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Using the Selection Toolbar

Stevethefiddle
A question from watching a frustrated user:

A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
panel for applying effects or edits?

Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
"intuitive" answer?
The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
selection for the third time.

Steve

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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

James Crook
On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>
> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
> panel for applying effects or edits?
>
> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
> "intuitive" answer?
My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
selection, e.g. apply an effect.

> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
> selection for the third time.
>
> Steve


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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 06/05/2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>
> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
> panel for applying effects or edits?
>
> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
> "intuitive" answer?

>From my point of view, it would be pressing "Enter".
I often press enter by pure habit e.g. when I've selected another
project rate...

Robert

> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
> selection for the third time.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Bill Wharrie
In reply to this post by James Crook

> On 2017/05/06, at 10:18 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>
>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>
>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>> "intuitive" answer?
> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
> selection, e.g. apply an effect.

I think the problem Steve is describing is that of moving focus back to the track panel. SHIFT+CTRL+F6 does it, or CTRL+F6 twice.

I’ve run into this myself (wanting to move focus back to the track panel in order to expand or contract the selection across tracks) and had to look up the CTRL+F6 shortcut. It is documented in the right place

https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/audacity_selection.html#selbar

but one has to dig to find it.

Steve, could you describe what your frustrated user was trying to do?

I can see two ways out. I’ll bet the user was clicking in the track panel to return focus there. We could modify the behaviour of a click in the track panel to simply return focus there if the focus was elsewhere. I’d also be happy to have “enter” move focus from the Selection Toolbar to the track panel.

— Bill


>
>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>> selection for the third time.
>>
>> Steve
>
>
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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 6 May 2017 at 13:48, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>
> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
> panel for applying effects or edits?
>
> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
> "intuitive" answer?
> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
> selection for the third time.

How did the user move into Selection Toolbar in the first place?
If they are VI and used Ctrl + F6, then I would assume they
know the one step answer Ctrl  + Shift + F6.

If they moved into Selection Toolbar with the mouse, why is
the focus border around the track something that needs to
be immediately regained? If they do need to regain it, then
Shift-click on the Track Control Panel of the same track is
well documented.


Gale

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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 6 May 2017 at 15:18, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>
>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>
>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>> "intuitive" answer?
> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
> selection, e.g. apply an effect.

Which is fine IF a track was selected before creating the time
selection. If not, then the "Select all if none selected" behaviour
kicks in and they lose the time selection that they have carefully
created.

Steve

>
>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>> selection for the third time.
>>
>> Steve
>
>

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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Bill Wharrie
On 6 May 2017 at 19:05, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On 2017/05/06, at 10:18 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>>
>>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>>
>>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>>> "intuitive" answer?
>> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
>> selection, e.g. apply an effect.
>
> I think the problem Steve is describing is that of moving focus back to the track panel. SHIFT+CTRL+F6 does it, or CTRL+F6 twice.

Yes, that's the problem they were having - how to move focus back to
the track panel without losing the time selection

>
> I’ve run into this myself (wanting to move focus back to the track panel in order to expand or contract the selection across tracks) and had to look up the CTRL+F6 shortcut. It is documented in the right place
>
> https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/audacity_selection.html#selbar
>
> but one has to dig to find it.

Right - it's not at all "Intuitive".

>
> Steve, could you describe what your frustrated user was trying to do?

They wanted to apply an effect to an exact time region (possibly the
"Fade" effect, but that's unimportant.
What they did:

1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
2) Click in the track to move focus back - the selection is lost.
1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
2) Click in the track info panel to move focus back - the selection is lost.
1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
2) Click in the timeline to move focus back - the selection is lost.
1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
("all" has been selected)
3) Throw laptop through window (not literally, fortunately :-)

Steve

>
> I can see two ways out. I’ll bet the user was clicking in the track panel to return focus there. We could modify the behaviour of a click in the track panel to simply return focus there if the focus was elsewhere. I’d also be happy to have “enter” move focus from the Selection Toolbar to the track panel.
>
> — Bill
>
>
>>
>>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>>> selection for the third time.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>

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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 6 May 2017 at 19:44, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6 May 2017 at 13:48, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>
>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>
>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>> "intuitive" answer?
>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>> selection for the third time.
>
> How did the user move into Selection Toolbar in the first place?

Mouse click in the time control.

> If they are VI and used Ctrl + F6, then I would assume they
> know the one step answer Ctrl  + Shift + F6.
>
> If they moved into Selection Toolbar with the mouse, why is
> the focus border around the track something that needs to
> be immediately regained? If they do need to regain it, then
> Shift-click on the Track Control Panel of the same track is
> well documented.

