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Re: audacity-devel Digest, Vol 132, Issue 11

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How can the development of audacity be downloaded?
---原始邮件---
From:"audacity-devel-request"<[hidden email]>;
Date:2017年4月3日(星期一) 凌晨3:22
To:"audacity-devel"<[hidden email]>;
Subject:audacity-devel Digest, Vol 132, Issue 11

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
      Thanks to FFmpeg? (Gale Andrews)
   2. Re: Cut and paste implemented for time track (Richard Ash)
   3. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
      Thanks to FFmpeg? (Steve the Fiddle)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:28:30 +0100
From: Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
To: Audacity Developers List <[hidden email]>
Message-ID:
<[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.

I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
own.


Gale


On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
> similar enough format?
>
> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
> some other format?
>
> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>
> PRL
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>
>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>> file.
>>
>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>
>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> document it.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >>
>> >
>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >
>> > Robert
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As
>> >>> now,
>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >>>
>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>> >>> other
>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Steve
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >>>> >> t
>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >>>> >> on
>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks
>> >>>> > ago.
>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Robert
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes
>> >>>> >>> no
>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>> >>>> >>> source
>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but
>> >>>> >>> the
>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>> >>>> >>> not
>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >>>> >>> and
>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!)
>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> audacity-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:36:59 +0100
From: Richard Ash <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Cut and paste implemented for time track
To: Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
Cc: Audacity-Devel list <[hidden email]>
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:06:57 -0400
Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am aware of one defect.  If you cut points, then the time envelope
> before and after the cut is not left unchanged.  And the same is true
> of envelopes of wave clips.  Not coincidentally, because the code is
> common.

> I have a branch envelope-fixes meant to address that and other
> problems. In fact it is some rather old work of mine that got
> repeatedly delayed from merging.  I expect I will review and merge it
> this release.
I'd be really pleased to have that for volume envelopes!

Richard



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 20:22:40 +0100
From: Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
To: Audacity-Devel list <[hidden email]>
Message-ID:
<CABp83eAbAfMyf_aVBy6Ufxt4i_SXvqS9rrdcen7Di=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.

>From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
"sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
"automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.

Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
"trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
"Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
support all of the variants.

As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
(hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
tracker that I used 20 years ago:
https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/

(I feel all nostalgic now ;-)

Steve

On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
> sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
> The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>
> I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
> data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
> own.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
>> similar enough format?
>>
>> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
>> some other format?
>>
>> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
>> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>>
>>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>>> file.
>>>
>>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>>
>>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>>> document it.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Sounds pretty good.
>>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>>> >
>>> > Robert
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As
>>> >>> now,
>>> >>> neither is the case.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>>> >>> other
>>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> PRL
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Steve
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>> >>>> >> t
>>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>>> >>>> >> Windows as
>>> >>>> >> on
>>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks
>>> >>>> > ago.
>>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Robert
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes
>>> >>>> >>> no
>>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>>> >>>> >>> source
>>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but
>>> >>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>>> >>>> >>> not
>>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>>> >>>> >>> selected.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>>> >>>> >>> > file
>>> >>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>>> >>>> >>> > onto
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!)
>>> >>>> >>> > as
>>> >>>> >>> > a
>>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>>> >>>> >>> telling me
>>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>>> >>>> >>> > difference
>>> >>>> >>> > may
>>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: audacity-devel Digest, Vol 132, Issue 11

Gale
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Please could you give your message a descriptive and unique title,
even if you reply to a digest.

On 2 April 2017 at 20:32, 星空 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How can the development of audacity be downloaded?

http://www.audacityteam.org/download/source/.


