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Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
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An advantage of another Bugzilla product for enh's is that we can move
existing enh's more easily.

Is Q&A software suitable for long responses as in Bug 1331, and can
"answers" be trimmed or removed - one of the major failings of Bugzilla?
Can the importance of the "question" be rated directly?

The current enh http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1580
is very like http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Wording but not the same.
But I think I'm correct in saying it is actually only text replacement in the
code, not a coding change as such.


Gale


On 24 January 2017 at 11:43, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1/24/2017 10:50 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>> Steve's points about tracking feature requests are relevant here.
>>> It WOULD be nice to have a non-bugzilla mechanism to track
>>> and rate suggestions like this one.
>> I agree - would it be possible for us to run two separate Bugzilla databases
>> one for bugs and the other for enhancements?
>
> Don't think a bugzilla tracker is right for those enhancement and
> feature requests that we agree aren't bugs.  Q&A software would work
> better, allowing good ideas to 'float to the top', but is still not
> ideal.  Question2Answer looks to be one of the best Q&A platforms.
>
> http://www.question2answer.org/qa/55932/show-profile-picture-on-question-page
>
>
> A question would be a proposal, and answers would be individuals
> responses/refinements to the proposal.  Voting should bring the best
> proposals and responses to the top.
>
> The problem with enhancements is that they need discussion - which clogs
> up the comment trail in bugzilla.  With Q&A software there is pattern of
> summary.  And it has voting built in.
>
> --James.

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Peter Sampson-2
Could we not continue to use the single Bugzilla
but have additional filters for:
a) show me all bugs,
b) show me all enhancements,
c) show me both ?

These setting to be ANDed with the Search box criterion the user chooses/

Peter.

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

James Crook
In reply to this post by Gale
On 1/24/2017 12:10 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
> An advantage of another Bugzilla product for enh's is that we can move
> existing enh's more easily.
>
> Is Q&A software suitable for long responses as in Bug 1331,
Yes.
> and can "answers" be trimmed or removed - one of the major failings of Bugzilla?
Yes.
> Can the importance of the "question" be rated directly?
Via up/down voting, Yes.

I would suggest that if we use Question2Answer for feature requests we
make voting open to the world, and use tags for our own tracking of what
we want to act on.  E.g 'Make an Android version' might get a lot of
votes, but not be tagged by us for action.

When we want to see what we want to act on, we look for questions by
tag.  When we want to see what is popular with users, we look by vote.



> The current enh http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1580
> is very like http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Wording but not the same.
> But I think I'm correct in saying it is actually only text replacement in the
> code, not a coding change as such.
It probably is just text replacement.

--James.

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

James Crook
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2

On 1/24/2017 12:35 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
> Could we not continue to use the single Bugzilla
> but have additional filters for:
> a) show me all bugs,
> b) show me all enhancements,
> c) show me both ?

Yes we could.  We already can.

I do not want to open the flood gates and encourage feature requests to
be entered as enhancements in Bugzilla.  That would add over 400 Enh:
bugs, each of which requires detailed discussion to decide exactly what
we want to implement before we have a hope of clearing it.

Feature requests should be fun, not counted as black marks against us.  
The feature-base should be overflowing with good ideas for possible new
improvements to Audacity.  The best should float to the top.

The enhancements that we currently have in bugzilla are (supposed to be)
ones that are near the borderline of what could be considered bugs.  
These are the least fun enhancements to work on.

--James.

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Peter Sampson-2
James wrote:
>The enhancements that we currently have in bugzilla are (supposed to be)
>ones that are near the borderline of what could be considered bugs.
>These are the least fun enhancements to work on.

By and large that tends to be the case - it tends to be the borderline enh/bug
ones that QA end up placing on Bugzilla.

The main exceptions are where we have umbrella Enh entries that are there
to help us track Proposals that are in the Wiki (and that is only some not
all).


>I do not want to open the flood gates and encourage feature requests to
>be entered as enhancements in Bugzilla.  That would add over 400 Enh:
>bugs, each of which requires detailed discussion to decide exactly what
>we want to implement before we have a hope of clearing it.