Ctrl+Shift+F6 is also documented, but after trying Tab, Shift+Tab,
Alt+Tab, Click in Track, Click in Track Control Panel, Click in
Timeline, they were ready to give up.

Steve

>
>
> Gale
>
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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
This doesn't explain to me why they wanted to return focus to
the track, having used the mouse to remove focus from it.
Are they confusing focus with selection, thinking effects work
on the focused track?

Bill gave a case where you might want extend the selection
into other tracks, if you did not have them selected before
defining the selection region. But you say this user just wanted
to apply an effect.

When the user hovered over the Track Control Panel to click
in it, they could see a message in Status Bar to Ctrl-click there
to select/deselect the track. Why did they not do that? Doing it
twice would work fine if the track was already selected.

Steve wrote:
> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
> ("all" has been selected)

There must be a step missing there. If they really went straight
from Selection Toolbar to a Fade effect by mouse or keyboard,
they keep the selection.

Perhaps they clicked in the Track Panel background, which would
lead to autoselection of all. It wouldn't, if we implemented my
proposed enhancements for more intelligent autoselection).



Gale


On 6 May 2017 at 20:09, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6 May 2017 at 19:05, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017/05/06, at 10:18 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>>>
>>>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>>>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>>>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>>>
>>>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>>>> "intuitive" answer?
>>> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
>>> selection, e.g. apply an effect.
>>
>> I think the problem Steve is describing is that of moving focus back to the track panel. SHIFT+CTRL+F6 does it, or CTRL+F6 twice.
>
> Yes, that's the problem they were having - how to move focus back to
> the track panel without losing the time selection
>
>>
>> I’ve run into this myself (wanting to move focus back to the track panel in order to expand or contract the selection across tracks) and had to look up the CTRL+F6 shortcut. It is documented in the right place
>>
>> https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/audacity_selection.html#selbar
>>
>> but one has to dig to find it.
>
> Right - it's not at all "Intuitive".
>
>>
>> Steve, could you describe what your frustrated user was trying to do?
>
> They wanted to apply an effect to an exact time region (possibly the
> "Fade" effect, but that's unimportant.
> What they did:
>
> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
> 2) Click in the track to move focus back - the selection is lost.
> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
> 2) Click in the track info panel to move focus back - the selection is lost.
> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
> 2) Click in the timeline to move focus back - the selection is lost.
> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
> ("all" has been selected)
> 3) Throw laptop through window (not literally, fortunately :-)
>
> Steve
>
>>
>> I can see two ways out. I’ll bet the user was clicking in the track panel to return focus there. We could modify the behaviour of a click in the track panel to simply return focus there if the focus was elsewhere. I’d also be happy to have “enter” move focus from the Selection Toolbar to the track panel.
>>
>> — Bill
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>>>> selection for the third time.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

James Crook
On 5/6/2017 9:11 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:

> This doesn't explain to me why they wanted to return focus to
> the track, having used the mouse to remove focus from it.
> Are they confusing focus with selection, thinking effects work
> on the focused track?
>
> Bill gave a case where you might want extend the selection
> into other tracks, if you did not have them selected before
> defining the selection region. But you say this user just wanted
> to apply an effect.
>
> When the user hovered over the Track Control Panel to click
> in it, they could see a message in Status Bar to Ctrl-click there
> to select/deselect the track. Why did they not do that? Doing it
> twice would work fine if the track was already selected.
>
> Steve wrote:
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>> ("all" has been selected)
> There must be a step missing there. If they really went straight
> from Selection Toolbar to a Fade effect by mouse or keyboard,
> they keep the selection.
I think the missing detail is that they had a time selected and no
tracks selected.  However they had select-all-if-none enabled, so
applying Fade applied it to everything.



