Re: export multiple expectations

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Re: export multiple expectations

Kurt Bigler
on 5/7/05 6:02 AM, Jack Cook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Next, use the Export Multiple command to export each labelled
> selection as a WAV or AIFF file. They will export as separate tracks,
> but should play straight through on the CD without a break if you use
> the "disk at once" mode as was suggested. I did mine on my Mac and
> burned the CDs with iTunes, and they came out fine, play seamlessly, and
> I can select the tracks on the CD using the CD player's selection buttons.

I'm also using iTunes.  The iTunes preferences don't offer a "disk at once"
option so it must be that "disk at once" is the iTunes default, or else
nobody would be having success.

Meanwhile I'm getting short gaps between some of the tracks.  The gaps are
present on the CD, but it turns out the are also present in the playback of
the .wav tracks (from Audacity export multiple) imported into iTunes.

Do you have the "Crossfade playback" option enabled in the iTunes "Audio"
preferences?  I turned this option off because I don't want iTunes messing
with the audio.  If I turn "Crossfade playback" on, it actually gets rid of
the obvious silent gap symptom.  I'm betting you have this option on and
that's why you didn't notice a problem.  But I'm hoping for another
explanation.

-Kurt



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Re: export multiple expectations

Jack Cook-2
Hi Kurt,

Actually I do have the Crossfade option checked, but the slider is set
to 0. I would think this is the same as having it off, but I don't know
for sure. One thing I did do, though, and I forgot to mention it, is in
the Burning section of the preferences I have the Gap Between Songs set
to None. That should get rid of the gaps.

Jack



Kurt Bigler wrote:

> I'm also using iTunes. The iTunes preferences don't offer a "disk at once"
>
>option so it must be that "disk at once" is the iTunes default, or else
>nobody would be having success.
>
>Meanwhile I'm getting short gaps between some of the tracks.  The gaps are
>present on the CD, but it turns out the are also present in the playback of
>the .wav tracks (from Audacity export multiple) imported into iTunes.
>
>Do you have the "Crossfade playback" option enabled in the iTunes "Audio"
>preferences?  I turned this option off because I don't want iTunes messing
>with the audio.  If I turn "Crossfade playback" on, it actually gets rid of
>the obvious silent gap symptom.  I'm betting you have this option on and
>that's why you didn't notice a problem.  But I'm hoping for another
>explanation.
>
>-Kurt
>
>
>
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Re: export multiple expectations

Kurt Bigler
on 5/9/05 6:20 PM, Jack Cook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Kurt,
>
> Actually I do have the Crossfade option checked, but the slider is set
> to 0. I would think this is the same as having it off, but I don't know
> for sure. One thing I did do, though, and I forgot to mention it, is in
> the Burning section of the preferences I have the Gap Between Songs set
> to None. That should get rid of the gaps.

Yes, I have the same None setting.  I had that in my message and deleted it
thinking to deal with one thing at a time, since the problem occurs for me
even when burning is not involved.  It is evidently something in the
playback algorithm.  It sounds exactly the same when playing the CD in a
"real" CD player as it does when playing the pre-burn playlist in iTunes.

I just googled

    gaps in iTunes playback

and found this:

    playlistmag.com/weblogs/todayatplaylist/2005/04/jointracksyou/index.php

and

    http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/user/view/cs_msg/4953

and on and on, actually.  All of which makes it sound pretty unpromising
that anything is going to really work right here.

However, crossfade with zero sounds pretty good on a couple of example track
transitions, and is probably adequate for the current production project.
But I'd like to get fully accurate information which I can't absolutely
trust the above articles to provide.  Maybe crossfade with a zero parameter
is sample-perfect.  But this needs to be proven.  Maybe this is really
unlikely if I can trust the intelligence of the people who wrote the above
articles at all.

Really iTunes has been a miserable failure in so many ways.  I wonder if
apple is actively avoiding quality improvements to make sure 3rd party
developers don't sue them for taking away their business on the apple
platform.

-Kurt



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Re: export multiple expectations

Kurt Bigler
on 5/9/05 6:57 PM, Kurt Bigler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> on 5/9/05 6:20 PM, Jack Cook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Kurt,
>>
>> Actually I do have the Crossfade option checked, but the slider is set
>> to 0. I would think this is the same as having it off, but I don't know
>> for sure. One thing I did do, though, and I forgot to mention it, is in
>> the Burning section of the preferences I have the Gap Between Songs set
>> to None. That should get rid of the gaps.
>
> Yes, I have the same None setting.  I had that in my message and deleted it
> thinking to deal with one thing at a time, since the problem occurs for me
> even when burning is not involved.  It is evidently something in the
> playback algorithm.  It sounds exactly the same when playing the CD in a
> "real" CD player as it does when playing the pre-burn playlist in iTunes.