Neither do I want to open such floodgates in Bugzilla, nor would I want the task
of transcribing the hundreds of Feature Requests and Pending Feature Requests
that we currently have on the Wiki into a new database ;-))

Peter.



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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 24 January 2017 at 12:35, Peter Sampson
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Could we not continue to use the single Bugzilla
> but have additional filters for:
> a) show me all bugs,
> b) show me all enhancements,
> c) show me both ?

Of course, I already suggested this as a solution with the existing
software. Just set up your own search result(s) with the advanced
search. The result(s) could be "shared" with other users so everyone
can see the link(s).

And/or post the link on http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Bug_Lists .

Or move the enh's to a new product.


Gale


> These setting to be ANDed with the Search box criterion the user chooses/
>
> Peter.
>
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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Peter Sampson-2
Gale wrote:
> Of course, I already suggested this as a solution with the existing
>software. Just set up your own search result(s) with the advanced
>search.

When I look at the Advanced Searcch page I only see filters for
a) Product
b) Comonete
c) Status
d) Resolution

"Enhancement" lives in the second "Importance" box - I don't see a filter for that.

So I am at a loss as to how to frame say a search for just ehnancements - or say
all P3 enhancements :-//

Peter

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 24 January 2017 at 12:56, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 1/24/2017 12:35 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>> Could we not continue to use the single Bugzilla
>> but have additional filters for:
>> a) show me all bugs,
>> b) show me all enhancements,
>> c) show me both ?
>
> Yes we could.  We already can.
>
> I do not want to open the flood gates and encourage feature requests to
> be entered as enhancements in Bugzilla.  That would add over 400 Enh:
> bugs, each of which requires detailed discussion to decide exactly what
> we want to implement before we have a hope of clearing it.

No-one has ever suggested that. The point to me is that we need
tracking on borderline enh/bug issues (as Peter says), then we need
to track desirable changes that are not simply a change in a wx
translation string.

And we need tracking on improvements that QA may agree on that
have never been requested by users so are not on Wiki Feature
Requests (or are too "under the hood" to be there).

And perhaps tracking on Wiki Proposals - as Vaughan pointed out
those Proposal pages are not tracking pages.

And then I want to track some "user impact bugs" as Steve calls them
- at my discretion as QM if I think this in the wider interest of the
project. If someone does not like that, we have a Team voting mechanism
to stop me doing it.

> Feature requests should be fun, not counted as black marks against us.

Enh's are not black marks, except possibly if we never do anything
about those that have high "user impact".

And anyone can create a Bugzilla filter.  Or create a new product
on Bugzilla.


> The feature-base should be overflowing with good ideas for possible new
> improvements to Audacity.  The best should float to the top.

Then we should have had something better than Wiki Feature Requests
to begin with.


> The enhancements that we currently have in bugzilla are (supposed to be)
> ones that are near the borderline of what could be considered bugs.
> These are the least fun enhancements to work on.

Bugs aren't fun either, so borderline enh/bugs yes probably are
less fun than some new whizzbang feature.

"Fun" enhancements on Bugzilla would be like doing what no-one
wants - choosing more items from Feature Requests to go on
Bugzilla.

In practice, do we not decide what to work on (features and bugs
or enh's) at the start of a release?


Gale

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Stevethefiddle
I like James' idea of Q&A type software for tracking feature requests
- it sounds similar to how Stack Exchange / Stack Overflow work, with
the most popular "questions" (for us this would be "feature requests")
floating to the top.

I've been looking at "project management" software, which is a kind of
extension to the idea of "bug tracker" software in that it allows more
parts of the process to be monitored. Tuleap is one that looks
particularly interesting as it allows multiple custom trackers, and
integrates with Git. There are many others.

I don't know if any of the project management applications include, or
can be integrated with Q&A type software, but that could be the ideal
solution for us.