>
> Perhaps they clicked in the Track Panel background, which would
> lead to autoselection of all. It wouldn't, if we implemented my
> proposed enhancements for more intelligent autoselection).
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 6 May 2017 at 20:09, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 6 May 2017 at 19:05, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 2017/05/06, at 10:18 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>>>>
>>>>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>>>>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>>>>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>>>>> "intuitive" answer?
>>>> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
>>>> selection, e.g. apply an effect.
>>> I think the problem Steve is describing is that of moving focus back to the track panel. SHIFT+CTRL+F6 does it, or CTRL+F6 twice.
>> Yes, that's the problem they were having - how to move focus back to
>> the track panel without losing the time selection
>>
>>> I’ve run into this myself (wanting to move focus back to the track panel in order to expand or contract the selection across tracks) and had to look up the CTRL+F6 shortcut. It is documented in the right place
>>>
>>> https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/audacity_selection.html#selbar
>>>
>>> but one has to dig to find it.
>> Right - it's not at all "Intuitive".
>>
>>> Steve, could you describe what your frustrated user was trying to do?
>> They wanted to apply an effect to an exact time region (possibly the
>> "Fade" effect, but that's unimportant.
>> What they did:
>>
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Click in the track to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Click in the track info panel to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Click in the timeline to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>> ("all" has been selected)
>> 3) Throw laptop through window (not literally, fortunately :-)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>> I can see two ways out. I’ll bet the user was clicking in the track panel to return focus there. We could modify the behaviour of a click in the track panel to simply return focus there if the focus was elsewhere. I’d also be happy to have “enter” move focus from the Selection Toolbar to the track panel.
>>>
>>> — Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>>>>> selection for the third time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Peter Sampson-2


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 10:49 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5/6/2017 9:11 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> This doesn't explain to me why they wanted to return focus to
> the track, having used the mouse to remove focus from it.
> Are they confusing focus with selection, thinking effects work
> on the focused track?
>
> Bill gave a case where you might want extend the selection
> into other tracks, if you did not have them selected before
> defining the selection region. But you say this user just wanted
> to apply an effect.
>
> When the user hovered over the Track Control Panel to click
> in it, they could see a message in Status Bar to Ctrl-click there
> to select/deselect the track. Why did they not do that? Doing it
> twice would work fine if the track was already selected.
>
> Steve wrote:
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>> ("all" has been selected)
> There must be a step missing there. If they really went straight
> from Selection Toolbar to a Fade effect by mouse or keyboard,
> they keep the selection.
I think the missing detail is that they had a time selected and no
tracks selected.  However they had select-all-if-none enabled, so
applying Fade applied it to everything.

And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by default
so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little reason
to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.

As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for those that
find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.

Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
"friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands

Peter.
 



>
> Perhaps they clicked in the Track Panel background, which would
> lead to autoselection of all. It wouldn't, if we implemented my
> proposed enhancements for more intelligent autoselection).
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 6 May 2017 at 20:09, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 6 May 2017 at 19:05, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 2017/05/06, at 10:18 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>>>>
>>>>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>>>>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>>>>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>>>>> "intuitive" answer?
>>>> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
>>>> selection, e.g. apply an effect.
>>> I think the problem Steve is describing is that of moving focus back to the track panel. SHIFT+CTRL+F6 does it, or CTRL+F6 twice.
>> Yes, that's the problem they were having - how to move focus back to
>> the track panel without losing the time selection
>>
>>> I’ve run into this myself (wanting to move focus back to the track panel in order to expand or contract the selection across tracks) and had to look up the CTRL+F6 shortcut. It is documented in the right place
>>>
>>> https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/audacity_selection.html#selbar
>>>
>>> but one has to dig to find it.
>> Right - it's not at all "Intuitive".
>>
>>> Steve, could you describe what your frustrated user was trying to do?
>> They wanted to apply an effect to an exact time region (possibly the
>> "Fade" effect, but that's unimportant.
>> What they did:
>>
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Click in the track to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Click in the track info panel to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Click in the timeline to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>> ("all" has been selected)
>> 3) Throw laptop through window (not literally, fortunately :-)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>> I can see two ways out. I’ll bet the user was clicking in the track panel to return focus there. We could modify the behaviour of a click in the track panel to simply return focus there if the focus was elsewhere. I’d also be happy to have “enter” move focus from the Selection Toolbar to the track panel.
>>>
>>> — Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>>>>> selection for the third time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
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Re: Select all if none [was: Using the Selection Toolbar]

Bill Wharrie

On 2017/05/06, at 6:56 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by default
so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little reason
to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.

As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for those that
find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.

Agree. How many forum messages have we got of the form “I pressed delete and now my project is gone” versus “how come I can't apply any effects?” (when the cause is no selection versus being in Pause mode)?


Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
"friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands

Too complicated. Anyone using an editor of any kind (word, graphics, or audio) should understand “select, then act” or “noun, verb”. I thought I might support it without the complicated modeless dialog that stays on the screen while the user makes a selection, but I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.

Of course we’ve complicated this with the real-time effects where are enabled when there is no selection, but you still can’t apply them without a selection.

