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Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
Hi James,

testing on audacity-win-r715758d-2.2.0-alpha-21-mar-17

Now that you have introduced into 2.2.0 alpha the menu structure from Dark Audacity
there is a problem with the Record commands, particularly the Record Menu.

Transport > Record > Record Below -this actually invokes a "Record Beside" or "Append Record"

I assume that is, for now at least, because you have retained the pre-existing  "record below" as the
current default in 2.2.0 rather than switching the default to be "record beside" as you have in Dark Audacity.

This leads to the situation where you can make an append record, but only through the shotcuts Shift+R
of Shift+Play button - there is no menu command to invoke this.


1) Now for my money I would much prefer "record beside" ("append record") to be the default with
Shift+R and Shift+Play invoking the "record below".

My reasoning for this is that we get many folk writing on the Forum and elsewhere who are confused as to
why their recordings stack up on new tracks rather than just continuing (only today we have one such
query on the Forum and another on our Facebook page - but these are only two among the many I have
seen and in many cases responded to on the Forum over the years.

It seems to me that the "record below" is the more advanced form of recording that more experienced users
who want do do multi-tracking or overdubbing would use with the "record beside" being what most newby
and naive users would (and do) expect.  As such it makes emminent sense for "record beside" to be the
default form with advanced users switching when required.


2) That would be the simple straightforward approach - but I do recognize that there are folk among us who
would rather stick to the "old ways" and have "record below" as their default.

What I would suggest for this is that we create an option/preference to toggle between the two default forms
a) default to be "record beside" - menu command is Transport > Record > Record Below

b) user toggleable to make the default "record below" - menu command is switched to Transport > Record > Record Beside
Transport > Record > Append

So the Transport Menu cntents would become context dependent.
Similarly the Shift + shortcut/button would be context dependent on the user's preferred setting for beside or below.


3) An alternative would be to have the user-toggleable setting (with "record beside" as default).
and then in the Transport >Record menu remove the Transport>Record>Record command (which looks odd imo anyway)
replacing it with the two commands:
a) Transport>Record>Record Beside (or Transport>Record>Append),
b) Transport>Record>Record Below.

Cheers,
Peter

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

James Crook
Yep.  I've just fixed 'Record Below' menu item to read 'Record Beside',
which is what it actually does in Audacity with EXPERIMENTAL_DA not
defined.  There are some details that team may want to discuss about
stereo/mono.  It is all clear IF recording in mono, but as soon as you
start using stereo, it has to do 'the best it can' if you try say to
record stereo onto the end of a mono track....  I had to change
'record-append' a little to make it more useful as the default.

I think Record-beside should be the default.  I think I said that my
sister spent an hour struggling with Audacity when she first started
using it, because it always gave her a mix.  So that was a reason for
the change.  It is more logical for people starting out to record-beside.

I am going to continue using record-beside as the default in Dark
Audacity.  If audacityteam want to do that too that is fine.  When I
last checked though I think Steve and Gale did not agree that
record-beside was better as the default.  Maybe it needs more tweaking
before they are happy with that change, and they can say what it needs?

--James.




On 3/21/2017 11:59 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> testing on audacity-win-r715758d-2.2.0-alpha-21-mar-17
>
> Now that you have introduced into 2.2.0 alpha the menu structure from Dark
> Audacity
> there is a problem with the Record commands, particularly the Record Menu.
>
> Transport > Record > Record Below -this actually invokes a "Record Beside"
> or "Append Record"
>
> I assume that is, for now at least, because you have retained the
> pre-existing  "record below" as the
> current default in 2.2.0 rather than switching the default to be "record
> beside" as you have in Dark Audacity.
>
> This leads to the situation where you can make an append record, but only
> through the shotcuts Shift+R
> of Shift+Play button - there is no menu command to invoke this.
>
>
> 1) Now for my money I would much prefer "record beside" ("append record")
> to be the default with
> Shift+R and Shift+Play invoking the "record below".
>
> My reasoning for this is that we get many folk writing on the Forum and
> elsewhere who are confused as to
> why their recordings stack up on new tracks rather than just continuing
> (only today we have one such
> query on the Forum and another on our Facebook page - but these are only
> two among the many I have
> seen and in many cases responded to on the Forum over the years.
>
> It seems to me that the "record below" is the more advanced form of
> recording that more experienced users
> who want do do multi-tracking or overdubbing would use with the "record
> beside" being what most newby
> and naive users would (and do) expect.  As such it makes emminent sense for
> "record beside" to be the
> default form with advanced users switching when required.
>
>
> 2) That would be the simple straightforward approach - but I do recognize
> that there are folk among us who
> would rather stick to the "old ways" and have "record below" as their
> default.
>
> What I would suggest for this is that we create an option/preference to
> toggle between the two default forms
> a) default to be "record beside" - menu command is Transport > Record >
> Record Below
>
> b) user toggleable to make the default "record below" - menu command is
> switched to Transport > Record > Record Beside
> Transport > Record > Append
>
> So the Transport Menu cntents would become context dependent.
> Similarly the Shift + shortcut/button would be context dependent on the
> user's preferred setting for beside or below.
>
>
> 3) An alternative would be to have the user-toggleable setting (with
> "record beside" as default).
> and then in the Transport >Record menu remove the Transport>Record>Record
> command (which looks odd imo anyway)
> replacing it with the two commands:
> a) Transport>Record>Record Beside (or Transport>Record>Append),
> b) Transport>Record>Record Below.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>