Steve

On 24 January 2017 at 13:34, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 January 2017 at 12:56, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 1/24/2017 12:35 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>> Could we not continue to use the single Bugzilla
>>> but have additional filters for:
>>> a) show me all bugs,
>>> b) show me all enhancements,
>>> c) show me both ?
>>
>> Yes we could.  We already can.
>>
>> I do not want to open the flood gates and encourage feature requests to
>> be entered as enhancements in Bugzilla.  That would add over 400 Enh:
>> bugs, each of which requires detailed discussion to decide exactly what
>> we want to implement before we have a hope of clearing it.
>
> No-one has ever suggested that. The point to me is that we need
> tracking on borderline enh/bug issues (as Peter says), then we need
> to track desirable changes that are not simply a change in a wx
> translation string.
>
> And we need tracking on improvements that QA may agree on that
> have never been requested by users so are not on Wiki Feature
> Requests (or are too "under the hood" to be there).
>
> And perhaps tracking on Wiki Proposals - as Vaughan pointed out
> those Proposal pages are not tracking pages.
>
> And then I want to track some "user impact bugs" as Steve calls them
> - at my discretion as QM if I think this in the wider interest of the
> project. If someone does not like that, we have a Team voting mechanism
> to stop me doing it.
>
>> Feature requests should be fun, not counted as black marks against us.
>
> Enh's are not black marks, except possibly if we never do anything
> about those that have high "user impact".
>
> And anyone can create a Bugzilla filter.  Or create a new product
> on Bugzilla.
>
>
>> The feature-base should be overflowing with good ideas for possible new
>> improvements to Audacity.  The best should float to the top.
>
> Then we should have had something better than Wiki Feature Requests
> to begin with.
>
>
>> The enhancements that we currently have in bugzilla are (supposed to be)
>> ones that are near the borderline of what could be considered bugs.
>> These are the least fun enhancements to work on.
>
> Bugs aren't fun either, so borderline enh/bugs yes probably are
> less fun than some new whizzbang feature.
>
> "Fun" enhancements on Bugzilla would be like doing what no-one
> wants - choosing more items from Feature Requests to go on
> Bugzilla.
>
> In practice, do we not decide what to work on (features and bugs
> or enh's) at the start of a release?
>
>
> Gale
>
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by James Crook
On 24 January 2017 at 12:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1/24/2017 12:10 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> An advantage of another Bugzilla product for enh's is that we can move
>> existing enh's more easily.
>>
>> Is Q&A software suitable for long responses as in Bug 1331,
> Yes.
>> and can "answers" be trimmed or removed - one of the major failings of Bugzilla?
> Yes.
>> Can the importance of the "question" be rated directly?
> Via up/down voting, Yes.

Not exactly "direct".


> I would suggest that if we use Question2Answer for feature requests we
> make voting open to the world, and use tags for our own tracking of what
> we want to act on.  E.g 'Make an Android version' might get a lot of
> votes, but not be tagged by us for action.

I think feature requests (as on Wiki Feature Requests) and enh's are
not really the same thing. The distinction is that enh's are tracked
(as we do it now).

We don't even count votes for "Make an Android version" on Wiki
Feature Requests. I see no point. We know it is requested often
and it is not something we can do except in vanishingly long term.

If we make Q&A voting "open to the world" then we will have a
competing set of votes with Wiki Feature Requests - two places
to track, unless we move Wiki FR's into Q&A which is a big task.

I am guessing more could be done to make Wiki FR count and
sort votes?

On the whole, right now I think better to keep Q&A private if we
do use that. I am not convinced we need to use it - the only
strong advantage I see so far is its ability to manage comments.

Discussions on mailing lists which we have now are public.
Some of us in the past have expressed a preference for e-mail
for discussions.


Gale


> When we want to see what we want to act on, we look for questions by
> tag.  When we want to see what is popular with users, we look by vote.
>
>
>
>> The current enh http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1580
>> is very like http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Wording but not the same.
>> But I think I'm correct in saying it is actually only text replacement in the
>> code, not a coding change as such.
> It probably is just text replacement.
>
> --James.

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
I think an integrated project management solution is good. All
in one place.

Bugzilla is imperfect even as pure bug tracking software, though
it is possible to use it for feature requests (however defined)
and some projects do use it like that.

Moving to new systems has its own time and learning curve cost
which needs to be factored in. I am not convinced that enh's on
Bugzilla are the crippling issue they are made out to be, which
is not to say we can't make things better/ use better software.