— Bill


Peter.
 



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Re: Select all if none [was: Using the Selection Toolbar]

Peter Sampson-2
Summary:
I propose  that we turn of the "select all if none selected" by default (Bill appears to support this).
I agree with Bill that in nothing is selected, then effects and analysers should remain grayed out as now.


Details:

Having read Bill's reply I must say that I agree with him and that that
proposal is far too complicated a solution - accordingly I am going to withdraw
my support for it.

My original idea was just to pop a simple error message if the user tried to click
a grayed-out plug-in, just telling them to make a selection - somehow over
the course of long discussions it morphed and extended into the overly
complex "hand-holding" proposal it is now.

I would still support such a simple error message.  This should be quick and
easy to implement if others agreed.


Having said that, I note that Bill also agrees that we should change the setting for
"select all if none" to be "off" as the safer setting for newbies and occasional users.
So that makes 2 QA folk. thus far, in favour of making this change.

Since we are making so many changes to the GUI anyway for 2.2.0 this would seem
to be the ideal time to make this change - we just need to advise users of the change(s).


And note carefully that I am no longer asking that we just remove this preference.
(Gale appears to need it to save his RSI so he is not "forced" to make a select all when
he wants/need to act on the whole project). 

If it were my choice alone then I would just remove it (how hard is it to use Ctrl+A to select
the whole project and then act?

For me the biggest danger is that there is no visual cue that this risky preference is
on - particulary for users who only rarely, or never, venture into preferences. 
I would expect , as a minimumthe whole project to actually show as being selected with
the waveform displayed in its shaded form when this is active.

Peter.


On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:25 AM, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2017/05/06, at 6:56 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by default
so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little reason
to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.

As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for those that
find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.

Agree. How many forum messages have we got of the form “I pressed delete and now my project is gone” versus “how come I can't apply any effects?” (when the cause is no selection versus being in Pause mode)?


Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
"friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands

Too complicated. Anyone using an editor of any kind (word, graphics, or audio) should understand “select, then act” or “noun, verb”. I thought I might support it without the complicated modeless dialog that stays on the screen while the user makes a selection, but I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.

Of course we’ve complicated this with the real-time effects where are enabled when there is no selection, but you still can’t apply them without a selection.

— Bill


Peter.
 



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Re: Select all if none [was: Using the Selection Toolbar]

James Crook
In reply to this post by Bill Wharrie
I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.
I have a different opinion on that point.

My experience is that many users of software with greyed out items have problems guessing why the items are greyed out.  This is true of Audacity too.  We introduced the select-all-if-none feature because far too many of our users were getting stuck, unable to apply an effect because they had not made a selection.

An extreme example of bad greying-out design I have seen is greying out an OK button when the combination of values on a dialog is invalid.  The OK cannot be executed, but without a clue as what to do to fix it the user is completely stuck.  The 'normal' fix is to leave the OK button enabled, and provide a message when the user clicks.  I would say that leaving menu items enabled, with a message when the user clicks, is somewhat similar.

--James.





On 5/7/2017 3:25 AM, Bill Wharrie wrote:

      
On 2017/05/06, at 6:56 PM, Peter Sampson [hidden email] wrote:
[snip]
And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by default
so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little reason
to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.

As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for those that
find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.
Agree. How many forum messages have we got of the form “I pressed delete and now my project is gone” versus “how come I can't apply any effects?” (when the cause is no selection versus being in Pause mode)?

Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
"friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands <http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands>
Too complicated. Anyone using an editor of any kind (word, graphics, or audio) should understand “select, then act” or “noun, verb”. I thought I might support it without the complicated modeless dialog that stays on the screen while the user makes a selection, but I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.

Of course we’ve complicated this with the real-time effects where are enabled when there is no selection, but you still can’t apply them without a selection.

— Bill

Peter.
 




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Re: Select all if none [was: Using the Selection Toolbar]

Peter Sampson-2


On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:32 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.
I have a different opinion on that point.

My experience is that many users of software with greyed out items have problems guessing why the items are greyed out.  This is true of Audacity too.  We introduced the select-all-if-none feature because far too many of our users were getting stuck, unable to apply an effect because they had not made a selection.

An extreme example of bad greying-out design I have seen is greying out an OK button when the combination of values on a dialog is invalid.  The OK cannot be executed, but without a clue as what to do to fix it the user is completely stuck.  The 'normal' fix is to leave the OK button enabled, and provide a message when the user clicks.  I would say that leaving menu items enabled, with a message when the user clicks, is somewhat similar.