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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Gale
Administrator
I have not changed my mind that as the code is now, Record
should start a new track by default. This seems expected to me
given we promote ourselves as a multi-track editor, and it's more
friendly than some apps in that you don't have to arm the track first.

If Record-beside is default I think there is a side issue that it looks
like Audacity should be able to record in the same track from the
cursor or selection position. Hopefully we will eventually be able to
do that.

Given the different expectations of different users I agree with Peter
that we should provide some way to choose the default Record
behaviour. And yes the user who wants other than the starting
default probably still wants to use the standard R shortcut for it, even
if it's Record Append.

IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
item. With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
arrows.

I'm not so clear how to best handle that in the menus. A simpler
alternative would just be to provide separate buttons for Record Below
and Record Append. I find the button space usage excessive, and
we still have that gap between Skip to End and Record  So there is
certainly room for an extra button.



Gale




On 21 March 2017 at 13:45, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yep.  I've just fixed 'Record Below' menu item to read 'Record Beside',
> which is what it actually does in Audacity with EXPERIMENTAL_DA not
> defined.  There are some details that team may want to discuss about
> stereo/mono.  It is all clear IF recording in mono, but as soon as you
> start using stereo, it has to do 'the best it can' if you try say to
> record stereo onto the end of a mono track....  I had to change
> 'record-append' a little to make it more useful as the default.
>
> I think Record-beside should be the default.  I think I said that my
> sister spent an hour struggling with Audacity when she first started
> using it, because it always gave her a mix.  So that was a reason for
> the change.  It is more logical for people starting out to record-beside.
>
> I am going to continue using record-beside as the default in Dark
> Audacity.  If audacityteam want to do that too that is fine.  When I
> last checked though I think Steve and Gale did not agree that
> record-beside was better as the default.  Maybe it needs more tweaking
> before they are happy with that change, and they can say what it needs?
>
> --James.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/21/2017 11:59 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>> Hi James,
>>
>> testing on audacity-win-r715758d-2.2.0-alpha-21-mar-17
>>
>> Now that you have introduced into 2.2.0 alpha the menu structure from Dark
>> Audacity
>> there is a problem with the Record commands, particularly the Record Menu.
>>
>> Transport > Record > Record Below -this actually invokes a "Record Beside"
>> or "Append Record"
>>
>> I assume that is, for now at least, because you have retained the
>> pre-existing  "record below" as the
>> current default in 2.2.0 rather than switching the default to be "record
>> beside" as you have in Dark Audacity.
>>
>> This leads to the situation where you can make an append record, but only
>> through the shotcuts Shift+R
>> of Shift+Play button - there is no menu command to invoke this.
>>
>>
>> 1) Now for my money I would much prefer "record beside" ("append record")
>> to be the default with
>> Shift+R and Shift+Play invoking the "record below".
>>
>> My reasoning for this is that we get many folk writing on the Forum and
>> elsewhere who are confused as to
>> why their recordings stack up on new tracks rather than just continuing
>> (only today we have one such
>> query on the Forum and another on our Facebook page - but these are only
>> two among the many I have
>> seen and in many cases responded to on the Forum over the years.
>>
>> It seems to me that the "record below" is the more advanced form of
>> recording that more experienced users
>> who want do do multi-tracking or overdubbing would use with the "record
>> beside" being what most newby
>> and naive users would (and do) expect.  As such it makes emminent sense for
>> "record beside" to be the
>> default form with advanced users switching when required.
>>
>>
>> 2) That would be the simple straightforward approach - but I do recognize
>> that there are folk among us who
>> would rather stick to the "old ways" and have "record below" as their
>> default.
>>
>> What I would suggest for this is that we create an option/preference to
>> toggle between the two default forms
>> a) default to be "record beside" - menu command is Transport > Record >
>> Record Below
>>
>> b) user toggleable to make the default "record below" - menu command is
>> switched to Transport > Record > Record Beside
>> Transport > Record > Append
>>
>> So the Transport Menu cntents would become context dependent.
>> Similarly the Shift + shortcut/button would be context dependent on the
>> user's preferred setting for beside or below.
>>
>>
>> 3) An alternative would be to have the user-toggleable setting (with
>> "record beside" as default).
>> and then in the Transport >Record menu remove the Transport>Record>Record
>> command (which looks odd imo anyway)
>> replacing it with the two commands:
>> a) Transport>Record>Record Beside (or Transport>Record>Append),
>> b) Transport>Record>Record Below.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter
>>
>
>
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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

