFT + DOWN
> Toggle Focused Track  RETURN  or ENTER
> (These are much quicker in multi-track projects than modified
> clicks in Track Control Panels)
>
> Selection Tool F1
> Envelope Tool F2
> Draw Tool F3
> Zoom Tool F4
> Time Shift Tool F5
> Multi-Tool F6
> (I think F1 is heavily recommended in Manual and Forum. I might
> accept removing F3, F4 and F6 though).
>
>
> Move backward through currently focused toolbar… CTRL + SHIFT + F6
> Move forward through currently focused toolbar… CTRL + F6
> (Needed to get out of Toolbars without modifying the selection or
> track selectedness).

For the proof of concept, I removed:

          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "A" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "D" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Ctrl+Shift+A" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+X" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+K" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+X" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+K" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+L" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+C" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+I" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+J" );
          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+J" );


If you and Peter happen to agree on others you both want to remove for
2.2.0, that's fine with me.  If not, the list above is what we remove
for 2.2.0.

I'll think about whether to do a hybrid between Peters draconian
cutbacks on shortcuts, and your less draconian cutbacks for DA.  DA may
well be losing the 6 tools and with a bit of tweaking for clip dragging,
just do multi-tool, freeing up F1 to F6 anyway.  Anyway, our focus here
is on Audacity 2.2.0.

--James.