Gale


On 24 January 2017 at 13:53, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I like James' idea of Q&A type software for tracking feature requests
> - it sounds similar to how Stack Exchange / Stack Overflow work, with
> the most popular "questions" (for us this would be "feature requests")
> floating to the top.
>
> I've been looking at "project management" software, which is a kind of
> extension to the idea of "bug tracker" software in that it allows more
> parts of the process to be monitored. Tuleap is one that looks
> particularly interesting as it allows multiple custom trackers, and
> integrates with Git. There are many others.
>
> I don't know if any of the project management applications include, or
> can be integrated with Q&A type software, but that could be the ideal
> solution for us.
>
> Steve
>
> On 24 January 2017 at 13:34, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 24 January 2017 at 12:56, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 1/24/2017 12:35 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>>> Could we not continue to use the single Bugzilla
>>>> but have additional filters for:
>>>> a) show me all bugs,
>>>> b) show me all enhancements,
>>>> c) show me both ?
>>>
>>> Yes we could.  We already can.
>>>
>>> I do not want to open the flood gates and encourage feature requests to
>>> be entered as enhancements in Bugzilla.  That would add over 400 Enh:
>>> bugs, each of which requires detailed discussion to decide exactly what
>>> we want to implement before we have a hope of clearing it.
>>
>> No-one has ever suggested that. The point to me is that we need
>> tracking on borderline enh/bug issues (as Peter says), then we need
>> to track desirable changes that are not simply a change in a wx
>> translation string.
>>
>> And we need tracking on improvements that QA may agree on that
>> have never been requested by users so are not on Wiki Feature
>> Requests (or are too "under the hood" to be there).
>>
>> And perhaps tracking on Wiki Proposals - as Vaughan pointed out
>> those Proposal pages are not tracking pages.
>>
>> And then I want to track some "user impact bugs" as Steve calls them
>> - at my discretion as QM if I think this in the wider interest of the
>> project. If someone does not like that, we have a Team voting mechanism
>> to stop me doing it.
>>
>>> Feature requests should be fun, not counted as black marks against us.
>>
>> Enh's are not black marks, except possibly if we never do anything
>> about those that have high "user impact".
>>
>> And anyone can create a Bugzilla filter.  Or create a new product
>> on Bugzilla.
>>
>>
>>> The feature-base should be overflowing with good ideas for possible new
>>> improvements to Audacity.  The best should float to the top.
>>
>> Then we should have had something better than Wiki Feature Requests
>> to begin with.
>>
>>
>>> The enhancements that we currently have in bugzilla are (supposed to be)
>>> ones that are near the borderline of what could be considered bugs.
>>> These are the least fun enhancements to work on.
>>
>> Bugs aren't fun either, so borderline enh/bugs yes probably are
>> less fun than some new whizzbang feature.
>>
>> "Fun" enhancements on Bugzilla would be like doing what no-one
>> wants - choosing more items from Feature Requests to go on
>> Bugzilla.
>>
>> In practice, do we not decide what to work on (features and bugs
>> or enh's) at the start of a release?
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 24 January 2017 at 13:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 January 2017 at 12:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 1/24/2017 12:10 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>> An advantage of another Bugzilla product for enh's is that we can move
>>> existing enh's more easily.
>>>
>>> Is Q&A software suitable for long responses as in Bug 1331,
>> Yes.
>>> and can "answers" be trimmed or removed - one of the major failings of Bugzilla?
>> Yes.
>>> Can the importance of the "question" be rated directly?
>> Via up/down voting, Yes.
>
> Not exactly "direct".
>
>
>> I would suggest that if we use Question2Answer for feature requests we
>> make voting open to the world, and use tags for our own tracking of what
>> we want to act on.  E.g 'Make an Android version' might get a lot of
>> votes, but not be tagged by us for action.
>
> I think feature requests (as on Wiki Feature Requests) and enh's are
> not really the same thing. The distinction is that enh's are tracked
> (as we do it now).
>
> We don't even count votes for "Make an Android version" on Wiki
> Feature Requests. I see no point. We know it is requested often
> and it is not something we can do except in vanishingly long term.
>
> If we make Q&A voting "open to the world" then we will have a
> competing set of votes with Wiki Feature Requests - two places
> to track, unless we move Wiki FR's into Q&A which is a big task.

If open to the world, I'm sure that the most popular feature requests
would soon be added to the new Q&A system and would soon float to the
top.