James Crook

My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.

I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
(i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.




On 3/22/2017 5:16 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
> the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
> checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
> changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
> item.
A more general cleaner mechanism would be:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_MultiButtons

The idea there is that the user becomes aware that there are multiple
choices for the buttons in a family like record, play, zoom, and they
choose which one appears in pole-position.
Drop down menu beside is taking up more area than needed.  Instead a
drop down arrow below the button that appears on hover would work
better.  Additionally the buttons are configurable so you can set up new
baroque combination options, like loop-play-at-x2.

> With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
> Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
> arrows.
+1.  In DarkAudacity RecordBelow does have a downward arrow.

--James.


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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Stevethefiddle
On 22 March 2017 at 10:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.

This does catch out a lot of beginners, so I'm inclined to agree,
though in the interface I think it should simply be called "Record".

Gale makes the point that I strongly agree with:

"...given we promote ourselves as a multi-track editor"

This is one of Audacity's greatest strengths, and imo should feature
prominently.

Although the new menu puts "Record" one level deeper, I like that it
groups record beside / below and pause, together. With this grouping I
think we can make "record beside" the default and still give
sufficient prominence to Audacity's multi-track capability:

-> Record (R)
-> Record New Track (Shift+R)
-> Timer Record (Shift+P)
-> Pause (P)

If laid out like this and a user can't find "Shift+R", then perhaps
that user needs to become a bit more computer literate before
attempting multi-track recording.


Also about the new Play/Record menus, what in practical terms is the
difference between "Play > Pause" and "Play > Stop and Set Cursor" ?
Do we still need "Stop and Set Cursor"?

Steve

>
> I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
> beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
> we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
> savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
> (i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/22/2017 5:16 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
>> the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
>> checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
>> changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
>> item.
> A more general cleaner mechanism would be:
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_MultiButtons
>
> The idea there is that the user becomes aware that there are multiple
> choices for the buttons in a family like record, play, zoom, and they
> choose which one appears in pole-position.
> Drop down menu beside is taking up more area than needed.  Instead a
> drop down arrow below the button that appears on hover would work
> better.  Additionally the buttons are configurable so you can set up new
> baroque combination options, like loop-play-at-x2.
>
>> With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
>> Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
>> arrows.
> +1.  In DarkAudacity RecordBelow does have a downward arrow.
>
> --James.
>
>
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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Cliff Scott

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 6:54 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 22 March 2017 at 10:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.
>
> This does catch out a lot of beginners, so I'm inclined to agree,
> though in the interface I think it should simply be called "Record".
>
> Gale makes the point that I strongly agree with:
>
> "...given we promote ourselves as a multi-track editor"
>
> This is one of Audacity's greatest strengths, and imo should feature
> prominently.
>
> Although the new menu puts "Record" one level deeper, I like that it
> groups record beside / below and pause, together. With this grouping I
> think we can make "record beside" the default and still give
> sufficient prominence to Audacity's multi-track capability:
>
> -> Record (R)
> -> Record New Track (Shift+R)
> -> Timer Record (Shift+P)
> -> Pause (P)
>
> If laid out like this and a user can't find "Shift+R", then perhaps
> that user needs to become a bit more computer literate before
> attempting multi-track recording.
>
>
> Also about the new Play/Record menus, what in practical terms is the
> difference between "Play > Pause" and "Play > Stop and Set Cursor" ?
> Do we still need "Stop and Set Cursor"?

