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Re: Zoom menu

Peter Sampson-2
Now that Gale has clearly documented these four new commands in the Manual
(and many thanks for adding to the hazy information I put there - much apperciated)
http://alphamanual.audacityteam.org/man/View_Menu:_Zoom#1pxto1second
the light has gone on and I can now clearly see that these or not really zoom commands
at all.

Rather their primary purpose is to change the behavior of the movement of the editing
cursor -. the amount it moves.

But it definitely looks to me that hese do NOT really belong in the View>Zoom menu
inspite of the fact that as well as changing the cursor movement behavior they also
make a zoom at the same time.

Where they would belong is a mystery to me ...

Peter


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Re: Zoom menu

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle
Yes microseconds is no use for exporting less than a sample of audio,
but you could measure less than a sample's worth of microseconds
and you could read the length of a selection in microseconds without
calculating, whatever the sample rate is.


Gale

On 15 April 2017 at 19:07, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15 April 2017 at 18:41, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 15 April 2017 at 11:45, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Thanks for the explanation Robert.
>>>
>>> So really this feature is about "navigation", in which case I'm -1 for
>>> including this feature in its current form. I would not have guessed
>>> that was the purpose, and would have completely missed the intended
>>> benefits.
>>>
>>> Perhaps a "Navigation Toolbar" could work better?
>>>
>>> I also notice another peculiarity about cursor key navigation: At high
>>> zoom levels, what is the purpose of sub-pixel navigation steps? For
>>> PCM audio, time periods shorter than a sample period are meaningless.
>>
>> Unless we support microseconds, as 1.2 did. Of course, I know
>> you are opposed to that.
>
> Even if we support nanoseconds and picoseconds, time periods less than
> one sample period are meaningless for PCM audio. A sample is either
> 'in' the selection or 'not in' the selection. It's atomic, there is no
> 'half in'.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> On 14 April 2017 at 21:58, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Robert.  I broadly agree with you, extending too to
>>>> decoupling step size and zoom. I was thinking this myself as
>>>> the logical outcome.
>>>>
>>>> This reiterates that these pixel commands are not primarily
>>>> about zooming - they set the step size.
>>>>
>>>> And so if we have useful zoom presets for sighted users that
>>>> have Toolbar button access, we don't need step size commands
>>>> in the View menu.
>>>>
>>>> And I don't care if those sighted user zoom presets are one
>>>> submenu deep in the View Menu, because mouse users can use
>>>> the buttons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 14 April 2017 at 21:00, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Just to recapitulate why those strange zoom levels:
>>>>>
>>>>> The step size for navigating with the arrow keys is correlated to the
>>>>> zoom level.
>>>>> The latter can be doubled or halved (zoom out/in) and this gives very
>>>>> odd time intervals because we are exactly following a binary pattern
>>>>> of 2^x samples; x being the level.
>>>>> 1 2 4 8 16 32 ... 256 512 samples (= zoom normal = level 9) 1024 and so on.
>>>>> However, this is only for a project rate of 44100 Hz true. Change this
>>>>> setting and you have different step sizes, (in samples)regardless of
>>>>> the rate of the track(s).
>>>>> The step size as fractals of a second is approximately the same but
>>>>> very odd as mentioned.
>>>>> I don't know if a project rate change has also an impact on how "fast"
>>>>> you can zoom--test it.
>>>>> The DPI issue just complicates things further.
>>>>>
>>>>> David's intention is to give even step sizes in order to shift clips
>>>>> or move the cursor in a more natural way.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I don't think that we have reached the final solution yet.
>>>>> Here is what I would do:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Creating a numeric input for the Step Size in seconds. The best
>>>>> would be a editable combo box, exactly like the one for the project
>>>>> rate. The field shows the current value and arrowing down lists
>>>>> predefined values, namely the four that are now in the 'Zoom One Pixel
>>>>> to' menu.
>>>>> It would probably be best to have this in a dialog.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. I would decouple zoom factor and step size, at least present a
>>>>> preference option to do so. How often do I accidentally "destroy" the
>>>>> carefully set step size by involuntary zooming.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. replace the four pixel entries with something that is meaningful
>>>>> and useful to sighted users.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> 2017-04-14 19:04 GMT+02:00, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>> I'v ejust bee testing these zoom levels on my workhorse Tosh Satellite
>>>>>> laptop
>>>>>> which has a 1366x768 display.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the Audacity window full screen
