We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

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We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Paul Licameli
I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI file and basic playback worked.

But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto the Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as a waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the FFmpeg import plugin was doing it.

Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!

The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog telling me to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference may relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in Project.cpp.

PRL


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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Pokechu22
Huh, that's really odd.

I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
that implies it should...
(https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).

It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.

I have no clue how... interesting find.

--Poke

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI file and
> basic playback worked.
>
> But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto the
> Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as a
> waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the FFmpeg
> import plugin was doing it.
>
> Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>
> The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog telling me
> to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference may
> relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in Project.cpp.
>
> PRL
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> audacity-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Paul Licameli
t
The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as on Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.


On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22 <[hidden email]> wrote:
Huh, that's really odd.

I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
that implies it should...
(https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).

It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.

I have no clue how... interesting find.

--Poke

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;paul.licameli@gmail.com&#39;)">paul.licameli@...> wrote:
> I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI file and
> basic playback worked.
>
> But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto the
> Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as a
> waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the FFmpeg
> import plugin was doing it.
>
> Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>
> The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog telling me
> to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference may
> relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in Project.cpp.
>
> PRL
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> <a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;audacity-devel@lists.sourceforge.net&#39;)">audacity-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Robert Hänggi
2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
> t
> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as on
> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>

Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks ago.
I did the same investigation as you with the same result.

It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of FFMpeg.
To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".

Robert

>
> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>
>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
>> that implies it should...
>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>
>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.
>>
>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>
>> --Poke
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]
>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI file
>> and
>> > basic playback worked.
>> >
>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto the
>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as a
>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the FFmpeg
>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >
>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >
>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog
>> telling me
>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference may
>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>> > Project.cpp.
>> >
>> > PRL
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>
>

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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Stevethefiddle
That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".

Steve

On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
>> t
>> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as on
>> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>
>
> Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks ago.
> I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>
> It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of FFMpeg.
> To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>
> Robert
>>
>> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>>
>>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
>>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
>>> that implies it should...
>>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
>>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>>
>>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
>>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.
>>>
>>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>>
>>> --Poke
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI file
>>> and
>>> > basic playback worked.
>>> >
>>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto the
>>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as a
>>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the FFmpeg
>>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>> >
>>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>> >
>>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog
>>> telling me
>>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference may
>>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>> > Project.cpp.
>>> >
>>> > PRL
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>
>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Paul Licameli
Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As now, neither is the case.

As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for other reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.

PRL


On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".

Steve

On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
>> t
>> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as on
>> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>
>
> Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks ago.
> I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>
> It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of FFMpeg.
> To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>
> Robert
>>
>> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>>
>>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
>>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
>>> that implies it should...
>>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
>>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>>
>>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
>>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.
>>>
>>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>>
>>> --Poke
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI file
>>> and
>>> > basic playback worked.
>>> >
>>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto the
>>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as a
>>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the FFmpeg
>>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>> >
>>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>> >
>>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog
>>> telling me
>>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference may
>>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>> > Project.cpp.
>>> >
>>> > PRL
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>
>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Stevethefiddle
Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0

Steve

On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As now,
> neither is the case.
>
> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for other
> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>
> PRL
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
>> >> t
>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as
>> >> on
>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks ago.
>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >
>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>> > FFMpeg.
>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >
>> > Robert
>> >>
>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >>>
>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.
>> >>>
>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >>>
>> >>> --Poke
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >>> <[hidden email]
>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI
>> >>> > file
>> >>> and
>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as a
>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the
>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >>> >
>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog
>> >>> telling me
>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference
>> >>> > may
>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > PRL
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> ------------------
>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> ------------------
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Robert Hänggi
2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>

Sounds pretty good.
Is it some kind of mod file?

Robert

> Steve
>
> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As now,
>> neither is the case.
>>
>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>> other
>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> t
>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as
>>> >> on
>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks ago.
>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>> >
>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>>> > FFMpeg.
>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>> >
>>> > Robert
>>> >>
>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --Poke
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI
>>> >>> > file
>>> >>> and
>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto
>>> >>> > the
>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as
>>> >>> > a
>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the
>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog
>>> >>> telling me
>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference
>>> >>> > may
>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > PRL
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>> >
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Stevethefiddle
And the prize goes to Robert :-)
Yes it's a mod file.