I don't see any practical difference in play mode. It's purely in the mental concept that I've finished playing this part, but may want to continue from here. Trying to keep the same thinking in Record, Pause>Pause is the same as Stop>Record-Beside where Stop>Record starts a new track in 2.1.3. If the Record-Beside is default then operationally it is the same. I don't know if there are other implications as to what effects it has on what else can be done while in Pause though. Of course Stop when in Record mode can trigger the preference to "fit tracks vertically zoomed".

Cliff

>
> Steve
>
>>
>> I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
>> beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
>> we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
>> savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
>> (i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/2017 5:16 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
>>> the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
>>> checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
>>> changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
>>> item.
>> A more general cleaner mechanism would be:
>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_MultiButtons
>>
>> The idea there is that the user becomes aware that there are multiple
>> choices for the buttons in a family like record, play, zoom, and they
>> choose which one appears in pole-position.
>> Drop down menu beside is taking up more area than needed.  Instead a
>> drop down arrow below the button that appears on hover would work
>> better.  Additionally the buttons are configurable so you can set up new
>> baroque combination options, like loop-play-at-x2.
>>
>>> With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
>>> Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
>>> arrows.
>> +1.  In DarkAudacity RecordBelow does have a downward arrow.
>>
>> --James.
>>
>>
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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
Steve wrote:
> Also about the new Play/Record menus, what in practical terms is the
> difference between "Play > Pause" and "Play > Stop and Set Cursor" ?
> Do we still need "Stop and Set Cursor"?

Yes there is a practical and useful difference.  Pause does not reset the cursor
position
to the current play position.  So yes I strongly think wqe still need and
want
"Play > Stop and Set Cursor".


Use case 1
1) Cursor at T=0
2) Press Play
3) after 30 seconds press Pause
4) Press Pause
5) Audio restarts from 30 seconds

Use case 2
1) Cursor at T=0
2) Press Play
3) after 30 seconds press Stop
4) Press Play
5) Audio restarts from 0 seconds

Use case 3
1) Cursor at T=0
2) Press Play
3) after 30 seconds press Stop and set Cursor (shortcut X)
4) Press Pause
5) Audio restarts from 30 seconds

Now here the fundamental difference and usefulness comes from 2-5 to 3-5 behaviour.

2-5 looks similar to 1-5, but ...
the differerence being Press Stop and then Play again (repeatedly) in those two use cases
yields differnt behaviours
UC-1 plays from T=0 (repeatedly)
UC-2 plays from T=30 (repeteadly)

So we provide "Stop and set Cursor" for folk who want the Stop to behave much more like
their traditional tape recorder /tape-deck - I recall from many Forum postings that I am not
alone in wanting this behaviour.

And I find my self constantly using both forms UC-2 and UC-3, stopping with and without
resetting the cursor. 

You may recall that I wrote in the past that once I made myself a one-key shortcut to replace
the awkward Shift+A I ound myself using "Sop and set Cursor" a *lot* more.  And that is
why I lobbied for the change we have just introduced in 2.1.3 with the single key "X" for
that shortcut.

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
James wrote
>My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.
>
>I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
>beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
>we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
>savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
>(i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.

+1 for this particular instance - and

+1 for the general design principle

I think we experienced users tend to forget just what a complx, complicated and
powerful piece of software is - and application that can be quite intimidating to
beginners (as many posts on the Forum indicate).


Steve wrote:
>This does catch out a lot of beginners, so I'm inclined to agree,
>though in the interface I think it should simply be called "Record".

+1  that sounds like a good idea

Steve wrote:
>Gale makes the point that I strongly agree with:
>
>"...given we promote ourselves as a multi-track editor"
>
>This is one of Audacity's greatest strengths, and imo should feature
>prominently.

I agree with these sentiments too - but making the change to make
"record beside" would help a lot of newbies and would not stop more
experinced and power users from using Audacity as a multi-track editor.


Steve wrote:
>This is one of Audacity's greatest strengths, and imo should feature
>prominently.
>
>Although the new menu puts "Record" one level deeper, I like that it
>groups record beside / below and pause, together. With this grouping I
>think we can make "record beside" the default and still give
>sufficient prominence to Audacity's multi-track capability:
>
>   -> Record (R)
>   -> Record New Track (Shift+R)
>   -> Timer Record (Shift+P)
>   -> Pause (P)

+1

I really like the command nomenclature that Steve has here.