>>>>>> I pixel to:
>>>>>> 1second => 20 minutes on screen
>>>>>> 1/10 second => 2 minutes
>>>>>> 1/100 second => 12 seconds
>>>>>> millisecond = 1.2 seconds
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the Audacity window default size
>>>>>> I pixel to:
>>>>>> 1second => 12:45 on screen
>>>>>> 1/10 second => 1:15 minutes
>>>>>> 1/100 second => 7.5 seconds
>>>>>> millisecond = 0.75 seconds
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I don't find any of these zoom levels particuarly useful and I
>>>>>> can't see myself
>>>>>> ever using them.  I tend to record with 3-6 minutes on-screen (a
>>>>>> songsworth) and I
>>>>>> edit at normal-zoomed-out-once(or twice) for location  (which give me 14,
>>>>>> 28 and 56
>>>>>> on-screen seconds) - and zoom in close for detailed edits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also agree with Steve when he says:
>>>>>>>It seems quite strange to me to have zoom levels that are dependent on the
>>>>>> display dpi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we have zoom levels here that depend on the screen - most odd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:25 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14 April 2017 at 14:47, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Steve the Fiddle <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> How about:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> View menu:
>>>>>>> >> * Zoom
>>>>>>> >> ** Zoom In
>>>>>>> >> ** Zoom Normal
>>>>>>> >> ** Zoom Out
>>>>>>> >> ** Zoom to Selection
>>>>>>> >> ** spacer
>>>>>>> >> ** 1px to 1 second
>>>>>>> >> ** 1px to 10th second
>>>>>>> >> ** 1px to 100th second
>>>>>>> >> ** 1px to 1 millisecond
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > That was more or less my original suggestion - but with the addition of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > spacer.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > But I find these new commands pretty obscure and opaque as to their
>>>>>>> > behaviour and
>>>>>>> > the zoom level that will ensue.  Normally one would would think of
>>>>>>> > proportional scaling,
>>>>>>> > like a map's scale say.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The four pre-existing zoom commands, the ones that correspond to the
>>>>>>> > zoom
>>>>>>> > buttons,
>>>>>>> > are in contrast, pretty clear to the user in what the result will be
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> > using them - not
>>>>>>> > really so with these new commands.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I ran these past my "mystery shopper" and asked her if she had any idea
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> > zoom
>>>>>>> > level she might get when using these commands - she said:
>>>>>>> > "No idea at all. Who thinks in pixels?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having recently changed from a 'normal' resolution laptop display to a
>>>>>>> fairly high dpi laptop display, I was surprised by how far 'zoomed
>>>>>>> out' these new commands are. It seems quite strange to me to have zoom
>>>>>>> levels that are dependent on the display dpi.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Peter
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Steve
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> On 14 April 2017 at 11:52, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > We could add an optional momentary sound (high or low) on the toggle
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> >> > that VI users get confirmation of whether they are on the high or
>>>>>>> >> > low
>>>>>>> >> > zoom setting.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > --James.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > On 4/14/2017 11:44 AM, James Crook wrote:
>>>>>>> >> >> As I have said before, Gale would like everything at the top level.
>>>>>>> >> >> David would like everything relevant to David at the top level.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> DA will remove these new zoom commands.  They are not needed in a
>>>>>>> menu.
>>>>>>> >> >> DA may, if I get round to it, add back 'Zoom Toggle'.  Zoom Toggle
>>>>>>> >> >> (which has an icon for it in the ImageCache) switches back and
>>>>>>> >> >> forth
>>>>>>> >> >> between your two most used zoom levels.   This would live under
>>>>>>> >> >> zoom.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> I am going to remove save and restore cursor position menu items in
>>>>>>> >> >> DA.  They are not useful enough.
>>>>>>> >> >> I am going to remove the 'move selection' option in Align in DA.
>>>>>>> >> >> Instead in DA I will just do what I think right with the selection,
>>>>>>> >> >> possibly clearing the selection where there is no obvious best
>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> I might float the idea of a keystroke combination to bring up a
>>>>>>> 4Blind
>>>>>>> >> >> pop-up menu.  We can then put all the new menu-junk there. But I
>>>>>>> >> >> probably won't float that suggestion until DA 2.2.0x is released.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> --James.
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> On 4/14/2017 9:08 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>>>>>>> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Gale Andrews <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>> >> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> I think the first order placement is necessary for a repetitive