[snip]

> However, crossfade with zero sounds pretty good on a couple of example track
> transitions, and is probably adequate for the current production project.

I said that before having burned a CD from the result.  Crossfade with a
zero setting eliminated any obvious audible symptom during playback (of the
playlist) in iTunes, but the resulting CD still has obvious gaps in spite of
the Gap = None setting.  I guess I have to look for an iTunes alternative in
order to finish this project.  Note that this is entirely done with .wav
files, so no mp3 issues are involved.

-Kurt



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Re: export multiple expectations

Travis Evans
In reply to this post by Kurt Bigler
On 05/09/2005 03:25 PM, Monty wrote:

>>>I read somewhere that MP3 files cause small gaps between tracks for
>>>whatever reason.
>
> Two reasons:
>
> 1) mp3 frames are a fixed size.  You can't have fractional frames.
> Most encoders pad the extra space out with silence.
>
> 2) most encoders don't try to line up the waveforms at the boundary;
> even without the silence, there's a pop at the stairstep transition
> from the last song's end frame to the next song's beginning frame
> (because the waveforms are encoded lossily, they'll vary from the
> original, and unlike frame boundaries within the mp3 file, there's no
> attempt to smooth the frame transition between tracks).
>
> I'll note that Vorbis has neither of these problems ;-)

If my CD/MP3 Walkman supported Vorbis, I'd try it.  Unfortunately, I've
never heard of any portable devices supporting Vorbis yet (it's time for
the manufacturers to wake up!)

>>I have never had this problem in about 2.5 years of burning to CD from
>>Audacity edited wav files.
>
> He said mp3, not wav.  The problem is the mp3s.
>
> However, because he didn't say if he knew, there's a potential *third*
> problem that can bite you.  Most CD burners default to burning in
> 'track at once mode'; there will be seven sectors of nothing between
> the tracks.  To get a seamless burn, the disc must be burned in
> 'session-at-once' or 'disk-at-once' mode.

I tried disk-at-once (actually, I used "raw" mode which was supposed to
be the same except the software does all the low-level stuff (error
correction codes, etc.) instead of the drive.  This was because
apparently my Lite-On CD burner has a firmware bug that causes the time
readout in CD players to go haywire on discs made in DAO mode, whereas
raw mode works fine).  But there was still a very brief gap or two on
some tracks.  I'm not sure whether it was because I didn't edit properly
after converting back to WAV, but I tried "gluing" the tracks together
in Audacity and they sounded okay.

Maybe it could have been the CD player, too--I don't remember if I tried
it on more than one.

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Travis Evans


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Re: export multiple expectations

xiphmont



On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 06:11:33PM -0500, Travis Evans wrote:

> If my CD/MP3 Walkman supported Vorbis, I'd try it.  Unfortunately, I've
> never heard of any portable devices supporting Vorbis yet (it's time for
> the manufacturers to wake up!)

Actually, I own three Vorbis portables.  A Kharma, a random iRiver CD
player and a Rio Kharma.  I cheated; they were free samples from the
manufacturers. :-)

> raw mode works fine).  But there was still a very brief gap or two on
> some tracks.  I'm not sure whether it was because I didn't edit properly
> after converting back to WAV, but I tried "gluing" the tracks together
> in Audacity and they sounded okay.

How did you build the image to burn?  Perhaps your burning software is
what's sticking in the gaps.

Monty


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Re: export multiple expectations

Travis Evans
On 05/11/2005 09:57 PM, Monty wrote:
>>raw mode works fine).  But there was still a very brief gap or two on
>>some tracks.  I'm not sure whether it was because I didn't edit properly
>>after converting back to WAV, but I tried "gluing" the tracks together
>>in Audacity and they sounded okay.
>
> How did you build the image to burn?  Perhaps your burning software is
> what's sticking in the gaps.

I use K3b (Linux/KDE) for CD-burning.

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Re: export multiple expectations

John Haxby
Travis Evans wrote:

> On 05/11/2005 09:57 PM, Monty wrote:
>
>>> raw mode works fine).  But there was still a very brief gap or two
>>> on some tracks.  I'm not sure whether it was because I didn't edit
>>> properly after converting back to WAV, but I tried "gluing" the
>>> tracks together in Audacity and they sounded okay.
>>
>>
>> How did you build the image to burn?  Perhaps your burning software is
>> what's sticking in the gaps.
>
>
> I use K3b (Linux/KDE) for CD-burning.
>
Your tracks aren't an exact number of sectors; k3b arranges to pad audio
tracks so that they are an exact multiple of 1/75s frames which is nice
of it, unless you want one track to run into anoher.   When chopping up
big bits of audio, I always set the selection format to cdda and turn
snap-to on.

jch



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