>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
>> On 5/27/2017 11:22 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I
>>>> see
>>>>> no problem with those as shortcuts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?
>>>> There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
>>>> be a long discussion unless we are careful.
>>>>
>>> I am with James on this, I too would like to see a much shorter set of
>>> shortcuts
>>> set by default in Audacity - opening the ability for users to set their
>>> own
>>> preferred shortcuts a lot more easily  - choosing ones that suit them,
>>>
>>> And I do support the idea of an easily applied max-list of shorcuts (a
>>> "full set")
>>> for VI users and users like Gale who want/need to work with a large number
>>> of shortcuts - and indeed for users that hist want to have the full set
>>> available
>>> even if thay only use a few of tem.
>>>
>>> My reasoning here is that for most humans it is impsooble to remember and
>>> use
>>> more than a small handful of shortcuts - so for most of us a smaller set
>>> is
>>> more
>>> useful as it helps add our own more easily.
>>>
>>> And yes I realize that, as Gale says, "this will be a long discussion
>>> unless we are
>>> careful".   I did start some work on this a while back (but shelved it
>>> because I
>>> couldn't face the long discussion which I realized would ensue).   You can
>>> see
>>> the results of my thinking in this spreadsheet in my Dropbox:
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rtm64styhhr11s/Basic%20%28default%29%20Set%20of%20Audacity%20shortcuts.xls?dl=0
>>>
>>> Resposes to Gale's sggestions in-line below
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion)
>>>
>>> Surely the "max-list" is relatively simple, the full set we have now ?
>>>
>>> It's the "min-list" that is gonn be hard for us to agree on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> the ones I would
>>>> remove now are:
>>>>
>>>> * Next Tool:  D
>>>> * Previous Tool: A
>>>>
>>>> I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool without
>>>> knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.
>>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> in fact a big plus one to this - it is a beartrap, and an unnecessary bear
>>> trap at that
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> * Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A
>>>>
>>>> Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?
>>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> It is very simple (for sighted users anyway) to simply click anywhere in
>>> the
>>> waveform (or in the waveform pane area, except in a TCP) to remove
>>> a selection.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear the VI viewpoint on this - I can see this
>>> remaining in
>>> the "full set"/"max-list" for the benefit of VY users.
>>>
>>>
>>>> * The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled
>>>> audio.
>>>> ** Cut: Alt + X
>>>> ** Delete: Alt + K
>>>> ** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
>>>> ** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
>>>> ** Silence Audio: Alt + L
>>>> ** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
>>>> ** Split: Alt + I
>>>> ** Join: Alt + J
>>>> ** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J
>>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> My spreadsheet shows that I agreed with this a while back ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be
>>>> significantly
>>>> changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
>>>> Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
>>>> shortcuts.
>>>>
>>>> The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
>>>> are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
>>>> be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
>>>> default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are
>>>> conflicts
>>>> with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the
>>>> advice
>>>> to go to Keyboard Preferences.
>>>>
>>>> Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".
>>>>
>>>>> I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we have
>>>> more
>>>>> flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose a
>>>>> 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
>>>>> shortcuts.
>>>> I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.
>>>>
>>> I agree, as I wrote above.   But I won't be one who wants a "max-set".
>>>
>>> But I do want it to be capable of being readily and easily applied by any
>>> user who
>>> wants it - I'd probably like to see at as an option as part of the
>>> installation process
>>> just like we have the "reset" option now.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Peter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
>>>>>> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
>>>>>> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
>>>>>> keyboard to select from that point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
>>>>>> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
>>>>>> there preferable alternatives?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
On 27 May 2017 at 20:35, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> With this commit KeyPreferences now has two choices of defaults.
> https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/216ead22141e8f0a6d1c891e799560e9d66163a4
>
> At some point I will make the defaults we start with the reduced set.  It
> isn't so yet.  This commit is 'proof of concept' of how to give users a
> choice of two different default sets of bindings.
>
>
>
> On 5/27/2017 6:08 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> On 27 May 2017 at 12:06, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> None of us wants long extended arguments about this.