Yes James, I am minded to agree -  but do you support the "complicated" modeless hand-holding dialog
or the simpler modal error message  that was mu original proposal?

I have updated the propisal this morning to re-intstate the simple modal error message
This would be quick and easy to implement and would then open the gate for us to beabale
to make "select all if none selected" to be"off" by default.

I argue this not from a personal usage perspective, but rather thinking about the countless newbies
and occasional users who get confused by both grayed-out commands and confused by unexpected
actions that arise from unknowingly having "Select all if none" set to "on". 

It never affects my production use as I have the nous and experience to turn this setting "off", but
most newbies and tyros won't (and they do deserve the nest protection we can offer thgem).

Peter

 

--James.





On 5/7/2017 3:25 AM, Bill Wharrie wrote:

      
On 2017/05/06, at 6:56 PM, Peter Sampson [hidden email] wrote:
[snip]
And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by default
so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little reason
to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.

As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for those that
find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.
Agree. How many forum messages have we got of the form “I pressed delete and now my project is gone” versus “how come I can't apply any effects?” (when the cause is no selection versus being in Pause mode)?


Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
"friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands <http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands>
Too complicated. Anyone using an editor of any kind (word, graphics, or audio) should understand “select, then act” or “noun, verb”. I thought I might support it without the complicated modeless dialog that stays on the screen while the user makes a selection, but I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.

Of course we’ve complicated this with the real-time effects where are enabled when there is no selection, but you still can’t apply them without a selection.

— Bill

Peter.
 


      

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Re: Select all if none [was: Using the Selection Toolbar]

James Crook
On 5/7/2017 10:51 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:32 AM, James Crook [hidden email] wrote:

I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.

I have a different opinion on that point.

My experience is that many users of software with greyed out items have
problems guessing why the items are greyed out.  This is true of Audacity
too.  We introduced the select-all-if-none feature because far too many of
our users were getting stuck, unable to apply an effect because they had
not made a selection.

An extreme example of bad greying-out design I have seen is greying out an
OK button when the combination of values on a dialog is invalid.  The OK
cannot be executed, but without a clue as what to do to fix it the user is
completely stuck.  The 'normal' fix is to leave the OK button enabled, and
provide a message when the user clicks.  I would say that leaving menu
items enabled, with a message when the user clicks, is somewhat similar.

Yes James, I am minded to agree -  but do you support the "complicated"
modeless hand-holding dialog
or the simpler modal error message  that was mu original proposal?

I updated the proposal page at much the same time as you, and with the same thinking.  A modal dialog is (IMO) better than a modeless one for this. 

--James.


I have updated the propisal this morning to re-intstate the simple modal
error message
as an implementation alternative:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands#Select_All_on_None
This would be quick and easy to implement and would then open the gate for
us to beabale
to make "select all if none selected" to be"off" by default.

I argue this not from a personal usage perspective, but rather thinking
about the countless newbies
and occasional users who get confused by both grayed-out commands and
confused by unexpected
actions that arise from unknowingly having "Select all if none" set to
"on".

It never affects my production use as I have the nous and experience to
turn this setting "off", but
most newbies and tyros won't (and they do deserve the nest protection we
can offer thgem).

Peter



--James.





On 5/7/2017 3:25 AM, Bill Wharrie wrote:

On 2017/05/06, at 6:56 PM, Peter Sampson [hidden email] [hidden email] wrote:
[snip]
And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by default
so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little reason
to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.

As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for those that
find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.

Agree. How many forum messages have we got of the form “I pressed delete and now my project is gone” versus “how come I can't apply any effects?” (when the cause is no selection versus being in Pause mode)?



Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
"friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands <http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands> <http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands>

Too complicated. Anyone using an editor of any kind (word, graphics, or audio) should understand “select, then act” or “noun, verb”. I thought I might support it without the complicated modeless dialog that stays on the screen while the user makes a selection, but I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.

Of course we’ve complicated this with the real-time effects where are enabled when there is no selection, but you still can’t apply them without a selection.

— Bill


Peter.





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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 6 May 2017 at 22:49, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/6/2017 9:11 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> This doesn't explain to me why they wanted to return focus to
>> the track, having used the mouse to remove focus from it.
>> Are they confusing focus with selection, thinking effects work
>> on the focused track?
>>
>> Bill gave a case where you might want extend the selection
>> into other tracks, if you did not have them selected before
>> defining the selection region. But you say this user just wanted
>> to apply an effect.
>>
>> When the user hovered over the Track Control Panel to click
>> in it, they could see a message in Status Bar to Ctrl-click there
>> to select/deselect the track. Why did they not do that?

