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Preferences text.

James Crook
Now that we have the help button (which we all wanted) and the help text
that Gale asked for, I assume we are OK to reduce the wording of the
autoselect preference to 'Auto-select'.  Yes?


I am not going to start unilaterally making the other wording reductions
that simplify and save space in the preferences.  I've done that in DA
already, and don't have the patience to argue them through.  I would
like to do Auto-select though, as we have already spent a considerable
time discussing and agreeing it.  Can I go ahead with that one?


--James.


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Re: Preferences text.

Gale
Administrator
On 6 June 2017 at 23:51, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Now that we have the help button (which we all wanted) and the help text
> that Gale asked for

What help text was that?


> I assume we are OK to reduce the wording of the autoselect preference
> to 'Auto-select'.  Yes?

As you know, I prefer "Auto-select audio for editing" because it gives more
idea what it does, it is still shorter than what we have now, and we don't
yet have contextual help (which I now understand may never happen).

At the moment it is 2 - 1 in favour of "Auto-select".  I assume majority
voting will prevail.


> I am not going to start unilaterally making the other wording reductions
> that simplify and save space in the preferences.  I've done that in DA
> already, and don't have the patience to argue them through.

Then why James did you ask me to review that? Have you looked
at my suggestions for shorter text? I agree with shorter text if
it does not go too far (given there is no contextual help). Quite a few
of my changes are exactly as you suggested, whereas for others I
prefer more user-friendly words, or a few more words than your
shortening.

I forgot to include "Grayscale" in Spectrograms Preferences. I like
that shortening too.

Having done that work I expect "something" to happen beyond
shortening only the auto-select text, even if most of the labels
still end up as your choices.


Gale

> I would like to do Auto-select though, as we have already spent a
> considerable time discussing and agreeing it. Can I go ahead
> with that one?

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Re: Preferences text.

James Crook
Thanks Gale for making concrete suggestions for shortenings to the
preferences text that you are happy with.



On 6/7/2017 2:34 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> On 6 June 2017 at 23:51, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Now that we have the help button (which we all wanted) and the help text
>> that Gale asked for
> What help text was that?
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Selecting_Audio_-_the_basics


>
>> I assume we are OK to reduce the wording of the autoselect preference
>> to 'Auto-select'.  Yes?
> As you know, I prefer "Auto-select audio for editing" because it gives more
> idea what it does, it is still shorter than what we have now, and we don't
> yet have contextual help (which I now understand may never happen).
OK.  That's what I've done.  It now reads "Auto-select audio for editing
".  In DA I continue to have "Auto-select", which I prefer.  When I
write about 'editing' I tend to mean cut/copy/paste time shift, rather
than applying effects, so for me 'audio for editing' detracts from the
wording.

"Auto-select audio for editing " is better than what we had.


> At the moment it is 2 - 1 in favour of "Auto-select".  I assume majority
> voting will prevail.
Well, maybe, but generally we try to take steps that everyone agrees are
an improvement on what we had previously.  I am hearing you as saying
you think "Auto-select" is worse than what we had previously.  I think
if someone cares enough about the precise wording they will raise a
vote, and then it will be decided by vote.  Or if it is actually 3-1 and
the 3 feel strongly, then majority view will prevail.

>
>> I am not going to start unilaterally making the other wording reductions
>> that simplify and save space in the preferences.  I've done that in DA
>> already, and don't have the patience to argue them through.
> Then why James did you ask me to review that?
Gale, I did not ask you to review them.
I provided my way of doing things as an FYI for people interested. I was
surprised that you then went on and experimented with new wording in a
branch yourself.  I didn't know that you actually like the idea of
shorter wording.  And I did not know until now that it was more than
just an experiment to see what is possible/acceptable to you, and that
it is what you would actually like.

> Have you looked at my suggestions for shorter text? I agree with shorter text if it does not go too far (given there is no contextual help). Quite a few
> of my changes are exactly as you suggested, whereas for others I prefer more user-friendly words, or a few more words than your shortening.
I don't see many that are exactly as I suggested, but no matter.  I
still prefer your shorter text to what we had.