>>>
>>> I'm perfectly happy if in Audacity we end up just dropping a few. The A &
>>> D
>>> beartrap seems totally uncontentious, so let us say it is agreed it is to
>>> go.  Indeed all where Gale and Peter agree already.
>>>
>>> I also think we offer the current bindings (minus A and D) as 'max-list'.
>>> If that later gets added to, modified by others, I don't mind - even if A
>>> and D get added back in.  I won't be using it and I don't specially need
>>> to
>>> be in the conversation about tweaks to it.
>>>
>>> Keyboard prefs can be modified so it behaves a bit like theme, in that
>>> there
>>> are presets (default, max-list, custom).
>>>
>>> I'm very -1 on a checkbox for modifying enabling/disabling of shortcuts.
>>> We
>>> have another mechanism which is the xml keybindings file.
>>
>> Of course I thought you would be so, but my suggestion was
>> just a temporary fix on the basis that we may not have a
>> "max list" agreed to switch to. If so it would be very harsh to
>> expect labeled audio users to find and re-enable nine shortcuts.
>>
>>
>>>   I'm very -1 on the keybindings being a choice at install time.
>>>   I think we front load far too much.
>>
>>  From user perspective, compared to other Windows apps,
>> I think it perfectly arguable we could offer a few more options
>> at install and uninstall time.
>>
>> The reason for the slow Audacity launch times on Windows HDD
>> machines are I believe still assumed to be due to querying audio
>> devices.
>
> My 'issue' is that new users may have difficulty understanding what the
> shortcuts are about.  They already have a lot to learn, and I don't think it
> helpful to require them to make a decision about something which (for basic
> use) we can have already decided for them.
>
>>
>>> WE have to decide defaults.  Users who have a bit of experience
>>> can then decide to fine tune, after using Audacity for a bit.
>>>
>>> So let's remove the shortcuts we agree on, and add to keyboard prefs
>>> built
>>> in choice for defaults, max-list, and a custom option.  We WILL have
>>> discussion about details of the UI for that, but that is OK.
>>
>> How does "Custom" fit in with the Import/Export that we have now
>> in Keyboard Preferences?  All such XML files could be regarded as
>> "Custom".
>
> So this is why I have done the proof of concept.  You can try the
> KeyboardPreferences out now.  I did not use the word 'custom' in the end.
>
>
>>> We will have new code in menus.cpp that looks something like this:
>>>
>>> if( bUseDefaultShortcuts ){
>>>      c->FreeUp( "Alt+X" );
>>>      c->FreeUp( "Alt+K" );
>>> }
>>>
>>> This tells Audacity to free up shortcuts that are assigned in the
>>> max-list
>>> case.
>>>
>>>
>>> I am also fine with taking Peter's list and making it the default for DA,
>>> including adding a few shortcuts in the effects group (Normalize, Fade,
>>> Repair).
>>>
>>> If I've got things right, we can proceed with little argument or
>>> discussion.
>>> Once I've done the code that makes choosing between max-list or default
>>> easy.  Have I got it right?
>>
>> I think Peter's list goes a little too far in its excisions. Sometimes
>> sighted
>> users will find shortcuts useful for repetitive operations or where the
>> mouse alternative is fiddly/inadequate.
>>
>>  From Peter's list I would retain as default:
>>
>> Clip Boundaries > Split  CTRL + I
>>
>> Move Cursor to Selection Start  LEFT
>> Move Cursor to Selection End  RIGHT
>> (these two are important if we have my proposed shortcuts for
>> Select Previous Clip and Next Clip)
>>
>> Selection Extend Left SHIFT + LEFT
>> Selection Extend Right SHIFT + RIGHT
>> Selection Contract Left CTRL + SHIFT + LEFT
>> Selection Contract Right CTRL + SHIFT + RIGHT
>> (I think we want the extra precision of a 1 px adjustment that
>> these provide, and they are RSI savers).
>>
>> Move Cursor to Next Label ALT + RIGHT
>> Move Cursor to Previous Label  ALT + LEFT
>> (This was a headline feature in 2.1.3 release notes)
>>
>> Move Focus to Previous Track UP
>> Move Focus to Previous and Select SHIFT + UP
>> Move Focus to Next Track DOWN
>> Move Focus to Next and Select  SHIFT + DOWN
>> Toggle Focused Track  RETURN  or ENTER
>> (These are much quicker in multi-track projects than modified
>> clicks in Track Control Panels)
>>
>> Selection Tool F1
>> Envelope Tool F2
>> Draw Tool F3
>> Zoom Tool F4
>> Time Shift Tool F5
>> Multi-Tool F6
>> (I think F1 is heavily recommended in Manual and Forum. I might
>> accept removing F3, F4 and F6 though).
>>
>>
>> Move backward through currently focused toolbar… CTRL + SHIFT + F6
>> Move forward through currently focused toolbar… CTRL + F6
>> (Needed to get out of Toolbars without modifying the selection or
>> track selectedness).
>
>
> For the proof of concept, I removed:
>
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "A" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "D" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Ctrl+Shift+A" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+X" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+K" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+X" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+K" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+L" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+C" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+I" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+J" );
>          bDeleteBinding |= ( mNewKeys[i] == "Alt+Shift+J" );
>
>
> If you and Peter happen to agree on others you both want to remove for
> 2.2.0, that's fine with me.  If not, the list above is what we remove for
> 2.2.0.