>>>>>>> >> >>>> action
>>>>>>> >> >>>> that you want to be fast, rather than having to move both right
>>>>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>>>>> >> >>>> then down a list of eight items.
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> In which case one would also argue for the four pe-existing zoom
>>>>>>> >> >>> commands:
>>>>>>> >> >>> In, Normal, Out, Selection
>>>>>>> >> >>> To be at first order placement.
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> I would argue that those pre-existing four are far more important
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> >> >>> these four
>>>>>>> >> >>> new pixel-to-fraction-second - the effect of those is certainly
>>>>>>> >> >>> simpler to
>>>>>>> >> >>> comprehend.
>>>>>>> >> >>> And I'm betting that once the new commands are released most users
>>>>>>> >> >>> will use
>>>>>>> >> >>> the
>>>>>>> >> >>> pre-existing set a lot more than the new set.
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> So I continue therefore to strongly argue for the removal of the
>>>>>>> >> >>> second
>>>>>>> >> >>> level menu
>>>>>>> >> >>> "View>Zoom One Pixel to" - and four the four new commands to be
>>>>>>> >> >>> placedin
>>>>>>> >> >>> the
>>>>>>> >> >>> "View>Zoom" submenu.
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> And I would still prefer to see them in a separate  sub-menu
>>>>>>> >> >>> "View>Zoom>One
>>>>>>> >> >>> Pixel to"
>>>>>>> >> >>> in order to avoid over-lengthening the View>Zoom menu. Especially
>>>>>>> >> >>> bearing
>>>>>>> >> >>> in mind
>>>>>>> >> >>> that we may well want to add more commands to that menu if we end
>>>>>>> >> >>> up
>>>>>>> >> >>> implementing
>>>>>>> >> >>> the extra zoom buttons called for in the Zoom Toolbar proposal for
>>>>>>> >> >>> "Zoom
>>>>>>> >> >>> Maximum"
>>>>>>> >> >>> and "Zoom Preset":
>>>>>>> >> >>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> Folk that use them a lot and want fast action will normally resort
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> >> >>> setting shortcuts
>>>>>>> >> >>> for them anyway - so there is no real need.
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> Peter.
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> David agreed with my point and
>>>>>>> >> >>>> until now, no-one disagreed. There is also the question of making
>>>>>>> >> >>>> a good, non-repetitive wording if the pixel zoom commands were
>>>>>>> >> >>>> in zoom.
>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> And please, no two-submenu depth items in an already short menu.
>>>>>>> >> >>>> That would be even worse - as David said that is against
>>>>>>> >> >>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>> >> >>>> guidelines.
>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> There is always a downside to the apparent neatness/orderliness
>>>>>>> >> >>>> of short menus when you actually want to use the menu commands.
>>>>>>> >> >>>> I would expect we could be fine tuning the menus again when more
>>>>>>> >> >>>> users get to see them and use them.
>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> Gale
>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> On 13 April 2017 at 18:45, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>> >> >>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> Can I ask just why is Davi's new set of zoom to fractions of
>>>>>>> seconds
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> in the top level of the View Menu as "Zoom One Pixel to" with
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> its
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> four sub-commands - rather living in View > Zoom as four new
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> subcommands there?
>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> Or even View > Zoom >One Pixel to > ...
>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> James worked hard to shorten the menus and now already we appear
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> to be unnecessarily lengthening them again.
>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> >> >>>> ------------------
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> >> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> >> >>>> ------------------
>>>>>>> >> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> >> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> >>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> >> >>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> >>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> >> >>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>> >> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>>> >> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>>>>>>> >> > Audacity-quality mailing list
>>>>>>> >> > [hidden email]
>>>>>>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------------
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>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>> ------------------
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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Re: Zoom menu