Gale


> ---原始邮件---
> From:"audacity-devel-request"<[hidden email]>;
> Date:2017年4月3日(星期一) 凌晨3:22
> To:"audacity-devel"<[hidden email]>;
> Subject:audacity-devel Digest, Vol 132, Issue 11
>
> Send audacity-devel mailing list submissions to
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
>       Thanks to FFmpeg? (Gale Andrews)
>    2. Re: Cut and paste implemented for time track (Richard Ash)
>    3. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
>       Thanks to FFmpeg? (Steve the Fiddle)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:28:30 +0100
> From: Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
> MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
> To: Audacity Developers List <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID:
> <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
> sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
> The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>
> I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
> data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
> own.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
>> similar enough format?
>>
>> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
>> some other format?
>>
>> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
>> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>>
>>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>>> file.
>>>
>>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>>
>>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>>> document it.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Sounds pretty good.
>>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>>> >
>>> > Robert
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As
>>> >>> now,
>>> >>> neither is the case.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>>> >>> other
>>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> PRL
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Steve
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>> >>>> >> t
>>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>>> >>>> >> Windows as
>>> >>>> >> on
>>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks
>>> >>>> > ago.
>>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature
>>> >>>> > of
>>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Robert
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site
>>> >>>> >>> makes
>>> >>>> >>> no
>>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>>> >>>> >>> source
>>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but
>>> >>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>>> >>>> >>> not
>>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>>> >>>> >>> selected.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>>> >>>> >>> > file
>>> >>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>>> >>>> >>> > onto
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>>> >>>> >>> > as
>>> >>>> >>> > a
>>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>>> >>>> >>> telling me
>>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>>> >>>> >>> > difference
>>> >>>> >>> > may
>>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> >>>> >>> > most
>>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> [hidden email]
>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:36:59 +0100
> From: Richard Ash <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Cut and paste implemented for time track
> To: Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Audacity-Devel list <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:06:57 -0400
> Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am aware of one defect.  If you cut points, then the time envelope
>> before and after the cut is not left unchanged.  And the same is true
>> of envelopes of wave clips.  Not coincidentally, because the code is
>> common.
>>
>> I have a branch envelope-fixes meant to address that and other
>> problems. In fact it is some rather old work of mine that got
>> repeatedly delayed from merging.  I expect I will review and merge it
>> this release.
> I'd be really pleased to have that for volume envelopes!
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 20:22:40 +0100
> From: Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
> MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
> To: Audacity-Devel list <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID:
> <CABp83eAbAfMyf_aVBy6Ufxt4i_SXvqS9rrdcen7Di=[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>
> >From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>
> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
> support all of the variants.
>
> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
>
> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>
> Steve
>
> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they
>> are
>> sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>>
>> I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
>> data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
>> own.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
>>> similar enough format?
>>>
>>> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
>>> some other format?
>>>
>>> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
>>> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>>>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>>>
>>>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>>>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>>>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>>>> file.
>>>>
>>>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>>>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>>>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>>>
>>>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>>>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>>>> document it.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>>>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Sounds pretty good.
>>>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>>>> >
>>>> > Robert
>>>> >> Steve
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?
>>>> >>> As
>>>> >>> now,
>>>> >>> neither is the case.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there
>>>> >>> for
>>>> >>> other
>>>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> PRL
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Steve
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert H?nggi <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>>>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >>>> >> t
>>>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>>>> >>>> >> Windows as
>>>> >>>> >> on
>>>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some
>>>> >>>> > weeks
>>>> >>>> > ago.
>>>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature
>>>> >>>> > of
>>>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>>>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Robert
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site
>>>> >>>> >>> makes
>>>> >>>> >>> no
>>>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>>>> >>>> >>> source
>>>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are,
>>>> >>>> >>> but
>>>> >>>> >>> the
>>>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>>>> >>>> >>> not
>>>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>>>> >>>> >>> selected.
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>>>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>>>> >>>> >>> > file
>>>> >>>> >>> and
>>>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>>>> >>>> >>> > onto
>>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>>>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>>>> >>>> >>> > as
>>>> >>>> >>> > a
>>>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>>>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>>>> >>>> >>> telling me
>>>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>>>> >>>> >>> > difference
>>>> >>>> >>> > may
>>>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>>> >>>> >>> > most
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>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>
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>>>> >>>> >
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