Assuming I did not miss any shortcuts on Peter's list, then any greyed
bindings on his list which I did not ask to retain are bindings that Peter and
I agree can be removed from the default list.


Gale

> I'll think about whether to do a hybrid between Peters draconian cutbacks on
> shortcuts, and your less draconian cutbacks for DA.  DA may well be losing
> the 6 tools and with a bit of tweaking for clip dragging, just do
> multi-tool, freeing up F1 to F6 anyway.  Anyway, our focus here is on
> Audacity 2.2.0.
>
> --James.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 5/27/2017 11:22 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27 May 2017 at 00:29, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those may later become (optional) buttons on the selection toolbar.  I
>>>>>
>>>>> see
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no problem with those as shortcuts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you suggest some default shortcuts to remove too?
>>>>>
>>>>> There are not many that I would personally remove and I think this will
>>>>> be a long discussion unless we are careful.
>>>>>
>>>> I am with James on this, I too would like to see a much shorter set of
>>>> shortcuts
>>>> set by default in Audacity - opening the ability for users to set their
>>>> own
>>>> preferred shortcuts a lot more easily  - choosing ones that suit them,
>>>>
>>>> And I do support the idea of an easily applied max-list of shorcuts (a
>>>> "full set")
>>>> for VI users and users like Gale who want/need to work with a large
>>>> number
>>>> of shortcuts - and indeed for users that hist want to have the full set
>>>> available
>>>> even if thay only use a few of tem.
>>>>
>>>> My reasoning here is that for most humans it is impsooble to remember
>>>> and
>>>> use
>>>> more than a small handful of shortcuts - so for most of us a smaller set
>>>> is
>>>> more
>>>> useful as it helps add our own more easily.
>>>>
>>>> And yes I realize that, as Gale says, "this will be a long discussion
>>>> unless we are
>>>> careful".   I did start some work on this a while back (but shelved it
>>>> because I
>>>> couldn't face the long discussion which I realized would ensue).   You
>>>> can
>>>> see
>>>> the results of my thinking in this spreadsheet in my Dropbox:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rtm64styhhr11s/Basic%20%28default%29%20Set%20of%20Audacity%20shortcuts.xls?dl=0
>>>>
>>>> Resposes to Gale's sggestions in-line below
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In the absence of a "max" list (yet another discussion)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Surely the "max-list" is relatively simple, the full set we have now ?
>>>>
>>>> It's the "min-list" that is gonn be hard for us to agree on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the ones I would
>>>>> remove now are:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Next Tool:  D
>>>>> * Previous Tool: A
>>>>>
>>>>> I am guessing when users get stuck in Envelope Tool or MultiTool
>>>>> without
>>>>> knowing why, these shortcuts are probably the cause.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> in fact a big plus one to this - it is a beartrap, and an unnecessary
>>>> bear
>>>> trap at that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> * Select None: Ctrl + Shift + A
>>>>>
>>>>> Not useful enough even to VI users to justify a default binding?
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> It is very simple (for sighted users anyway) to simply click anywhere in
>>>> the
>>>> waveform (or in the waveform pane area, except in a TCP) to remove
>>>> a selection.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be interested to hear the VI viewpoint on this - I can see this
>>>> remaining in
>>>> the "full set"/"max-list" for the benefit of VY users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> * The variants of editing commands that are for operating on labeled
>>>>> audio.
>>>>> ** Cut: Alt + X
>>>>> ** Delete: Alt + K
>>>>> ** Split Cut: Alt + Shift + X
>>>>> ** Split Delete: Alt + Shift + K
>>>>> ** Silence Audio: Alt + L
>>>>> ** Copy: Alt + Shift + C
>>>>> ** Split: Alt + I
>>>>> ** Join: Alt + J
>>>>> ** Detach at Silences: Alt + Shift + J
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> My spreadsheet shows that I agreed with this a while back ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm uncertain about this, unless the feature is likely to be
>>>>> significantly
>>>>> changed in near future so that these bindings all becomes redundant.
>>>>> Users of the current feature are unlikely to be amused by losing nine
>>>>> shortcuts.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Edit > Labels submenu is confusing because the labeled audio items
>>>>> are not marked as such, but wherever those items go, would a checkbox
>>>>> be possible in that menu "Shortcuts for Labeled Audio (on/off)", off by
>>>>> default? If checked on, it enables the above shortcuts. If there are
>>>>> conflicts
>>>>> with existing bindings, throw a message listing the conflicts with the
>>>>> advice
>>>>> to go to Keyboard Preferences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or put that on hold until we do have a "max list".
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like us to end up with somewhat fewer default shortcuts, so we
>>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>> more
>>>>>>
>>>>>> flexibility for user assigned ones, and maybe ask VI users to propose
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> 'shortcuts max' xml file for those who do want lots of pre defined
>>>>>> shortcuts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think it is just VI who may want a "max set" of bindings.
>>>>>
>>>> I agree, as I wrote above.   But I won't be one who wants a "max-set".
>>>>
>>>> But I do want it to be capable of being readily and easily applied by
>>>> any
>>>> user who
>>>> wants it - I'd probably like to see at as an option as part of the
>>>> installation process
>>>> just like we have the "reset" option now.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Peter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/26/2017 11:06 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think these commands deserve a default shortcut. The commands
>>>>>>> avoid having to zoom out if you are already zoomed in, and it is then
>>>>>>> easy to use HOME to navigate to the start of the clip and use the
>>>>>>> keyboard to select from that point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I find ALT + P (for previous) and ALT + N (for next) to be available
>>>>>>> and to work on the three platforms. Is that a good choice, or are
>>>>>>> there preferable alternatives?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott
Many thanks, Cliff. Excellent report. I did not change much except:

1 Added * (macOS) before the first sentence in the Release Note
2 Wrapped the first sentence in the Release Note in triple single
quotes '''<text>''' which is Wiki formatting to make it bold.
3 Added a "Regression" flag.
4 Added (Mac) at the front of the bug title. This makes it a little easier
to quickly scan the list for platform-specificity.

Generally we'd set "Version" to the current alpha we're working on, so
2.2.0-alpha in this case.

The bug description (Comment 0) is a good place to give the Audacity
version the problem started in, if known. I just say "Regression on 2.1.1"
if the problem started in 2.1.2.


Gale


On 27 May 2017 at 04:59, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Added the bug, 1652. Feel free to modify as you see necessary or give suggestions so I can modify it. I wasn't sure what to put for Version of Audacity since it started with 2.1.2. Use "Unspecified" since it is multiple versions that have the issue?
>
> Cliff
>
>> On May 26, 2017, at 9:53 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Gale. I'll add it. The Option-N I setup myself to bring up the Normalize Effect as I use that very often and it's handy to just get it that way.
>>
>> There is another "bug" that we discussed in the process of doing 2.1.3 where with the normal settings in MacOS the enter key doesn't focus on the OK button unless the dialog has a text entry which, when used, brings the focus to the dialog. Most times it requires the mouse to click OK. I don't think that was recorded as a bug, but maybe an enhancement. This would be a major improvement for Mac users.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>> On May 26, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 27 May 2017 at 01:22, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro
>>>
>>> I looked at Apple's lists of keyboard shortcuts:
>>>
>>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201236
>>>
>>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204434
>>>
>>> and failed to find Option + N (Mac equivalent of Alt). I don't think we should
>>> be influenced because some app could add a non-default global shortcut.
>>>
>>> Is this an Automator script you are using?
>>>
>>>
>>>> since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character
>>>> ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard
>>>> options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the
>>>> letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good
>>>> idea to me.
>>>
>>> It's yet another regression on 2.1.1. I looked, but I don't see it on Bugzilla.
>>> Did you add it? You're welcome to do so to get some practice in :=).
>>> I think it P3, so it should have a release note. Let me know.
>>>
>>> There is a kind of workaround in my testing, which is to use System
>>> Preferences (Keyboard > Shortcuts tab, App Shortcuts, use the "+"
>>> button to add Audacity). This does display the ^ for Ctrl in the Audacity
>>> menu. But Audacity's Keyboard Preferences does not see the Apple
>>> shortcut, and adding a binding in the Audacity preferences is still
>>> overridden by the Apple shortcut.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Cliff Scott
On 27 May 2017 at 03:53, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks Gale. I'll add it. The Option-N I setup myself to bring up the Normalize Effect as I use that very often and it's handy to just get it that way.
>
> There is another "bug" that we discussed in the process of doing 2.1.3 where with the normal settings in MacOS the enter key doesn't focus on the OK button unless the dialog has a text entry which, when used, brings the focus to the dialog. Most times it requires the mouse to click OK. I don't think that was recorded as a bug, but maybe an enhancement. This would be a major improvement for Mac users.

Is that not:
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1329 ?