I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
file.

I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
support  MOD files via libmodplug.

So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
document it.

Steve

On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>
>
> Sounds pretty good.
> Is it some kind of mod file?
>
> Robert
>> Steve
>>
>> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As now,
>>> neither is the case.
>>>
>>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>>> other
>>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >> t
>>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as
>>>> >> on
>>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks ago.
>>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>>> >
>>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>>>> > FFMpeg.
>>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>>> >
>>>> > Robert
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
>>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
>>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
>>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
>>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --Poke
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI
>>>> >>> > file
>>>> >>> and
>>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto
>>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as
>>>> >>> > a
>>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the
>>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog
>>>> >>> telling me
>>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference
>>>> >>> > may
>>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > PRL
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> ------------------
>>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> ------------------
>>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Paul Licameli
I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a similar enough format?

What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if some other format?

Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.

PRL


On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
And the prize goes to Robert :-)
Yes it's a mod file.

I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
file.

I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
support  MOD files via libmodplug.

So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
document it.

Steve

On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>
>
> Sounds pretty good.
> Is it some kind of mod file?
>
> Robert
>> Steve
>>
>> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As now,
>>> neither is the case.
>>>
>>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>>> other
>>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >> t
>>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on Windows as
>>>> >> on
>>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks ago.
>>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>>> >
>>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>>>> > FFMpeg.
>>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>>> >
>>>> > Robert
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes no
>>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the source
>>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but the
>>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but not
>>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is selected.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --Poke
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a MIDI
>>>> >>> > file
>>>> >>> and
>>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file onto
>>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!) as
>>>> >>> > a
>>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me the
>>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error dialog
>>>> >>> telling me
>>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the difference
>>>> >>> > may
>>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > PRL
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> ------------------
>>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> ------------------
>>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Gale
Administrator
As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.

I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
own.


Gale


On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
> similar enough format?
>
> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
> some other format?
>
> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>
> PRL
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>
>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>> file.
>>
>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>
>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> document it.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >>
>> >
>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >
>> > Robert
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As
>> >>> now,
>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >>>
>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>> >>> other
>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >>>
>> >>> PRL
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Steve
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >>>> >> t
>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >>>> >> on
>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks
>> >>>> > ago.
>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Robert
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes
>> >>>> >>> no
>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>> >>>> >>> source
>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but
>> >>>> >>> the
>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>> >>>> >>> not
>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >>>> >>> and
>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!)
>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Stevethefiddle
MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.

From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
"sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
"automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.

Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
"trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
"Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
support all of the variants.

As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
(hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
tracker that I used 20 years ago:
https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/

(I feel all nostalgic now ;-)

Steve

On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
> sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
> The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>
> I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
> data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
> own.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
>> similar enough format?
>>
>> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
>> some other format?
>>
>> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
>> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>>
>>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>>> file.
>>>
>>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>>
>>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>>> document it.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Sounds pretty good.
>>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>>> >
>>> > Robert
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As
>>> >>> now,
>>> >>> neither is the case.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>>> >>> other
>>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> PRL
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Steve
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>> >>>> >> t
>>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>>> >>>> >> Windows as
>>> >>>> >> on
>>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks
>>> >>>> > ago.
>>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Robert
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes
>>> >>>> >>> no
>>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>>> >>>> >>> source
>>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but
>>> >>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>>> >>>> >>> not
>>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>>> >>>> >>> selected.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>>> >>>> >>> > file
>>> >>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>>> >>>> >>> > onto
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!)
>>> >>>> >>> > as
>>> >>>> >>> > a
>>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>>> >>>> >>> telling me
>>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>>> >>>> >>> > difference
>>> >>>> >>> > may
>>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
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>>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
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>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>
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>>> >
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>>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Robert Hänggi
2017-04-02 21:22 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:

> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>
> From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>
> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
> support all of the variants.
>
> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/

Yep, I've downloaded it some weeks ago--after neglecting it for some
years. It is fairly accessible (except for the essential parts...)