Peter

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
James wrote:
> ... It is all clear IF recording in mono, but as soon as you start using stereo,
>,it has to do 'the best it can' if you try say to record stereo onto the end of a mono
>track....  I had to change 'record-append' a little to make it more useful as the default.

Audacity 2.2.0 and DarkAudacity both seem to cope quite well  when you switch between
stereo and mono between records and then use "record beside".

Usecase-1  2.2.0
1) Audacity set to stereo
2) Press Record
3) Press Stop => leaves a two channel stereo track
4) reset Audacity to mono
5) Press Shift+R for "record beside"  (or Record in DA)
6) results in a mono track being appended in the left channel

Usecase-2  2.2.0
1) Audcity set to mono
2) Press Record
3) Press Stop => leaves a one channel mono track
4) reset Audacity to stereo
5) Press Shift+R for "record beside" (or Record in DA)
6) results in a mono track being appended in the single mono channel


Though why someone would want to do this frankly baffles me :-//


I think this means that I don't see this as a reason for not having
"record beside" as the default Record behaviour.

Peter.




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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 22 March 2017 at 15:35, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steve wrote:
>> Also about the new Play/Record menus, what in practical terms is the
>> difference between "Play > Pause" and "Play > Stop and Set Cursor" ?
>> Do we still need "Stop and Set Cursor"?
>
> Yes there is a practical and useful difference.  Pause does not reset the
> cursor
> positionto the current play position.  So yes I strongly think wqe still
> need and
> want "Play > Stop and Set Cursor".
>
>
> Use case 1
> 1) Cursor at T=0
> 2) Press Play
> 3) after 30 seconds press Pause
> 4) Press Pause
> 5) Audio restarts from 30 seconds
>
> Use case 2
> 1) Cursor at T=0
> 2) Press Play
> 3) after 30 seconds press Stop
> 4) Press Play
> 5) Audio restarts from 0 seconds
>
> Use case 3
> 1) Cursor at T=0
> 2) Press Play
> 3) after 30 seconds press Stop and set Cursor (shortcut X)
> 4) Press Pause
> 5) Audio restarts from 30 seconds

Not for me it doesn't. When I press Pause at step 4, step 5 is Paused
at 30 seconds.
If you mean:
4) Press Play.
then at step 5 the same behaviour appears to be the same as Use case
1: Audio restarts from 30 seconds.

>
> Now here the fundamental difference and usefulness comes from 2-5 to 3-5
> behaviour.
>
> 2-5 looks similar to 1-5, but ...

Do you mean "step 5 of use case 2" looks similar to "step 5 of use case 1" ?
I'd not say that "5) Audio restarts from 0 seconds" looks similar to
"5) Audio restarts from 30 seconds".
Perhaps you mean "step 5 of use case 3" looks similar to "step 5 of
use case 1" ?

Steve

> the differerence being Press Stop and then Play again (repeatedly) in those
> two use cases
> yields differnt behaviours
> UC-1 plays from T=0 (repeatedly)
> UC-2 plays from T=30 (repeteadly)
>
> So we provide "Stop and set Cursor" for folk who want the Stop to behave
> much more like
> their traditional tape recorder /tape-deck - I recall from many Forum
> postings that I am not
> alone in wanting this behaviour.
>
> And I find my self constantly using both forms UC-2 and UC-3, stopping with
> and without
> resetting the cursor.
>
> You may recall that I wrote in the past that once I made myself a one-key
> shortcut to replace
> the awkward Shift+A I ound myself using "Sop and set Cursor" a *lot* more.
> And that is
> why I lobbied for the change we have just introduced in 2.1.3 with the
> single key "X" for
> that shortcut.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
Yes, Usecase 3 step 4 should indeed say "Press Play" - the vicissitudes of cut&paste <sighs>

>Perhaps you mean "step 5 of use case 3" looks similar to "step 5 of
>use case 1" ?
Yes ... <sighs again, nore deeply this time>

But the management summary is that I find "Stop and set cursor" extremely useful
especially now that it has its single key shortcut for "X marks the spot"

It's particularly useful btw when you are scrubbing/seeking.

Peter.