I find a single Tab then Enter is all that is needed to apply the
default settings
of an effect.


Gale


>> On May 26, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 27 May 2017 at 01:22, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro
>>
>> I looked at Apple's lists of keyboard shortcuts:
>>
>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201236
>>
>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204434
>>
>> and failed to find Option + N (Mac equivalent of Alt). I don't think we should
>> be influenced because some app could add a non-default global shortcut.
>>
>> Is this an Automator script you are using?
>>
>>
>>> since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character
>>> ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard
>>> options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the
>>> letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good
>>> idea to me.
>>
>> It's yet another regression on 2.1.1. I looked, but I don't see it on Bugzilla.
>> Did you add it? You're welcome to do so to get some practice in :=).
>> I think it P3, so it should have a release note. Let me know.
>>
>> There is a kind of workaround in my testing, which is to use System
>> Preferences (Keyboard > Shortcuts tab, App Shortcuts, use the "+"
>> button to add Audacity). This does display the ^ for Ctrl in the Audacity
>> menu. But Audacity's Keyboard Preferences does not see the Apple
>> shortcut, and adding a binding in the Audacity preferences is still
>> overridden by the Apple shortcut.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Cliff Scott

> On May 27, 2017, at 9:56 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 27 May 2017 at 03:53, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thanks Gale. I'll add it. The Option-N I setup myself to bring up the Normalize Effect as I use that very often and it's handy to just get it that way.
>>
>> There is another "bug" that we discussed in the process of doing 2.1.3 where with the normal settings in MacOS the enter key doesn't focus on the OK button unless the dialog has a text entry which, when used, brings the focus to the dialog. Most times it requires the mouse to click OK. I don't think that was recorded as a bug, but maybe an enhancement. This would be a major improvement for Mac users.
>
> Is that not:
> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1329 ?

Yes it is. I didn't remember if it was logged as a bug.
>
> I find a single Tab then Enter is all that is needed to apply the
> default settings
> of an effect.

True, at least is every case I've tried. Even that, of course, shouldn't be necessary, but is a fairly simple work around.

Cliff

>
>
> Gale
>
>
>>> On May 26, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 27 May 2017 at 01:22, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro
>>>
>>> I looked at Apple's lists of keyboard shortcuts:
>>>
>>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201236
>>>
>>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204434
>>>
>>> and failed to find Option + N (Mac equivalent of Alt). I don't think we should
>>> be influenced because some app could add a non-default global shortcut.
>>>
>>> Is this an Automator script you are using?
>>>
>>>
>>>> since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character
>>>> ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard
>>>> options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the
>>>> letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good
>>>> idea to me.
>>>
>>> It's yet another regression on 2.1.1. I looked, but I don't see it on Bugzilla.
>>> Did you add it? You're welcome to do so to get some practice in :=).
>>> I think it P3, so it should have a release note. Let me know.
>>>
>>> There is a kind of workaround in my testing, which is to use System
>>> Preferences (Keyboard > Shortcuts tab, App Shortcuts, use the "+"
>>> button to add Audacity). This does display the ^ for Ctrl in the Audacity
>>> menu. But Audacity's Keyboard Preferences does not see the Apple
>>> shortcut, and adding a binding in the Audacity preferences is still
>>> overridden by the Apple shortcut.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Cliff Scott
In reply to this post by Gale
Thanks for the feedback and help, Gale. Will try to remember those points if I ever do another one. I did think I had added the regression flag, but maybe was just planning on it and didn't get it done.