Mod files are still important for some video games and there's a big
sub culture around it.

I don't know which program used *.mid for its module files.
However, I think it should be possible to test if it is a midi or
module file on import.
However, not of high priority yet.

Robert

 >

> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>
> Steve
>
> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they
>> are
>> sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>>
>> I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
>> data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
>> own.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>> On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
>>> similar enough format?
>>>
>>> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
>>> some other format?
>>>
>>> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
>>> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>>>
>>> PRL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>>>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>>>
>>>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>>>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>>>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>>>> file.
>>>>
>>>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>>>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>>>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>>>
>>>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>>>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>>>> document it.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>>>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Sounds pretty good.
>>>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>>>> >
>>>> > Robert
>>>> >> Steve
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?
>>>> >>> As
>>>> >>> now,
>>>> >>> neither is the case.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there
>>>> >>> for
>>>> >>> other
>>>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> PRL
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Steve
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>>>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>>> >>>> >> t
>>>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>>>> >>>> >> Windows as
>>>> >>>> >> on
>>>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some
>>>> >>>> > weeks
>>>> >>>> > ago.
>>>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature
>>>> >>>> > of
>>>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>>>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Robert
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site
>>>> >>>> >>> makes
>>>> >>>> >>> no
>>>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>>>> >>>> >>> source
>>>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are,
>>>> >>>> >>> but
>>>> >>>> >>> the
>>>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>>>> >>>> >>> not
>>>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>>>> >>>> >>> selected.
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>>>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>>>> >>>> >>> > file
>>>> >>>> >>> and
>>>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>>>> >>>> >>> > onto
>>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>>>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>>>> >>>> >>> > as
>>>> >>>> >>> > a
>>>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>>>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>>>> >>>> >>> telling me
>>>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>>>> >>>> >>> > difference
>>>> >>>> >>> > may
>>>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>>> >>>> >>> > most
>>>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>>>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>> >>>> [hidden email]
>>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>> >>> [hidden email]
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>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
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>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
I used in MS-DOS something called MODEDIT. It supported the famous .mod 4-track format. THere were also other formats, like s3m (I used InertiaPlayer for those). Currently, as Steve says, lots of tracker groups going on!


On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.

>From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
"sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
"automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.

Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
"trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
"Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
support all of the variants.

As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
(hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
tracker that I used 20 years ago:
https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/

(I feel all nostalgic now ;-)

Steve

On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
> sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
> The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>
> I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
> data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
> own.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it a
>> similar enough format?
>>
>> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
>> some other format?
>>
>> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
>> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>>
>> PRL
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>>> Yes it's a mod file.
>>>
>>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>>> file.
>>>
>>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>>>
>>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>>> document it.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>:
>>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Sounds pretty good.
>>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>>> >
>>> > Robert
>>> >> Steve
>>> >>
>>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?  As
>>> >>> now,
>>> >>> neither is the case.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
>>> >>> other
>>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> PRL
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
>>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Steve
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>>> >>>> >> t
>>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>>> >>>> >> Windows as
>>> >>>> >> on
>>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks
>>> >>>> > ago.
>>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
>>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Robert
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site makes
>>> >>>> >>> no
>>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>>> >>>> >>> source
>>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but
>>> >>>> >>> the
>>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both in
>>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
>>> >>>> >>> not
>>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>>> >>>> >>> selected.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
>>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>>> >>>> >>> > file
>>> >>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID file
>>> >>>> >>> > onto
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!)
>>> >>>> >>> > as
>>> >>>> >>> > a
>>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed me
>>> >>>> >>> > the
>>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>>> >>>> >>> telling me
>>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>>> >>>> >>> > difference
>>> >>>> >>> > may
>>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
>>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>> >
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> [hidden email]
>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
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>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> >> audacity-devel mailing list
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>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Stevethefiddle
I would guess that when Audacity has better support for MIDI that we
would want to be able to import note tracks by dropping MIDI files
into the application? If so, then we probably do need to block FFmpeg
from rendering MID files so that Audacity can handle them properly.