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Stevethefiddle
On 22 March 2017 at 16:55, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yes, Usecase 3 step 4 should indeed say "Press Play" - the vicissitudes of
> cut&paste <sighs>
>
>>Perhaps you mean "step 5 of use case 3" looks similar to "step 5 of
>>use case 1" ?
> Yes ... <sighs again, nore deeply this time>

:grin: never mind.

>
> But the management summary is that I find "Stop and set cursor" extremely
> useful
> especially now that it has its single key shortcut for "X marks the spot"

OK, it's useful, but that's not my question. In what way, if at all,
is it superior / better / different to "P"?
We have a chronic shortage of convenient shortcut keys available, and
it seems rather wasteful to use up "X" and "P" for essentially  the
same thing.

We already know that many novice users attempt to use "Pause" when
they should have used "Stop and set cursor", but that was when we
greyed out menus while paused. Now that we, or rather James, has fixed
that, do we still need "Stop and set cursor" now that "Pause" does
essentially the same thing?

An easy way to test: try changing the shortcut for "Pause" to "X" and
see how much you miss not having "Stop and set cursor".

Steve

>
> It's particularly useful btw when you are scrubbing/seeking.
>
> Peter.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
>OK, it's useful, but that's not my question. In what way, if at all,
>is it superior / better / different to "P"?
>We have a chronic shortage of convenient shortcut keys available, and
>it seems rather wasteful to use up "X" and "P" for essentially  the
>same thing.

It is "different" - not "superior" of "better" than "P" in that it resets the cursor to the current
play position - this is particularly useful when you are scrubbing, but also very useful
when using normal play.

It's hardly a new shortcut, just a simplification, we have had the awkward Shift+A for
a very long time now - "X" just replaces that one.

It was "superior to "P" prior to 2.1.3, as before that you could not invoke effects and
many other pieces of functionality while in Pause mode - in 2.1.3.thanks to James
you now can.

And it wold be a regression to take this useful functionality away.

Peter.

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
Well obviously I remain dubious on your change James unless you
are agreeing to provide some kind of option for 2.2.0 for which type of
Record is default.

Without that, this is a disruptive change to a behaviour that has
existed since the start of Audacity. Clearly many users in previous
Audacity could not find Record Append even with a tooltip on the
Record button.

The adjusted tooltip Record/Record New Track may help a little, but
I suspect to start with, we'll exchange one set of complaints for a
different set, including people who now have to go into Preferences
and change the keyboard shortcut if they want R to do Standard Record.

James's multi-buttons seem to need some configuration button to click
on, but which the Wiki image doesn't show. So I don't see a huge
difference between that a dropdown.

Generally if we want more modern icons I don't understand why we
persist with huge space-inefficient Transport buttons that make it
harder to have simple, separate buttons for different actions.

PS Please don't remove my text when you reply to me, James. Thanks.


Gale


On 22 March 2017 at 10:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.
>
> I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
> beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
> we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
> savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
> (i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/22/2017 5:16 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
>> the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
>> checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
>> changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
>> item.
> A more general cleaner mechanism would be:
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_MultiButtons
>
> The idea there is that the user becomes aware that there are multiple
> choices for the buttons in a family like record, play, zoom, and they
> choose which one appears in pole-position.
> Drop down menu beside is taking up more area than needed.  Instead a
> drop down arrow below the button that appears on hover would work
> better.  Additionally the buttons are configurable so you can set up new
> baroque combination options, like loop-play-at-x2.
>
>> With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
>> Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
>> arrows.
> +1.  In DarkAudacity RecordBelow does have a downward arrow.
>
> --James.
>
>
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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

James Crook
On 3/22/2017 7:01 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> Well obviously I remain dubious on your change James unless you
> are agreeing to provide some kind of option for 2.2.0 for which type of
> Record is default.
>
> Without that, this is a disruptive change to a behaviour that has
> existed since the start of Audacity. Clearly many users in previous
> Audacity could not find Record Append even with a tooltip on the
> Record button.
>
> The adjusted tooltip Record/Record New Track may help a little, but
> I suspect to start with, we'll exchange one set of complaints for a
> different set, including people who now have to go into Preferences
> and change the keyboard shortcut if they want R to do Standard Record.
I think overall the consensus is that the change (with wording change
from Steve) is a good one.
We can prioritise http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1613 
for 2.2.0 - I think it is a valuable would-be nice and something I would
use - so that you are not too unhappy about the change too.  I think a
preference is counterproductive, I think I've said enough why - but I am
not going to fight against it, and I left enough code in that it should
be clear to a programmer how to add one.