> I forgot to include "Grayscale" in Spectrograms Preferences. I like
> that shortening too.
OK.  I included that too.
https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/1ce97b9d26db69993381111bd12bf912659ba913

[Aside: I find it quite amusing/droll that 'g', 'r' and 'a' are all
taken as accelerators, and in that same order, so that Gra&yscale ends
up using 'y' as an accelerator - which is not a bad choice an&ywa&y. ]

> Having done that work I expect "something" to happen beyond
> shortening only the auto-select text, even if most of the labels
> still end up as your choices.
Why on Earth Gale do you expect something to happen when you put
something on a personal branch?  A message along the lines of "I've made
some shorter preference wordings, motivated by ideas shared by James in
DA, now that we have the help button, and I'd like them to go into
Audacity.  Here they are.  What do you all think?

https://github.com/windinthew/audacity/commit/a582d05b2ed6a77022180bbe5ee1f0ae61084cf7"

A message of that kind is needed if that is to go from an idea in a
branch to an action.  Or you could mention your branch changes on the
wording page as a substitute for proposing them there, or state your own
intention on quality to check them in,  using your GitHub credentials,
as they are just 'wording changes'.

I've checked them in myself here:

https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2323e8d2227faed2d974bd453578d720e13c2c84

My guess is that they will end up pretty much as-is what we use for 2.2.0.
Perhaps my more extreme changes to preferences text will be of interest
in 2.2.1.

--James.





>
>
> Gale
>
>> I would like to do Auto-select though, as we have already spent a
>> considerable time discussing and agreeing it. Can I go ahead
>> with that one?


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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:52 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Gale for making concrete suggestions for shortenings to the preferences text that you are happy with.



On 6/7/2017 2:34 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
On 6 June 2017 at 23:51, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
Now that we have the help button (which we all wanted) and the help text
that Gale asked for
What help text was that?
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Selecting_Audio_-_the_basics



I assume we are OK to reduce the wording of the autoselect preference
to 'Auto-select'.  Yes?
As you know, I prefer "Auto-select audio for editing" because it gives more
idea what it does, it is still shorter than what we have now, and we don't
yet have contextual help (which I now understand may never happen).
OK.  That's what I've done.  It now reads "Auto-select audio for editing ".  In DA I continue to have "Auto-select", which I prefer.  When I write about 'editing' I tend to mean cut/copy/paste time shift, rather than applying effects, so for me 'audio for editing' detracts from the wording.

"Auto-select audio for editing " is better than what we had.


At the moment it is 2 - 1 in favour of "Auto-select".  I assume majority
voting will prevail.
Well, maybe, but generally we try to take steps that everyone agrees are an improvement on what we had previously.  I am hearing you as saying you think "Auto-select" is worse than what we had previously.  I think if someone cares enough about the precise wording they will raise a vote, and then it will be decided by vote.  Or if it is actually 3-1 and the 3 feel strongly, then majority view will prevail.


I am not going to start unilaterally making the other wording reductions
that simplify and save space in the preferences.  I've done that in DA
already, and don't have the patience to argue them through.
Then why James did you ask me to review that?
Gale, I did not ask you to review them.
I provided my way of doing things as an FYI for people interested. I was surprised that you then went on and experimented with new wording in a branch yourself.  I didn't know that you actually like the idea of shorter wording.  And I did not know until now that it was more than just an experiment to see what is possible/acceptable to you, and that it is what you would actually like.

Have you looked at my suggestions for shorter text? I agree with shorter text if it does not go too far (given there is no contextual help). Quite a few
of my changes are exactly as you suggested, whereas for others I prefer more user-friendly words, or a few more words than your shortening.
I don't see many that are exactly as I suggested, but no matter.  I still prefer your shorter text to what we had.

I forgot to include "Grayscale" in Spectrograms Preferences. I like
that shortening too.
OK.  I included that too.
https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/1ce97b9d26db69993381111bd12bf912659ba913

[Aside: I find it quite amusing/droll that 'g', 'r' and 'a' are all taken as accelerators, and in that same order, so that Gra&yscale ends up using 'y' as an accelerator - which is not a bad choice an&ywa&y. ]

Having done that work I expect "something" to happen beyond
shortening only the auto-select text, even if most of the labels
still end up as your choices.
Why on Earth Gale do you expect something to happen when you put something on a personal branch?  A message along the lines of "I've made some shorter preference wordings, motivated by ideas shared by James in DA, now that we have the help button, and I'd like them to go into Audacity.  Here they are.  What do you all think?

https://github.com/windinthew/audacity/commit/a582d05b2ed6a77022180bbe5ee1f0ae61084cf7"

A message of that kind is needed if that is to go from an idea in a branch to an action.  Or you could mention your branch changes on the wording page as a substitute for proposing them there, or state your own intention on quality to check them in,  using your GitHub credentials, as they are just 'wording changes'.