Steve

On 3 April 2017 at 16:52, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I used in MS-DOS something called MODEDIT. It supported the famous .mod
> 4-track format. THere were also other formats, like s3m (I used
> InertiaPlayer for those). Currently, as Steve says, lots of tracker groups
> going on!
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>>
>> >From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
>> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
>> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
>> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
>> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
>> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
>> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
>> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
>> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>>
>> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
>> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
>> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
>> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
>> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
>> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
>> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
>> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
>> support all of the variants.
>>
>> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
>> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
>> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
>> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
>> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
>> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
>> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
>>
>> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they
>> > are
>> > sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> > The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>> >
>> > I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
>> > data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on
>> > its
>> > own.
>> >
>> >
>> > Gale
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it
>> >> a
>> >> similar enough format?
>> >>
>> >> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as
>> >> if
>> >> some other format?
>> >>
>> >> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but
>> >> the
>> >> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>> >>
>> >> PRL
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> >>> Yes it's a mod file.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>> >>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>> >>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>> >>> file.
>> >>>
>> >>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> >>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> >>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>> >>>
>> >>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>> >>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> >>> document it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Steve
>> >>>
>> >>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>> >>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> >>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Robert
>> >>> >> Steve
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?
>> >>> >>> As
>> >>> >>> now,
>> >>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there
>> >>> >>> for
>> >>> >>> other
>> >>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> PRL
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for
>> >>> >>>> people
>> >>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> Steve
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> >>>> >> t
>> >>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>> >>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >>> >>>> >> on
>> >>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >>> >>>> >>
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some
>> >>> >>>> > weeks
>> >>> >>>> > ago.
>> >>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official
>> >>> >>>> > feature of
>> >>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> > Robert
>> >>> >>>> >>
>> >>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >>>> >>
>> >>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site
>> >>> >>>> >>> makes
>> >>> >>>> >>> no
>> >>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>> >>> >>>> >>> source
>> >>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are,
>> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both
>> >>> >>>> >>> in
>> >>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected,
>> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >>> >>>> >>> not
>> >>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>> >>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>> >>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported
>> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >>> >>>> >>> and
>> >>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID
>> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>> >>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>> >>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed
>> >>> >>>> >>> > me
>> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>> >>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget
>> >>> >>>> >>> > in
>> >>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >>> >>>> >>> > most
>> >>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >>> >>>> >>> most
>> >>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>> >>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> >> [hidden email]
>> >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>> > [hidden email]
>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Paul Licameli
importing as a Note track surely makes more sense. Making mix& render convert MIDI to a wave track would make sense too if there is a good library to add to our lib-src.


On Monday, April 3, 2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would guess that when Audacity has better support for MIDI that we
would want to be able to import note tracks by dropping MIDI files
into the application? If so, then we probably do need to block FFmpeg
from rendering MID files so that Audacity can handle them properly.