> James's multi-buttons seem to need some configuration button to click
> on, but which the Wiki image doesn't show. So I don't see a huge
> difference between that a dropdown.
Dropdown arrow appears on hover, and underneath, so it does not take up
more screen real estate.
There is an option to configure the buttons, so you can put the button
you want in pole position.

> Generally if we want more modern icons I don't understand why we
> persist with huge space-inefficient Transport buttons that make it
> harder to have simple, separate buttons for different actions.
It's part of graphic design called the 'little big principle'. There are
competing pulls.  As a programmer you want uniformity, everything 'the
same', and indeed you would eliminate menus entirely and different sizes
of buttons, and just use a grid of always visible buttons.  Less
programming.  However a user likes things to be prioritised, with more
important things given more.  The transport buttons are important, hence
the larger size.  You can't make everything bigger though.  You have to
be selective and choose what element you most want to attract focus from
the user.

> PS Please don't remove my text when you reply to me, James. Thanks.
Noted.
I will continue doing so for other people I reply to though.
And I will top post instead when messages get ridiculously indented.

--James.

>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 22 March 2017 at 10:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.
>>
>> I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
>> beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
>> we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
>> savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
>> (i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/2017 5:16 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
>>> the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
>>> checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
>>> changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
>>> item.
>> A more general cleaner mechanism would be:
>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_MultiButtons
>>
>> The idea there is that the user becomes aware that there are multiple
>> choices for the buttons in a family like record, play, zoom, and they
>> choose which one appears in pole-position.
>> Drop down menu beside is taking up more area than needed.  Instead a
>> drop down arrow below the button that appears on hover would work
>> better.  Additionally the buttons are configurable so you can set up new
>> baroque combination options, like loop-play-at-x2.
>>
>>> With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
>>> Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
>>> arrows.
>> +1.  In DarkAudacity RecordBelow does have a downward arrow.
>>
>> --James.


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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
James wrote:
>However a user likes things to be prioritised, with more >important things given more. 
>The transport buttons are important, hence the larger size.

+1

this is a good design principle.

Peter.

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Gale
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well obviously I remain dubious on your change James unless you
are agreeing to provide some kind of option for 2.2.0 for which type of
Record is default.

Without that, this is a disruptive change to a behaviour that has
existed since the start of Audacity.

Swapping the shortcuts for record and record append could be really confusing for keyboard users, who may have used one or both of these shortcuts for years. I can imagine quite a few laptops being thrown out the window.

David.
 
Clearly many users in previous
Audacity could not find Record Append even with a tooltip on the
Record button.

The adjusted tooltip Record/Record New Track may help a little, but
I suspect to start with, we'll exchange one set of complaints for a
different set, including people who now have to go into Preferences
and change the keyboard shortcut if they want R to do Standard Record.

James's multi-buttons seem to need some configuration button to click
on, but which the Wiki image doesn't show. So I don't see a huge
difference between that a dropdown.

Generally if we want more modern icons I don't understand why we
persist with huge space-inefficient Transport buttons that make it
harder to have simple, separate buttons for different actions.

PS Please don't remove my text when you reply to me, James. Thanks.


Gale


On 22 March 2017 at 10:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.
>
> I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
> beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
> we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
> savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
> (i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/22/2017 5:16 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
>> the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
>> checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
>> changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
>> item.
> A more general cleaner mechanism would be:
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_MultiButtons
>
> The idea there is that the user becomes aware that there are multiple
> choices for the buttons in a family like record, play, zoom, and they
> choose which one appears in pole-position.
> Drop down menu beside is taking up more area than needed.  Instead a
> drop down arrow below the button that appears on hover would work
> better.  Additionally the buttons are configurable so you can set up new
> baroque combination options, like loop-play-at-x2.
>
>> With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
>> Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
>> arrows.
> +1.  In DarkAudacity RecordBelow does have a downward arrow.
>
> --James.
>
>
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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Peter Sampson-2
Now that "record beside" has become the default with commit 1dce830
we will need to change the icon for the Shift amended Record button
(probably to something like the DarkAudacity one) to indictate the
"record below" nature of Record New Track.

Peter

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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
Feature Requests has quite a few votes that imply smaller buttons
(separate buttons for separate tasks, half-height Transport Toolbar
and so on).