I've checked them in myself here:

https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/2323e8d2227faed2d974bd453578d720e13c2c84

My guess is that they will end up pretty much as-is what we use for 2.2.0.
Perhaps my more extreme changes to preferences text will be of interest in 2.2.1.

Since we are making major visual changes for the GUI for 2.2.0 it would a lot
more sense if we decided now what the Prefs descriptors are to be going forward
so as not to keep changing things for the user.

It might help, James, if you could create a simple text file (in Word or Excel say) of
your proposed "extreme changes" - and then we can easily compare these with
what we see of Gale's changes in the next nightly.

Cheers,
Peter.

 

--James.








Gale

I would like to do Auto-select though, as we have already spent a
considerable time discussing and agreeing it. Can I go ahead
with that one?


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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2
Once I get a new nightly, I'll get on with updating the Prefs pages
with these new shorter changes of Gale's.

Peter.

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Re: Preferences text.

James Crook
On 6/7/2017 2:13 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
> Once I get a new nightly, I'll get on with updating the Prefs pages
> with these new shorter changes of Gale's.
>
> Peter.
I will handle the update of prefs page screenshots.
--James.

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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:54 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 6/7/2017 2:13 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
Once I get a new nightly, I'll get on with updating the Prefs pages
with these new shorter changes of Gale's.

Peter.
I will handle the update of prefs page screenshots.

Thanks James.

Presumably with your automagic generator ...

I'm thinking a blue border on the top might look nice.

Peter.


 
--James.


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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:54 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 6/7/2017 2:13 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
Once I get a new nightly, I'll get on with updating the Prefs pages
with these new shorter changes of Gale's.

Peter.
I will handle the update of prefs page screenshots.

Thanks James.

Presumably with your automagic generator ...

I'm thinking a blue border on the top might look nice.

I'm liking those blue headers :-))

Peter.
 

Peter.


 
--James.


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Re: Preferences text.

James Crook
On 6/7/2017 4:51 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Peter Sampson <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:54 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/7/2017 2:13 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Once I get a new nightly, I'll get on with updating the Prefs pages
>>>> with these new shorter changes of Gale's.
>>>>
>>>> Peter.
>>>>
>>> I will handle the update of prefs page screenshots.
>>>
>> Thanks James.
>>
>> Presumably with your automagic generator ...
>>
>> I'm thinking a blue border on the top might look nice.
>>
> I'm liking those blue headers :-))
>
> Peter.
So I did the blue headers for the effects too.

You've probably seen that I created an {{effectbuttons}} template for
the repeated text about those buttons, which now include the new help
button.  I'm using {{effectbuttons|name=<name-of-effect>}} so that if
later we want to vary the text per effect we can do so easily.

--James.



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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2
And yes we've been crossfiring -  I created an EGA button template while yoo were doing that.
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Template:EGA_buttons

And note that there are (at least) two variants that need to be produced
1) EGAs with a Debug button
2) RTP ones with Start Playback and Skip Forward/Back

Find Clipping, Analyze Contrast & Noise Reduction look to be a one-offs

I'll back out my EGA buttons template tomorrow and use yours - unless you want to
make the updates with your template(s)

Just let me know ...

Off out now for a pizza and a glass of wine.

Peter.

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 6:40 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 6/7/2017 4:51 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Peter Sampson <
[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:54 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 6/7/2017 2:13 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:

Once I get a new nightly, I'll get on with updating the Prefs pages
with these new shorter changes of Gale's.

Peter.

I will handle the update of prefs page screenshots.

Thanks James.

Presumably with your automagic generator ...

I'm thinking a blue border on the top might look nice.

I'm liking those blue headers :-))

Peter.
So I did the blue headers for the effects too.

You've probably seen that I created an {{effectbuttons}} template for the repeated text about those buttons, which now include the new help button.  I'm using {{effectbuttons|name=<name-of-effect>}} so that if later we want to vary the text per effect we can do so easily.


--James.



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Re: Preferences text.