Steve

On 3 April 2017 at 16:52, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman
<<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;buanzo@buanzo.com.ar&#39;)">buanzo@...> wrote:
> I used in MS-DOS something called MODEDIT. It supported the famous .mod
> 4-track format. THere were also other formats, like s3m (I used
> InertiaPlayer for those). Currently, as Steve says, lots of tracker groups
> going on!
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Steve the Fiddle <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;stevethefiddle@gmail.com&#39;)">stevethefiddle@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>>
>> >From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
>> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
>> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
>> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
>> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
>> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
>> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
>> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
>> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>>
>> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
>> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
>> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
>> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
>> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
>> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
>> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
>> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
>> support all of the variants.
>>
>> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
>> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
>> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
>> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
>> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
>> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
>> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
>>
>> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;gale@audacityteam.org&#39;)">gale@...> wrote:
>> > As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they
>> > are
>> > sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> > The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>> >
>> > I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
>> > data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on
>> > its
>> > own.
>> >
>> >
>> > Gale
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;paul.licameli@gmail.com&#39;)">paul.licameli@...> wrote:
>> >> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is it
>> >> a
>> >> similar enough format?
>> >>
>> >> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as
>> >> if
>> >> some other format?
>> >>
>> >> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but
>> >> the
>> >> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>> >>
>> >> PRL
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;stevethefiddle@gmail.com&#39;)">stevethefiddle@...>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> >>> Yes it's a mod file.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
>> >>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>> >>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>> >>> file.
>> >>>
>> >>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> >>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> >>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>> >>>
>> >>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>> >>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> >>> document it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Steve
>> >>>
>> >>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;aarjay.robert@gmail.com&#39;)">aarjay.robert@...>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>> >>> > <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;stevethefiddle@gmail.com&#39;)">stevethefiddle@...>:
>> >>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> >>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Robert
>> >>> >> Steve
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;paul.licameli@gmail.com&#39;)">paul.licameli@...>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?
>> >>> >>> As
>> >>> >>> now,
>> >>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there
>> >>> >>> for
>> >>> >>> other
>> >>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> PRL
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >>> >>> <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;stevethefiddle@gmail.com&#39;)">stevethefiddle@...>
>> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for
>> >>> >>>> people
>> >>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> Steve
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;aarjay.robert@gmail.com&#39;)">aarjay.robert@...>
>> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >>> >>>> > <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;paul.licameli@gmail.com&#39;)">paul.licameli@...>:
>> >>> >>>> >> t
>> >>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>> >>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >>> >>>> >> on
>> >>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >>> >>>> >>
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some
>> >>> >>>> > weeks
>> >>> >>>> > ago.
>> >>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official
>> >>> >>>> > feature of
>> >>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >>> >>>> >
>> >>> >>>> > Robert
>> >>> >>>> >>
>> >>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >>> >>>> >> <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;pokechu022+sf-audacity-devel@gmail.com&#39;)">pokechu022+sf-audacity-devel@...>
>> >>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >>>> >>
>> >>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their site
>> >>> >>>> >>> makes
>> >>> >>>> >>> no
>> >>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
>> >>> >>>> >>> source
>> >>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are,
>> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works (both
>> >>> >>>> >>> in
>> >>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected,
>> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >>> >>>> >>> not
>> >>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>> >>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >>> >>>> >>> <<a href="javascript:;" onclick="_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;paul.licameli@gmail.com&#39;)">paul.licameli@...
>> >>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported
>> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >>> >>>> >>> and
>> >>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID
>> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>> >>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>> >>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging showed
>> >>> >>>> >>> > me
>> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an error
>> >>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget
>> >>> >>>> >>> > in
>> >>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Gale
Administrator
Audacity should drag and drop to open its own project format too
(IMO).