If the space taken by the Transport buttons was used, it wouldn't
be so bad.


Gale


On 22 March 2017 at 19:48, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> James wrote:
>>However a user likes things to be prioritised, with more >important things
>> given more.
>>The transport buttons are important, hence the larger size.
>
> +1
>
> this is a good design principle.
>
> Peter.
>
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Re: Record menu/toolbar issues in 2.2.0 alpha

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 22 March 2017 at 19:34, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/22/2017 7:01 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> Well obviously I remain dubious on your change James unless you
>> are agreeing to provide some kind of option for 2.2.0 for which type of
>> Record is default.
>>
>> Without that, this is a disruptive change to a behaviour that has
>> existed since the start of Audacity. Clearly many users in previous
>> Audacity could not find Record Append even with a tooltip on the
>> Record button.
>>
>> The adjusted tooltip Record/Record New Track may help a little, but
>> I suspect to start with, we'll exchange one set of complaints for a
>> different set, including people who now have to go into Preferences
>> and change the keyboard shortcut if they want R to do Standard Record.
> I think overall the consensus is that the change (with wording change
> from Steve) is a good one.
> We can prioritise http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1613
> for 2.2.0 - I think it is a valuable would-be nice and something I would
> use - so that you are not too unhappy about the change too.  I think a
> preference is counterproductive, I think I've said enough why

I didn't seem to see the "why" specifics.  Your multi-buttons and support for
a customisable Transport Toolbar seem to imply it's a reasonable idea.  It's
just been made more important now.


> but I am not going to fight against it, and I left enough code in that it should
> be clear to a programmer how to add one.

>
>> James's multi-buttons seem to need some configuration button to click
>> on, but which the Wiki image doesn't show. So I don't see a huge
>> difference between that a dropdown.
> Dropdown arrow appears on hover, and underneath, so it does not take up
> more screen real estate.
> There is an option to configure the buttons, so you can put the button
> you want in pole position.
>
>> Generally if we want more modern icons I don't understand why we
>> persist with huge space-inefficient Transport buttons that make it
>> harder to have simple, separate buttons for different actions.
> It's part of graphic design called the 'little big principle'. There are
> competing pulls.  As a programmer you want uniformity, everything 'the
> same', and indeed you would eliminate menus entirely and different sizes
> of buttons, and just use a grid of always visible buttons.  Less
> programming.  However a user likes things to be prioritised, with more
> important things given more.  The transport buttons are important, hence
> the larger size.  You can't make everything bigger though.  You have to
> be selective and choose what element you most want to attract focus from
> the user.
>
>> PS Please don't remove my text when you reply to me, James. Thanks.
> Noted.
> I will continue doing so for other people I reply to though.
> And I will top post instead when messages get ridiculously indented.

Well so will I top post when necessary. But I try not to remove others'
text that I disagree with (or look as if I'm doing that).


Gale

>> On 22 March 2017 at 10:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> My view is that beginners need the default to be record-beside.
>>>
>>> I think we should generally optimise defaults for beginners, because
>>> beginners don't know how to explore and change preferences.  As soon as
>>> we are addressing more experienced users, we can assume that they are
>>> savvy enough to find preferences and make changes.  Making record-below
>>> (i.e. record adds to the mix) the default, is a design mistake.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/22/2017 5:16 AM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> IIRC James does not dismiss the idea of a dropdown menu to right of
>>>> the Record button. If so, that could perhaps have mutually exclusive
>>>> checkboxes for Record Below and Record Append (button icon
>>>> changes according to which item is checked) plus a "Swap shortcuts"
>>>> item.
>>> A more general cleaner mechanism would be:
>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_MultiButtons
>>>
>>> The idea there is that the user becomes aware that there are multiple
>>> choices for the buttons in a family like record, play, zoom, and they
>>> choose which one appears in pole-position.
>>> Drop down menu beside is taking up more area than needed.  Instead a
>>> drop down arrow below the button that appears on hover would work
>>> better.  Additionally the buttons are configurable so you can set up new
>>> baroque combination options, like loop-play-at-x2.
>>>
>>>> With that, I would not care too much if consensus wants Record
>>>> Append to be default. It might help if Record Below had downwards
>>>> arrows.
>>> +1.  In DarkAudacity RecordBelow does have a downward arrow.
>>>
>>> --James.
>
>
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