James Crook
On 6/7/2017 6:52 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:

> And yes we've been crossfiring -  I created an EGA button template while
> yoo were doing that.
> http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Template:EGA_buttons
>
> And note that there are (at least) two variants that need to be produced
> 1) EGAs with a Debug button
> 2) RTP ones with Start Playback and Skip Forward/Back
>
> Find Clipping, Analyze Contrast & Noise Reduction look to be a one-offs
>
> I'll back out my EGA buttons template tomorrow and use yours - unless you
> want to
> make the updates with your template(s)
>
> Just let me know ...
>
> Off out now for a pizza and a glass of wine.
Enjoy.

I think it is easiest to pass the name of the effect to the template,
and then in the template we can choose which buttons to show, i.e
abandon [[EGA Buttons]] as a template.


>
> Peter.
>


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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
Ooh I see you've modded my EGA button template
adding a debug option

need now to add an RTP option (Distortion is a good example)

I note that you had the H2 "The Buttons" in your template/
When I made mine I chose not to do so, so that it would be
clearer to future editors that there is an H2 section there.

Peter

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 6:52 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
And yes we've been crossfiring -  I created an EGA button template while yoo were doing that.
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/Template:EGA_buttons

And note that there are (at least) two variants that need to be produced
1) EGAs with a Debug button
2) RTP ones with Start Playback and Skip Forward/Back

Find Clipping, Analyze Contrast & Noise Reduction look to be a one-offs

I'll back out my EGA buttons template tomorrow and use yours - unless you want to
make the updates with your template(s)

Just let me know ...

Off out now for a pizza and a glass of wine.

Peter.

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 6:40 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 6/7/2017 4:51 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Peter Sampson <
[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:54 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 6/7/2017 2:13 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:

Once I get a new nightly, I'll get on with updating the Prefs pages
with these new shorter changes of Gale's.

Peter.

I will handle the update of prefs page screenshots.

Thanks James.

Presumably with your automagic generator ...

I'm thinking a blue border on the top might look nice.

I'm liking those blue headers :-))

Peter.
So I did the blue headers for the effects too.

You've probably seen that I created an {{effectbuttons}} template for the repeated text about those buttons, which now include the new help button.  I'm using {{effectbuttons|name=<name-of-effect>}} so that if later we want to vary the text per effect we can do so easily.


--James.



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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by James Crook
OK so which template (or templates) are we gonna use?

Peter

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Re: Preferences text.

James Crook
On 6/7/2017 9:21 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
> OK so which template (or templates) are we gonna use?
>
> Peter
We're going to use effectbuttons, and we are going to pass the name of
the page.  The template will then work out which buttons to show.

--James.

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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2
James.

one of teh key disadvantages of having the H2 header inside the template(s)
is that when you edit that H2 section (just that section not the page) then you
get talen to editing the template.

With the H2 header outside the templae, editing that section shows you the
templating format to be applied (which you can, if necessary, edit.

I got caught out by this earlier todayand inadvertently edited the template - and
it is highly likely that future editors could well get caught out the same way and
accidentally damage the template.

So I *strongly* urge you to take the H2 header outside of the template(s).

Peter,



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Re: Preferences text.

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 7 June 2017 at 11:52, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
[...]

>> Having done that work I expect "something" to happen beyond
>> shortening only the auto-select text, even if most of the labels
>> still end up as your choices.
>
> Why on Earth Gale do you expect something to happen when you put something
> on a personal branch?  A message along the lines of "I've made some shorter
> preference wordings, motivated by ideas shared by James in DA, now that we
> have the help button, and I'd like them to go into Audacity.  Here they are.
> What do you all think?
>
> https://github.com/windinthew/audacity/commit/a582d05b2ed6a77022180bbe5ee1f0ae61084cf7"
>
> A message of that kind is needed if that is to go from an idea in a branch
> to an action.  Or you could mention your branch changes on the wording page

Umm, the latter is exactly what I did on 4 June on
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Talk:Wording#Preferences

which page I knew you and Peter were following. I thought it was
bloat to say more and obvious when I said "let's look at this
holistically" then produce a diff that I would like something to
happen.  I agree it is a long time since you asked me to look.

I did a diff rather than e-mail likewise to keep messages down.
Besides I can then build it and someone could then see it if they
wanted.

Anyway the items can be tweaked further if someone feels
strongly. I think they are a user-friendly starting point.


Gale

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Re: Preferences text.

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:55 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
James.

one of teh key disadvantages of having the H2 header inside the template(s)
is that when you edit that H2 section (just that section not the page) then you
get talen to editing the template.

With the H2 header outside the templae, editing that section shows you the
templating format to be applied (which you can, if necessary, edit.