Gale


On 3 April 2017 at 18:43, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> importing as a Note track surely makes more sense. Making mix& render
> convert MIDI to a wave track would make sense too if there is a good library
> to add to our lib-src.
>
>
> On Monday, April 3, 2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I would guess that when Audacity has better support for MIDI that we
>> would want to be able to import note tracks by dropping MIDI files
>> into the application? If so, then we probably do need to block FFmpeg
>> from rendering MID files so that Audacity can handle them properly.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 3 April 2017 at 16:52, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I used in MS-DOS something called MODEDIT. It supported the famous .mod
>> > 4-track format. THere were also other formats, like s3m (I used
>> > InertiaPlayer for those). Currently, as Steve says, lots of tracker
>> > groups
>> > going on!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>> >>
>> >> >From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
>> >> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
>> >> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
>> >> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
>> >> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
>> >> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
>> >> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
>> >> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
>> >> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>> >>
>> >> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
>> >> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
>> >> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
>> >> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
>> >> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
>> >> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
>> >> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
>> >> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
>> >> support all of the variants.
>> >>
>> >> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
>> >> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
>> >> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
>> >> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
>> >> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
>> >> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
>> >> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
>> >>
>> >> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as
>> >> > they
>> >> > are
>> >> > sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> >> > The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
>> >> > data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information
>> >> > on
>> >> > its
>> >> > own.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Gale
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> similar enough format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> some other format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> PRL
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> >> >>> Yes it's a mod file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is
>> >> >>> an
>> >> >>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>> >> >>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>> >> >>> file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> >> >>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> >> >>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>> >> >>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> >> >>> document it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Steve
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> >> >>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >> Steve
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on
>> >> >>> >>> none?
>> >> >>> >>> As
>> >> >>> >>> now,
>> >> >>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put
>> >> >>> >>> there
>> >> >>> >>> for
>> >> >>> >>> other
>> >> >>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> PRL
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >> >>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for
>> >> >>> >>>> people
>> >> >>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> Steve
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi
>> >> >>> >>>> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> >>>> >> t
>> >> >>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >> >>> >>>> >> on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some
>> >> >>> >>>> > weeks
>> >> >>> >>>> > ago.
>> >> >>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official
>> >> >>> >>>> > feature of
>> >> >>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >> >>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> site
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> makes
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> no
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> source
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> are,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> (both
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> not
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > imported
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> and
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > showed
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > error
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > DropTarget
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> > most
>> >> >>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> > [hidden email]
>> >> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli
On 3 April 2017 at 18:43, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> importing as a Note track surely makes more sense. Making mix& render
> convert MIDI to a wave track would make sense too if there is a good library
> to add to our lib-src.

libfluidsynth http://fluidsynth.sourceforge.net/api/

Steve


>
>
> On Monday, April 3, 2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I would guess that when Audacity has better support for MIDI that we
>> would want to be able to import note tracks by dropping MIDI files
>> into the application? If so, then we probably do need to block FFmpeg
>> from rendering MID files so that Audacity can handle them properly.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 3 April 2017 at 16:52, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I used in MS-DOS something called MODEDIT. It supported the famous .mod
>> > 4-track format. THere were also other formats, like s3m (I used
>> > InertiaPlayer for those). Currently, as Steve says, lots of tracker
>> > groups
>> > going on!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>> >>
>> >> >From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
>> >> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
>> >> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
>> >> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
>> >> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
>> >> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
>> >> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
>> >> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
>> >> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>> >>
>> >> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
>> >> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
>> >> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
>> >> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
>> >> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
>> >> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
>> >> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
>> >> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
>> >> support all of the variants.
>> >>
>> >> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
>> >> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
>> >> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
>> >> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
>> >> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
>> >> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
>> >> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
>> >>
>> >> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as
>> >> > they
>> >> > are
>> >> > sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> >> > The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
>> >> > data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information
>> >> > on
>> >> > its
>> >> > own.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Gale
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> similar enough format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> some other format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> PRL
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> >> >>> Yes it's a mod file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is
>> >> >>> an
>> >> >>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>> >> >>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>> >> >>> file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> >> >>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> >> >>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>> >> >>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> >> >>> document it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Steve
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> >> >>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >> Steve
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on
>> >> >>> >>> none?
>> >> >>> >>> As
>> >> >>> >>> now,
>> >> >>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put
>> >> >>> >>> there
>> >> >>> >>> for
>> >> >>> >>> other
>> >> >>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> PRL
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >> >>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for
>> >> >>> >>>> people
>> >> >>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> Steve
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi
>> >> >>> >>>> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> >>>> >> t
>> >> >>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >> >>> >>>> >> on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some
>> >> >>> >>>> > weeks
>> >> >>> >>>> > ago.
>> >> >>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official
>> >> >>> >>>> > feature of
>> >> >>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >> >>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> site
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> makes
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> no
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> source
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> are,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> (both
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> not
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > imported
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> and
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > showed
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > error
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > DropTarget
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> > most
>> >> >>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> > [hidden email]
>> >> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> >> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> > [hidden email]
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> [hidden email]
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Robert Hänggi
In reply to this post by Paul Licameli
2017-04-03 19:43 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>:
> importing as a Note track surely makes more sense. Making mix& render
> convert MIDI to a wave track would make sense too if there is a good
> library to add to our lib-src.
>
This will be needed anyway, I think.