Steve

>
> I am guessing more could be done to make Wiki FR count and
> sort votes?
>
> On the whole, right now I think better to keep Q&A private if we
> do use that. I am not convinced we need to use it - the only
> strong advantage I see so far is its ability to manage comments.
>
> Discussions on mailing lists which we have now are public.
> Some of us in the past have expressed a preference for e-mail
> for discussions.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>> When we want to see what we want to act on, we look for questions by
>> tag.  When we want to see what is popular with users, we look by vote.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The current enh http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1580
>>> is very like http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Wording but not the same.
>>> But I think I'm correct in saying it is actually only text replacement in the
>>> code, not a coding change as such.
>> It probably is just text replacement.
>>
>> --James.
>
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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
Administrator
On 24 January 2017 at 14:08, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 January 2017 at 13:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 24 January 2017 at 12:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2017 12:10 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>> An advantage of another Bugzilla product for enh's is that we can move
>>>> existing enh's more easily.
>>>>
>>>> Is Q&A software suitable for long responses as in Bug 1331,
>>> Yes.
>>>> and can "answers" be trimmed or removed - one of the major failings of Bugzilla?
>>> Yes.
>>>> Can the importance of the "question" be rated directly?
>>> Via up/down voting, Yes.
>>
>> Not exactly "direct".
>>
>>
>>> I would suggest that if we use Question2Answer for feature requests we
>>> make voting open to the world, and use tags for our own tracking of what
>>> we want to act on.  E.g 'Make an Android version' might get a lot of
>>> votes, but not be tagged by us for action.
>>
>> I think feature requests (as on Wiki Feature Requests) and enh's are
>> not really the same thing. The distinction is that enh's are tracked
>> (as we do it now).
>>
>> We don't even count votes for "Make an Android version" on Wiki
>> Feature Requests. I see no point. We know it is requested often
>> and it is not something we can do except in vanishingly long term.
>>
>> If we make Q&A voting "open to the world" then we will have a
>> competing set of votes with Wiki Feature Requests - two places
>> to track, unless we move Wiki FR's into Q&A which is a big task.
>
> If open to the world, I'm sure that the most popular feature requests
> would soon be added to the new Q&A system and would soon float to the
> top.

Sure they would if the site was well publicised. We'd also get
requests for things we can't or won't do and requests for things
we already do which would all have to be managed. I expect
"record YouTube because Windows does not offer stereo mix"
would quickly float to the top.

And we still have to manage (valid) requests that come in by
other methods (Forum, feedback@).  Would we put those on
the new system, and how do we get Wiki FR's onto the new
system?

If we had sufficiently customisable integrated project management
software, yes it might be worth going for it. But past experience
has shown public tracking to be less than useful.


Gale

> Steve
>
>>
>> I am guessing more could be done to make Wiki FR count and
>> sort votes?
>>
>> On the whole, right now I think better to keep Q&A private if we
>> do use that. I am not convinced we need to use it - the only
>> strong advantage I see so far is its ability to manage comments.
>>
>> Discussions on mailing lists which we have now are public.
>> Some of us in the past have expressed a preference for e-mail
>> for discussions.
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> When we want to see what we want to act on, we look for questions by
>>> tag.  When we want to see what is popular with users, we look by vote.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The current enh http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1580
>>>> is very like http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Wording but not the same.
>>>> But I think I'm correct in saying it is actually only text replacement in the
>>>> code, not a coding change as such.
>>> It probably is just text replacement.
>>>
>>> --James.
>>
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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
Steve wrote:
>If open to the world, I'm sure that the most popular feature requests
>would soon be added to the new Q&A system and would soon float to the
>top.

Surely they've already floated to the top by virtue of the number of votes they
have garnered over the years earning them their position in the "Highest
Rated" section on the FR requests page in the Wiki  ;-))

Even under our present imperfect system we have a pretty good idea of what
the most popular are.  And as QA testers we have a pretty good idea of what is
useful and what is not.

Peter.