Cliff

> On May 27, 2017, at 9:48 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Many thanks, Cliff. Excellent report. I did not change much except:
>
> 1 Added * (macOS) before the first sentence in the Release Note
> 2 Wrapped the first sentence in the Release Note in triple single
> quotes '''<text>''' which is Wiki formatting to make it bold.
> 3 Added a "Regression" flag.
> 4 Added (Mac) at the front of the bug title. This makes it a little easier
> to quickly scan the list for platform-specificity.
>
> Generally we'd set "Version" to the current alpha we're working on, so
> 2.2.0-alpha in this case.
>
> The bug description (Comment 0) is a good place to give the Audacity
> version the problem started in, if known. I just say "Regression on 2.1.1"
> if the problem started in 2.1.2.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 27 May 2017 at 04:59, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Added the bug, 1652. Feel free to modify as you see necessary or give suggestions so I can modify it. I wasn't sure what to put for Version of Audacity since it started with 2.1.2. Use "Unspecified" since it is multiple versions that have the issue?
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>> On May 26, 2017, at 9:53 PM, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Gale. I'll add it. The Option-N I setup myself to bring up the Normalize Effect as I use that very often and it's handy to just get it that way.
>>>
>>> There is another "bug" that we discussed in the process of doing 2.1.3 where with the normal settings in MacOS the enter key doesn't focus on the OK button unless the dialog has a text entry which, when used, brings the focus to the dialog. Most times it requires the mouse to click OK. I don't think that was recorded as a bug, but maybe an enhancement. This would be a major improvement for Mac users.
>>>
>>> Cliff
>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 27 May 2017 at 01:22, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Well, I use Alt+N to bring up the Normalize macro
>>>>
>>>> I looked at Apple's lists of keyboard shortcuts:
>>>>
>>>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201236
>>>>
>>>> * https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204434
>>>>
>>>> and failed to find Option + N (Mac equivalent of Alt). I don't think we should
>>>> be influenced because some app could add a non-default global shortcut.
>>>>
>>>> Is this an Automator script you are using?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> since Ctrl+anything shortcuts right now don't display the Ctrl character
>>>>> ion the Mac. Fix the Ctrl display and it opens up a whole bunch of keyboard
>>>>> options for Mac users. Of course I suppose one could assume that the
>>>>> letter without a modifier was Ctrl+letter, but that doesn't sound like a good
>>>>> idea to me.
>>>>
>>>> It's yet another regression on 2.1.1. I looked, but I don't see it on Bugzilla.
>>>> Did you add it? You're welcome to do so to get some practice in :=).
>>>> I think it P3, so it should have a release note. Let me know.
>>>>
>>>> There is a kind of workaround in my testing, which is to use System
>>>> Preferences (Keyboard > Shortcuts tab, App Shortcuts, use the "+"
>>>> button to add Audacity). This does display the ^ for Ctrl in the Audacity
>>>> menu. But Audacity's Keyboard Preferences does not see the Apple
>>>> shortcut, and adding a binding in the Audacity preferences is still
>>>> overridden by the Apple shortcut.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Peter Sampson-2
James wrote:
>If you and Peter happen to agree on others you both want to remove for
>2.2.0, that's fine with me.  If not, the list above is what we remove for 2.2.0.

Gale any chance tou can agree on removing the Alt+Left and Alt+Right that
were added recently for 2.1.3?

I'm assuming that they would remain in the full-fat "max-list".

Peter.

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Re: Possible default shortcuts for Select Previous Clip / Next Clip

Gale
Administrator
Do you want them freed for some action that you perform?  If so
you could set them to AltGr + Left / Right. The shortcuts will show
in the menus as Ctrl + Alt + Left / Right, but you will only have to
press AltGr + Left / Right to action the shortcuts.

The new move to labels feature and its shortcuts were given
headline billing in the 2.1.3 Release Notes:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Release_Notes_2.1.3#Improvements .

So personally I see very good reason to retain them as default.



Gale


On 28 May 2017 at 08:35, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> James wrote:
>>If you and Peter happen to agree on others you both want to remove for
>>2.2.0, that's fine with me.  If not, the list above is what we remove for
>> 2.2.0.
>
> Gale any chance tou can agree on removing the Alt+Left and Alt+Right that
> were added recently for 2.1.3?
>
> I'm assuming that they would remain in the full-fat "max-list".
>
> Peter.
>
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