I've shortly tested Midi output.
I assume that it uses (on Windows 7) the Microsoft GS wavetable synth?
If this is the Midi mapper default, of course.

Unfortunately, on Windows 7, this setting can't be changed with the
control panel.
Thus, we'll need an additional device setting before long.
I've  also used a software synth with soundfonts.
Quite complicated to get it working...
However, my computer is not fast enough to play it smoothly to a soft
synth without drop-outs or hang-ups.

Robert

>
> On Monday, April 3, 2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I would guess that when Audacity has better support for MIDI that we
>> would want to be able to import note tracks by dropping MIDI files
>> into the application? If so, then we probably do need to block FFmpeg
>> from rendering MID files so that Audacity can handle them properly.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 3 April 2017 at 16:52, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman
>> <[hidden email] <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> > I used in MS-DOS something called MODEDIT. It supported the famous .mod
>> > 4-track format. THere were also other formats, like s3m (I used
>> > InertiaPlayer for those). Currently, as Steve says, lots of tracker
>> groups
>> > going on!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Steve the Fiddle <
>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>> >>
>> >> >From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
>> >> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
>> >> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
>> >> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
>> >> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
>> >> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
>> >> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
>> >> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
>> >> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>> >>
>> >> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
>> >> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
>> >> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
>> >> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
>> >> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
>> >> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
>> >> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
>> >> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
>> >> support all of the variants.
>> >>
>> >> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
>> >> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
>> >> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
>> >> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
>> >> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
>> >> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
>> >> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
>> >>
>> >> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]
>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >> > As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as
>> they
>> >> > are
>> >> > sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> >> > The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the
>> >> > audio
>> >> > data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information
>> >> > on
>> >> > its
>> >> > own.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Gale
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]
>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >> >> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is
>> it
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> similar enough format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files
>> as
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> some other format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's
>> >> >> weird.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> PRL
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >> <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> >> >>> Yes it's a mod file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is
>> an
>> >> >>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and
>> >> >>> is
>> >> >>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> >> >>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> >> >>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop
>> >> >>> mod
>> >> >>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> >> >>> document it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Steve
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]
>> <javascript:;>>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> > <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>:
>> >> >>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> >> >>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >> Steve
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >> <[hidden email]
>> <javascript:;>>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on
>> none?
>> >> >>> >>> As
>> >> >>> >>> now,
>> >> >>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put
>> there
>> >> >>> >>> for
>> >> >>> >>> other
>> >> >>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> PRL
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> >>> <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >> >>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for
>> >> >>> >>>> people
>> >> >>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> Steve
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi <
>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>>
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> > <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>:
>> >> >>> >>>> >> t
>> >> >>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this
>> >> >>> >>>> >> on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >> >>> >>>> >> on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it
>> >> >>> >>>> > some
>> >> >>> >>>> > weeks
>> >> >>> >>>> > ago.
>> >> >>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official
>> >> >>> >>>> > feature of
>> >> >>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >> >>> >>>> >> <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> site
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> makes
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> no
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> source
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&
>> q=midi&type=
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those
>> are,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works
>> (both
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files"
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> selected,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> not
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files"
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> is
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and
>> imported
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> and
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > .MID
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > showed
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an
>> error
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > DropTarget
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------
>> ------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>> world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/
>> lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------
>> ------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/
>> lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
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>> >> >>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>> >>>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>> most
>> >> >>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
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>> >
>> >
>> >
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>>
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Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?

Paul Licameli
In reply to this post by Gale


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
Audacity should drag and drop to open its own project format too
(IMO).