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 24 January 2017 at 13:22, Peter Sampson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gale wrote:
>> Of course, I already suggested this as a solution with the existing
>>software. Just set up your own search result(s) with the advanced
>>search.
>
> When I look at the Advanced Searcch page I only see filters for
> a) Product
> b) Comonete
> c) Status
> d) Resolution
>
> "Enhancement" lives in the second "Importance" box - I don't see a filter
> for that.

In the Advanced search, expand "Detailed Bug Information".

> So I am at a loss as to how to frame say a search for just ehnancements - or
> say
> all P3 enhancements :-//

A) Open Enh's only: (93)
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?action=wrap&bug_severity=Enhancement&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bugidtype=include

B) Open bugs excluding enh's (548)
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?bug_severity=Repeatable&bug_severity=MoonPhase&bug_severity=HeisenBug&bug_severity=CometReturns&bug_severity=Summary&bug_severity=Review&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&f1=flagtypes.name&limit=0&list_id=8575&o1=equals&order=priority%2Cchangeddate%20DESC%2Cassigned_to%2Cbug_id&query_format=advanced

C) All open bugs (641)
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?action=wrap&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bugidtype=include&limit=0&list_id=8577&order=priority%2Cchangeddate%20DESC%2Cassigned_to%2Cbug_id&query_format=advanced

You can get A) and C) and "all open P3 enh's" by just clicking the Audacity logo
top left of Bugzilla.


Gale

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Gale
On 24 January 2017 at 14:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 January 2017 at 14:08, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 24 January 2017 at 13:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 24 January 2017 at 12:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 1/24/2017 12:10 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>> An advantage of another Bugzilla product for enh's is that we can move
>>>>> existing enh's more easily.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is Q&A software suitable for long responses as in Bug 1331,
>>>> Yes.
>>>>> and can "answers" be trimmed or removed - one of the major failings of Bugzilla?
>>>> Yes.
>>>>> Can the importance of the "question" be rated directly?
>>>> Via up/down voting, Yes.
>>>
>>> Not exactly "direct".
>>>
>>>
>>>> I would suggest that if we use Question2Answer for feature requests we
>>>> make voting open to the world, and use tags for our own tracking of what
>>>> we want to act on.  E.g 'Make an Android version' might get a lot of
>>>> votes, but not be tagged by us for action.
>>>
>>> I think feature requests (as on Wiki Feature Requests) and enh's are
>>> not really the same thing. The distinction is that enh's are tracked
>>> (as we do it now).
>>>
>>> We don't even count votes for "Make an Android version" on Wiki
>>> Feature Requests. I see no point. We know it is requested often
>>> and it is not something we can do except in vanishingly long term.
>>>
>>> If we make Q&A voting "open to the world" then we will have a
>>> competing set of votes with Wiki Feature Requests - two places
>>> to track, unless we move Wiki FR's into Q&A which is a big task.
>>
>> If open to the world, I'm sure that the most popular feature requests
>> would soon be added to the new Q&A system and would soon float to the
>> top.
>
> Sure they would if the site was well publicised. We'd also get
> requests for things we can't or won't do and requests for things
> we already do which would all have to be managed. I expect
> "record YouTube because Windows does not offer stereo mix"
> would quickly float to the top.

That's OK. If it's one of the top requests, then it should float to the top.
Hopefully there will be useful replies that also float to the top, as
happens on Stack Overflow.

>
> And we still have to manage (valid) requests that come in by
> other methods (Forum, feedback@).

The new system could supersede the old systems.

>  Would we put those on
> the new system, and how do we get Wiki FR's onto the new
> system?

"We" should not need to, though any of us could add to the new system
if we want to and have time to do so. My understanding of the proposed
new system is that if a feature request is popular in 2017, then it
will soon be added by someone (could be one of us, or could be a user)
and would quickly float to the top.

On the other hand, if a feature request on the wiki was popular 5 or
more years ago but is no longer popular, then the new system would
rightly show it as less popular today.

>
> If we had sufficiently customisable integrated project management
> software, yes it might be worth going for it. But past experience
> has shown public tracking to be less than useful.

As far as I'm aware we have never tried this type of "self regulating"
software solution.