I think you are overestimating the effectiveness of the status bar.
Many users don't even notice status bar messages, let alone read them.

>> Doing it
>> twice would work fine if the track was already selected.
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>>> ("all" has been selected)
>> There must be a step missing there. If they really went straight
>> from Selection Toolbar to a Fade effect by mouse or keyboard,
>> they keep the selection.
> I think the missing detail is that they had a time selected and no
> tracks selected.  However they had select-all-if-none enabled, so
> applying Fade applied it to everything.

Yes, but the user clearly did not understand that that was the
problem. They just got themselves into that situation "somehow" (it
really does not matter "how" - perhaps they had been doing something
with labels, or perhaps their random clicking deselected the track),
and once in the situation, couldn't work out how to get out of it.

The "problem" that I'm describing, is that there seems to be no
obvious or logical way to move focus back to a track without losing
the selected time region, or more generally, how to move back out of
the Selection toolbar. The Selection Toolbar appears to be unique in
this respect. For example, I can select a tool from the Tools toolbar
with a mouse click, and I don't lose focus from the track, but click
in a time control, and focus is "lost".

I'm not suggesting that this is a major problem, just passing on the
message that it is a problem for some users,

Steve

>
>
>
>>
>> Perhaps they clicked in the Track Panel background, which would
>> lead to autoselection of all. It wouldn't, if we implemented my
>> proposed enhancements for more intelligent autoselection).
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 6 May 2017 at 20:09, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 6 May 2017 at 19:05, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On 2017/05/06, at 10:18 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>>>>>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>>>>>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>>>>>> "intuitive" answer?
>>>>> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
>>>>> selection, e.g. apply an effect.
>>>> I think the problem Steve is describing is that of moving focus back to the track panel. SHIFT+CTRL+F6 does it, or CTRL+F6 twice.
>>> Yes, that's the problem they were having - how to move focus back to
>>> the track panel without losing the time selection
>>>
>>>> I’ve run into this myself (wanting to move focus back to the track panel in order to expand or contract the selection across tracks) and had to look up the CTRL+F6 shortcut. It is documented in the right place
>>>>
>>>> https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/audacity_selection.html#selbar
>>>>
>>>> but one has to dig to find it.
>>> Right - it's not at all "Intuitive".
>>>
>>>> Steve, could you describe what your frustrated user was trying to do?
>>> They wanted to apply an effect to an exact time region (possibly the
>>> "Fade" effect, but that's unimportant.
>>> What they did:
>>>
>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>> 2) Click in the track to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>> 2) Click in the track info panel to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>> 2) Click in the timeline to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>>> ("all" has been selected)
>>> 3) Throw laptop through window (not literally, fortunately :-)
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>> I can see two ways out. I’ll bet the user was clicking in the track panel to return focus there. We could modify the behaviour of a click in the track panel to simply return focus there if the focus was elsewhere. I’d also be happy to have “enter” move focus from the Selection Toolbar to the track panel.
>>>>
>>>> — Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>>>>>> selection for the third time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
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Re: Using the Selection Toolbar

Gale
Administrator
On 7 May 2017 at 15:32, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6 May 2017 at 22:49, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 5/6/2017 9:11 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> This doesn't explain to me why they wanted to return focus to
>>> the track, having used the mouse to remove focus from it.
>>> Are they confusing focus with selection, thinking effects work
>>> on the focused track?
>>>
>>> Bill gave a case where you might want extend the selection
>>> into other tracks, if you did not have them selected before
>>> defining the selection region. But you say this user just wanted
>>> to apply an effect.
>>>
>>> When the user hovered over the Track Control Panel to click
>>> in it, they could see a message in Status Bar to Ctrl-click there
>>> to select/deselect the track. Why did they not do that?
>
> I think you are overestimating the effectiveness of the status bar.
> Many users don't even notice status bar messages, let alone read them.

Regardless it suggests to me they are not a thinking, exploring
user (like so many of our users, really).