I got caught out by this earlier todayand inadvertently edited the template - and
it is highly likely that future editors could well get caught out the same way and
accidentally damage the template.

So I *strongly* urge you to take the H2 header outside of the template(s).

Peter,

James,

as a test to see what I am banging on about -  try the little local H2 edit link
next to "The buttons" in both:

a) Amplify - where it is still using EGA template
here the edit opens up the H2 section - showing clearly the template in use

b) Repeat - where it is using yout Effectbuttons (with the embedded H2)
here the edit opens up the Effectbuttons template - which the incautious
editor may go on to edit (possibly incorrectly ) as I did yesterday :-((


So if we are not going to pull the H2 out of the template, I will feel it necessary
to add an ednote/advice above each of those uses of the Effectbutton template
telling users not to use that edit button.

I suppose as an alternative you could place such an ednote/advice in the template
itself warning editors that this is a template they have opened up and they should
only edit it if they really know what they are doing.

Cheers,
Peter.


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Re: Preferences text.

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 6/8/2017 12:38 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> On 7 June 2017 at 11:52, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...]
>>> Having done that work I expect "something" to happen beyond
>>> shortening only the auto-select text, even if most of the labels
>>> still end up as your choices.
>> Why on Earth Gale do you expect something to happen when you put something
>> on a personal branch?  A message along the lines of "I've made some shorter
>> preference wordings, motivated by ideas shared by James in DA, now that we
>> have the help button, and I'd like them to go into Audacity.  Here they are.
>> What do you all think?
>>
>> https://github.com/windinthew/audacity/commit/a582d05b2ed6a77022180bbe5ee1f0ae61084cf7"
>>
>> A message of that kind is needed if that is to go from an idea in a branch
>> to an action.  Or you could mention your branch changes on the wording page
> Umm, the latter is exactly what I did on 4 June on
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Talk:Wording#Preferences
I saw the:
"Let's look at this holistically (James's complete list of shortened
preferences labels). I'll take a look soon."

but for some reason I don't think I saw your follow up.
Anyway, my apologies.  I somehow missed it, or I saw it and I forgot
that I had.


> which page I knew you and Peter were following. I thought it was
> bloat to say more and obvious when I said "let's look at this
> holistically" then produce a diff that I would like something to
> happen.  I agree it is a long time since you asked me to look.
>
> I did a diff rather than e-mail likewise to keep messages down.
> Besides I can then build it and someone could then see it if they
> wanted.
>
> Anyway the items can be tweaked further if someone feels
> strongly.

> I think they are a user-friendly starting point.


--James.






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Re: Preferences text.

Gale
Administrator
No problem.


Gale


On 8 June 2017 at 10:31, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6/8/2017 12:38 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>> On 7 June 2017 at 11:52, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Having done that work I expect "something" to happen beyond
>>>> shortening only the auto-select text, even if most of the labels
>>>> still end up as your choices.
>>>
>>> Why on Earth Gale do you expect something to happen when you put
>>> something
>>> on a personal branch?  A message along the lines of "I've made some
>>> shorter
>>> preference wordings, motivated by ideas shared by James in DA, now that
>>> we
>>> have the help button, and I'd like them to go into Audacity.  Here they
>>> are.
>>> What do you all think?
>>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/windinthew/audacity/commit/a582d05b2ed6a77022180bbe5ee1f0ae61084cf7"
>>>
>>> A message of that kind is needed if that is to go from an idea in a
>>> branch
>>> to an action.  Or you could mention your branch changes on the wording
>>> page
>>
>> Umm, the latter is exactly what I did on 4 June on
>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Talk:Wording#Preferences
>
> I saw the:
> "Let's look at this holistically (James's complete list of shortened
> preferences labels). I'll take a look soon."
>
> but for some reason I don't think I saw your follow up.
> Anyway, my apologies.  I somehow missed it, or I saw it and I forgot that I
> had.
>
>
>> which page I knew you and Peter were following. I thought it was
>> bloat to say more and obvious when I said "let's look at this
>> holistically" then produce a diff that I would like something to
>> happen.  I agree it is a long time since you asked me to look.
>>
>> I did a diff rather than e-mail likewise to keep messages down.
>> Besides I can then build it and someone could then see it if they
>> wanted.
>>
>> Anyway the items can be tweaked further if someone feels
>> strongly.
>
>
>> I think they are a user-friendly starting point.
>
>
>
> --James.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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