Steve

>
>
> Gale
>
>> Steve
>>
>>>
>>> I am guessing more could be done to make Wiki FR count and
>>> sort votes?
>>>
>>> On the whole, right now I think better to keep Q&A private if we
>>> do use that. I am not convinced we need to use it - the only
>>> strong advantage I see so far is its ability to manage comments.
>>>
>>> Discussions on mailing lists which we have now are public.
>>> Some of us in the past have expressed a preference for e-mail
>>> for discussions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>> When we want to see what we want to act on, we look for questions by
>>>> tag.  When we want to see what is popular with users, we look by vote.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The current enh http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1580
>>>>> is very like http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Wording but not the same.
>>>>> But I think I'm correct in saying it is actually only text replacement in the
>>>>> code, not a coding change as such.
>>>> It probably is just text replacement.
>>>>
>>>> --James.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>
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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Vaughan Johnson-4
In reply to this post by Gale
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 5:34 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 24 January 2017 at 12:56, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 1/24/2017 12:35 PM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>> [...]
>
> In practice, do we not decide what to work on (features and bugs
> or enh's) at the start of a release?


Terminology: Traditionally, in every software organization i've ever
been in, including Audacity until recently, "release" is the process
of releasing the software.  I oppose blurring it to mean what I think
you intend, i.e., immediately after a release. The next "release"
doesn't start immediately after the current one -- it starts after
development and a decision to make a release.  In fact, our Release
Process doc said Tech Leaders decide when to make a release, then
designate a Release Manager at that time, and then the Release Process
starts.  "Development" != "Release";

But the answer to your question, Gale, is that it has never been the
case, afaik. Yes, some things are planned from the outset of the new
dev cycle (or before, but delayed until post-release).  But there have
always been decisions to add new things during the development process
for each release, that weren't planned at the time post-release, when
new development starts.

- Vaughan

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Peter Sampson-2
In reply to this post by Gale
.
> So I am at a loss as to how to frame say a search for just ehnancements - or
> say
> all P3 enhancements :-//

A) Open Enh's only: (93)
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?action=wrap&bug_severity=Enhancement&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bugidtype=include

B) Open bugs excluding enh's (548)
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?bug_severity=Repeatable&bug_severity=MoonPhase&bug_severity=HeisenBug&bug_severity=CometReturns&bug_severity=Summary&bug_severity=Review&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&f1=flagtypes.name&limit=0&list_id=8575&o1=equals&order=priority%2Cchangeddate%20DESC%2Cassigned_to%2Cbug_id&query_format=advanced

C) All open bugs (641)
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/buglist.cgi?action=wrap&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bugidtype=include&limit=0&list_id=8577&order=priority%2Cchangeddate%20DESC%2Cassigned_to%2Cbug_id&query_format=advanced

You can get A) and C) and "all open P3 enh's" by just clicking the Audacity logo
top left of Bugzilla.

=========================================================

Ahhhhh that's useful, thanks Gale.  But how on earth are you supposed to "discover"
the easter-egg of clicking on the Audacity logo ?!?

The reports generated from those three links would be more useful if they included a
colum for priority - and then one could sort on them.

And this is me writing down those three search links in a handy Word document ...

Thanks,
Peter.

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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Stevethefiddle
On 24 January 2017 at 16:55, Peter Sampson
<[hidden email]> wrote:
That's handy. Who'd have thunk it.

Steve

>
> =========================================================
>
> Ahhhhh that's useful, thanks Gale.  But how on earth are you supposed to
> "discover"
> the easter-egg of clicking on the Audacity logo ?!?
>
> The reports generated from those three links would be more useful if they
> included a
> colum for priority - and then one could sort on them.
>
> And this is me writing down those three search links in a handy Word
> document ...
>
> Thanks,
> Peter.
>
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Re: Where do we track enh's WAS Where we store exported "stuff"