>>> Doing it
>>> twice would work fine if the track was already selected.
>>>
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>>>> ("all" has been selected)
>>> There must be a step missing there. If they really went straight
>>> from Selection Toolbar to a Fade effect by mouse or keyboard,
>>> they keep the selection.
>> I think the missing detail is that they had a time selected and no
>> tracks selected.  However they had select-all-if-none enabled, so
>> applying Fade applied it to everything.
>
> Yes, but the user clearly did not understand that that was the
> problem. They just got themselves into that situation "somehow" (it
> really does not matter "how" - perhaps they had been doing something
> with labels, or perhaps their random clicking deselected the track),
> and once in the situation, couldn't work out how to get out of it.
>
> The "problem" that I'm describing, is that there seems to be no
> obvious or logical way to move focus back to a track without losing
> the selected time region, or more generally, how to move back out of
> the Selection toolbar. The Selection Toolbar appears to be unique in
> this respect. For example, I can select a tool from the Tools toolbar
> with a mouse click, and I don't lose focus from the track, but click
> in a time control, and focus is "lost".

Yes, an interesting point and on recollection I'll concede this
has annoyed me once or twice.

Mouse-clicking dropdown menus takes focus too, as seen in
Device Toolbar and the rest of Selection Toolbar. Do they
need to? Is the reason that the user may want to change
more than one item at a time, so we let them use TAB to do
so? Or is it a wxWidgets decision?


Gale


> I'm not suggesting that this is a major problem, just passing on the
> message that it is a problem for some users,
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps they clicked in the Track Panel background, which would
>>> lead to autoselection of all. It wouldn't, if we implemented my
>>> proposed enhancements for more intelligent autoselection).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6 May 2017 at 20:09, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 6 May 2017 at 19:05, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2017/05/06, at 10:18 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/6/2017 1:48 PM, Steve the Fiddle wrote:
>>>>>>> A question from watching a frustrated user:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A time selection can be precisely defined using the time controls in
>>>>>>> the Selection Toolbar, but then, how to get focus back into the track
>>>>>>> panel for applying effects or edits?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes I do know several answers to this question, but is there an
>>>>>>> "intuitive" answer?
>>>>>> My answer would be that I would go to what I want to do with the
>>>>>> selection, e.g. apply an effect.
>>>>> I think the problem Steve is describing is that of moving focus back to the track panel. SHIFT+CTRL+F6 does it, or CTRL+F6 twice.
>>>> Yes, that's the problem they were having - how to move focus back to
>>>> the track panel without losing the time selection
>>>>
>>>>> I’ve run into this myself (wanting to move focus back to the track panel in order to expand or contract the selection across tracks) and had to look up the CTRL+F6 shortcut. It is documented in the right place
>>>>>
>>>>> https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/audacity_selection.html#selbar
>>>>>
>>>>> but one has to dig to find it.
>>>> Right - it's not at all "Intuitive".
>>>>
>>>>> Steve, could you describe what your frustrated user was trying to do?
>>>> They wanted to apply an effect to an exact time region (possibly the
>>>> "Fade" effect, but that's unimportant.
>>>> What they did:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>>> 2) Click in the track to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>>> 2) Click in the track info panel to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>>> 2) Click in the timeline to move focus back - the selection is lost.
>>>> 1) Make an 'exact' selection in the Selection toolbar.
>>>> 2) Go straight to the Fade effect and apply - the selection is lost
>>>> ("all" has been selected)
>>>> 3) Throw laptop through window (not literally, fortunately :-)
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>> I can see two ways out. I’ll bet the user was clicking in the track panel to return focus there. We could modify the behaviour of a click in the track panel to simply return focus there if the focus was elsewhere. I’d also be happy to have “enter” move focus from the Selection Toolbar to the track panel.
>>>>>
>>>>> — Bill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The user in question was becoming very agitated after losing their
>>>>>>> selection for the third time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
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Re: Select all if none [was: Using the Selection Toolbar]

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
Needless to say I am -1 on "Select all on none" off by default,
given
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands

has suddenly morphed back into a blocking, modal dialogue with
no inline help. I gave reasons there.

I can't understand why (I thought) there was near consensus at end
of 1.3 series to make "Select all on none" more intelligent, so that it
doesn't lead to people who have selections losing them. It did not
get done then because it was below priority to hold up 2.0.0.

Yet now, everyone seems to have changed their mind, and users
who know what they are doing and want to use that feature for the
considerable time saving it offers can't get it improved.

Very frustrating.