Gale

I concur.
PRL
 


On 3 April 2017 at 18:43, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> importing as a Note track surely makes more sense. Making mix& render
> convert MIDI to a wave track would make sense too if there is a good library
> to add to our lib-src.
>
>
> On Monday, April 3, 2017, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I would guess that when Audacity has better support for MIDI that we
>> would want to be able to import note tracks by dropping MIDI files
>> into the application? If so, then we probably do need to block FFmpeg
>> from rendering MID files so that Audacity can handle them properly.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 3 April 2017 at 16:52, Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I used in MS-DOS something called MODEDIT. It supported the famous .mod
>> > 4-track format. THere were also other formats, like s3m (I used
>> > InertiaPlayer for those). Currently, as Steve says, lots of tracker
>> > groups
>> > going on!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.
>> >>
>> >> >From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to
>> >> play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
>> >> "sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
>> >> Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
>> >> being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
>> >> "automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
>> >> hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
>> >> continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
>> >> machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
>> >>
>> >> Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
>> >> "trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
>> >> using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
>> >> MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
>> >> variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
>> >> file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
>> >> "Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
>> >> enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
>> >> support all of the variants.
>> >>
>> >> As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
>> >> handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
>> >> (hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
>> >> Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
>> >> still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
>> >> tracker that I used 20 years ago:
>> >> https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
>> >>
>> >> (I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> On 2 April 2017 at 19:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as
>> >> > they
>> >> > are
>> >> > sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
>> >> > The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
>> >> > data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information
>> >> > on
>> >> > its
>> >> > own.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Gale
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 2 April 2017 at 18:34, Paul Licameli <[hidden email]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> I know nothing about .mod files.  No relation to .mid files?  Or is
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> similar enough format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do we think is happening?  Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> some other format?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result.  It's weird.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> PRL
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And the prize goes to Robert :-)
>> >> >>> Yes it's a mod file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is
>> >> >>> an
>> >> >>> accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
>> >> >>> using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
>> >> >>> file.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
>> >> >>> everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
>> >> >>> support  MOD files via libmodplug.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
>> >> >>> file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
>> >> >>> document it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Steve
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 1 April 2017 at 18:55, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > 2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> >> Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Sounds pretty good.
>> >> >>> > Is it some kind of mod file?
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >> Steve
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On 1 April 2017 at 15:58, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>> Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on
>> >> >>> >>> none?
>> >> >>> >>> As
>> >> >>> >>> now,
>> >> >>> >>> neither is the case.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put
>> >> >>> >>> there
>> >> >>> >>> for
>> >> >>> >>> other
>> >> >>> >>> reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> PRL
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> >>> >>> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
>> >> >>> >>>> OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for
>> >> >>> >>>> people
>> >> >>> >>>> wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> Steve
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On 1 April 2017 at 12:30, Robert Hänggi
>> >> >>> >>>> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> > 2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> > <[hidden email]>:
>> >> >>> >>>> >> t
>> >> >>> >>>> >> The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Windows as
>> >> >>> >>>> >> on
>> >> >>> >>>> >> Mac.  Did you try it? Awful.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some
>> >> >>> >>>> > weeks
>> >> >>> >>>> > ago.
>> >> >>> >>>> > I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official
>> >> >>> >>>> > feature of
>> >> >>> >>>> > FFMpeg.
>> >> >>> >>>> > To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > Robert
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22
>> >> >>> >>>> >> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Huh, that's really odd.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly.  Their
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> site
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> makes
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> no
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> source
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> that implies it should...
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> (https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> are,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> extension is sds), but not midi itself).  Yet it works
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> (both
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected,
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> but
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> not
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> selected.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> I have no clue how... interesting find.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> --Poke
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <[hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > imported
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > MIDI
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> and
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > basic playback worked.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > But I also made a discovery.  I can drag and drop a .MID
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > file
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > onto
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > timbres!)
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > as
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > a
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > waveform.  This happens even in master.  Debugging
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > showed
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > FFmpeg
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > import plugin was doing it.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Did we know we had this feature?  I didn't!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > The same does not happen on macOS.  Instead I get an
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > error
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > dialog
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> telling me
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > to use Import MIDI... in the menus.  The reason for the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > difference
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > may
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > relate to the conditional compilation in class
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > DropTarget
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > in
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Project.cpp.
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > PRL
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> > most
>> >> >>> >>>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> > [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>> >> >>> >>>> most
>> >> >>> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> >> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> > audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> > [hidden email]
>> >> >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >> >>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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