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
On 24 January 2017 at 15:39, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 January 2017 at 14:28, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 24 January 2017 at 14:08, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 24 January 2017 at 13:56, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On 24 January 2017 at 12:40, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/24/2017 12:10 PM, Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>> An advantage of another Bugzilla product for enh's is that we can move
>>>>>> existing enh's more easily.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is Q&A software suitable for long responses as in Bug 1331,
>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>> and can "answers" be trimmed or removed - one of the major failings of Bugzilla?
>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>> Can the importance of the "question" be rated directly?
>>>>> Via up/down voting, Yes.
>>>>
>>>> Not exactly "direct".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I would suggest that if we use Question2Answer for feature requests we
>>>>> make voting open to the world, and use tags for our own tracking of what
>>>>> we want to act on.  E.g 'Make an Android version' might get a lot of
>>>>> votes, but not be tagged by us for action.
>>>>
>>>> I think feature requests (as on Wiki Feature Requests) and enh's are
>>>> not really the same thing. The distinction is that enh's are tracked
>>>> (as we do it now).
>>>>
>>>> We don't even count votes for "Make an Android version" on Wiki
>>>> Feature Requests. I see no point. We know it is requested often
>>>> and it is not something we can do except in vanishingly long term.
>>>>
>>>> If we make Q&A voting "open to the world" then we will have a
>>>> competing set of votes with Wiki Feature Requests - two places
>>>> to track, unless we move Wiki FR's into Q&A which is a big task.
>>>
>>> If open to the world, I'm sure that the most popular feature requests
>>> would soon be added to the new Q&A system and would soon float to the
>>> top.
>>
>> Sure they would if the site was well publicised. We'd also get
>> requests for things we can't or won't do and requests for things
>> we already do which would all have to be managed. I expect
>> "record YouTube because Windows does not offer stereo mix"
>> would quickly float to the top.
>
> That's OK. If it's one of the top requests, then it should float to the top.
> Hopefully there will be useful replies that also float to the top, as
> happens on Stack Overflow.

Still, isn't that useless request "cruft" that gets in the way?


>> And we still have to manage (valid) requests that come in by
>> other methods (Forum, feedback@).
>
> The new system could supersede the old systems.

So in that case we would just redirect those making suggestions via
the current channels to the online Q&A system. Those that did not
bother to go there would not have their "vote" or suggestion counted,
unless one of us thought it was worth propagating.

And I suppose requests mentioned in Forum help posts would
tend to fall through the cracks more than now.


>>  Would we put those on
>> the new system, and how do we get Wiki FR's onto the new
>> system?
>
> "We" should not need to, though any of us could add to the new system
> if we want to and have time to do so.

Certainly that side of it would save our time. I'm less sure about
what would get missed, and managing / categorizing what gets
posted. I suppose we would use "tags" to mark useful material?


> My understanding of the proposed new system is that if a feature
> request is popular in 2017, then it will soon be added by someone
> (could be one of us, or could be a user) and would quickly float to
> the top.
>
> On the other hand, if a feature request on the wiki was popular 5 or
> more years ago but is no longer popular, then the new system would
> rightly show it as less popular today.

I think that assumption depends how many votes/posts we got
on the new system.

I assume if user access only required registration, we would get at
least as much input as gets on to Wiki, if not more.

But if numbers voting for any one request are infrequent, that suggests
to me we should include past Wiki votes for that request, that built
up over time.

I suppose as long as we "bear in mind" requests on Wiki it is reasonable -
there are lots of intelligent ideas there even when features already
implemented are removed. IMO, ideas should not necessarily be
discarded because they were expressed a few years ago.


>> If we had sufficiently customisable integrated project management
>> software, yes it might be worth going for it. But past experience
>> has shown public tracking to be less than useful.
>
> As far as I'm aware we have never tried this type of "self regulating"
> software solution.

What I had in mind was the ill fated bug tracker on SourceForge
which became mostly a user helpline which we then had to abandon.

There may have been other SF trackers, but it was a little before my
time.



Gale


>>>> On the whole, right now I think better to keep Q&A private if we
>>>> do use that. I am not convinced we need to use it - the only
>>>> strong advantage I see so far is its ability to manage comments.
>>>>
>>>> Discussions on mailing lists which we have now are public.
>>>> Some of us in the past have expressed a preference for e-mail
>>>> for discussions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> When we want to see what we want to act on, we look for questions by
>>>>> tag.  When we want to see what is popular with users, we look by vote.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The current enh http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1580
>>>>>> is very like http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Wording but not the same.
>>>>>> But I think I'm correct in saying it is actually only text replacement in the
>>>>>> code, not a coding change as such.
>>>>> It probably is just text replacement.
>>>>>
>>>>> --James.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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