Gale



On 7 May 2017 at 10:05, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Summary:
> I propose  that we turn of the "select all if none selected" by default
> (Bill appears to support this).
> I agree with Bill that in nothing is selected, then effects and analysers
> should remain grayed out as now.
>
>
> Details:
>
> Having read Bill's reply I must say that I agree with him and that that
> proposal is far too complicated a solution - accordingly I am going to
> withdraw
> my support for it.
>
> My original idea was just to pop a simple error message if the user tried to
> click
> a grayed-out plug-in, just telling them to make a selection - somehow over
> the course of long discussions it morphed and extended into the overly
> complex "hand-holding" proposal it is now.
>
> I would still support such a simple error message.  This should be quick and
> easy to implement if others agreed.
>
>
> Having said that, I note that Bill also agrees that we should change the
> setting for
> "select all if none" to be "off" as the safer setting for newbies and
> occasional users.
> So that makes 2 QA folk. thus far, in favour of making this change.
>
> Since we are making so many changes to the GUI anyway for 2.2.0 this would
> seem
> to be the ideal time to make this change - we just need to advise users of
> the change(s).
>
>
> And note carefully that I am no longer asking that we just remove this
> preference.
> (Gale appears to need it to save his RSI so he is not "forced" to make a
> select all when
> he wants/need to act on the whole project).
>
> If it were my choice alone then I would just remove it (how hard is it to
> use Ctrl+A to select
> the whole project and then act?
>
> For me the biggest danger is that there is no visual cue that this risky
> preference is
> on - particulary for users who only rarely, or never, venture into
> preferences.
> I would expect , as a minimumthe whole project to actually show as being
> selected with
> the waveform displayed in its shaded form when this is active.
>
> Peter.
>
>
> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:25 AM, Bill Wharrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2017/05/06, at 6:56 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by
>> default
>> so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little
>> reason
>> to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.
>>
>> As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for
>> those that
>> find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.
>>
>>
>> Agree. How many forum messages have we got of the form “I pressed delete
>> and now my project is gone” versus “how come I can't apply any effects?”
>> (when the cause is no selection versus being in Pause mode)?
>>
>>
>> Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
>> "friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:
>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands
>>
>>
>> Too complicated. Anyone using an editor of any kind (word, graphics, or
>> audio) should understand “select, then act” or “noun, verb”. I thought I
>> might support it without the complicated modeless dialog that stays on the
>> screen while the user makes a selection, but I remain convinced that menu
>> commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.
>>
>> Of course we’ve complicated this with the real-time effects where are
>> enabled when there is no selection, but you still can’t apply them without a
>> selection.
>>
>> — Bill
>>
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Select all if none [was: Using the Selection Toolbar]

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
Another fix for greyed out OK in dialogues is to show a little
text inline. You can see an example in Bass and Treble and a
(broken) example in Normalize.


Gale


On 7 May 2017 at 10:32, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I remain convinced that menu commands that cannot be executed should be
> disabled.
>
> I have a different opinion on that point.
>
> My experience is that many users of software with greyed out items have
> problems guessing why the items are greyed out.  This is true of Audacity
> too.  We introduced the select-all-if-none feature because far too many of
> our users were getting stuck, unable to apply an effect because they had not
> made a selection.
>
> An extreme example of bad greying-out design I have seen is greying out an
> OK button when the combination of values on a dialog is invalid.  The OK
> cannot be executed, but without a clue as what to do to fix it the user is
> completely stuck.  The 'normal' fix is to leave the OK button enabled, and
> provide a message when the user clicks.  I would say that leaving menu items
> enabled, with a message when the user clicks, is somewhat similar.
>
> --James.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/7/2017 3:25 AM, Bill Wharrie wrote:
>
> On 2017/05/06, at 6:56 PM, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> [snip]
> And let us not forget that we still have "select-all-if-none" enabled by
> default
> so the hapless user, who will not have set this for themself, has little
> reason
> to figure out the underlying reason for this behaviour.
>
> As I've said many times before I don't mind if we keep this setting for
> those that
> find it useful - but it really should not be the default setting.
>
> Agree. How many forum messages have we got of the form “I pressed delete and
> now my project is gone” versus “how come I can't apply any effects?” (when
> the cause is no selection versus being in Pause mode)?
>
>
> Some months ago we proposed turning this off by default and adding the
> "friendly" message to advise users about the need for selction.  See:
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands
> <http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Non-grayed-out_editing_commands>
>
> Too complicated. Anyone using an editor of any kind (word, graphics, or
> audio) should understand “select, then act” or “noun, verb”. I thought I
> might support it without the complicated modeless dialog that stays on the
> screen while the user makes a selection, but I remain convinced that menu
> commands that cannot be executed should be disabled.
>
> Of course we’ve complicated this with the real-time effects where are
> enabled when there is no selection, but you still can’t apply them without a
> selection.
>
> — Bill
>
> Peter.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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