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by James Crook
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:44 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
As I have said before, Gale would like everything at the top level.
David would like everything relevant to David at the top level.

DA will remove these new zoom commands.  They are not needed in a menu.
DA may, if I get round to it, add back 'Zoom Toggle'.  Zoom Toggle (which has an icon for it in the ImageCache) switches back and forth between your two most used zoom levels.   This would live under zoom.

I am going to remove save and restore cursor position menu items in DA.  They are not useful enough.
I am going to remove the 'move selection' option in Align in DA.  Instead in DA I will just do what I think right with the selection, possibly clearing the selection where there is no obvious best choice.


I might float the idea of a keystroke combination to bring up a 4Blind pop-up menu.  We can then put all the new menu-junk there.

"all the new menu-junk"
I found your use of this phrase unhelpful and very discouraging,
David.

  But I probably won't float that suggestion until DA 2.2.0x is released.
 


--James.





On 4/14/2017 9:08 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Gale Andrews [hidden email] wrote:

I think the first order placement is necessary for a repetitive action
that you want to be fast, rather than having to move both right and
then down a list of eight items.
In which case one would also argue for the four pe-existing zoom commands:
In, Normal, Out, Selection
To be at first order placement.

I would argue that those pre-existing four are far more important that
these four
new pixel-to-fraction-second - the effect of those is certainly simpler to
comprehend.
And I'm betting that once the new commands are released most users will use
the
pre-existing set a lot more than the new set.

So I continue therefore to strongly argue for the removal of the second
level menu
"View>Zoom One Pixel to" - and four the four new commands to be placedin
the
"View>Zoom" submenu.

And I would still prefer to see them in a separate  sub-menu "View>Zoom>One
Pixel to"
in order to avoid over-lengthening the View>Zoom menu.  Especially bearing
in mind
that we may well want to add more commands to that menu if we end up
implementing
the extra zoom buttons called for in the Zoom Toolbar proposal for "Zoom
Maximum"
and "Zoom Preset":
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar

Folk that use them a lot and want fast action will normally resort to
setting shortcuts
for them anyway - so there is no real need.

Peter.


David agreed with my point and
until now, no-one disagreed. There is also the question of making
a good, non-repetitive wording if the pixel zoom commands were
in zoom.

And please, no two-submenu depth items in an already short menu.
That would be even worse - as David said that is against Microsoft
guidelines.

There is always a downside to the apparent neatness/orderliness
of short menus when you actually want to use the menu commands.
I would expect we could be fine tuning the menus again when more
users get to see them and use them.


Gale


On 13 April 2017 at 18:45, Peter Sampson [hidden email]
wrote:
Can I ask just why is Davi's new set of zoom to fractions of seconds
in the top level of the View Menu as "Zoom One Pixel to" with its
four sub-commands - rather living in View > Zoom as four new
subcommands there?

Or even View > Zoom >One Pixel to > ...

James worked hard to shorten the menus and now already we appear
to be unnecessarily lengthening them again.

Peter.

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Re: Zoom menu

James Crook
On 4/18/2017 4:43 PM, David Bailes wrote:
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:44 AM, James Crook [hidden email] wrote:

As I have said before, Gale would like everything at the top level.
David would like everything relevant to David at the top level.

DA will remove these new zoom commands.  They are not needed in a menu.
DA may, if I get round to it, add back 'Zoom Toggle'.  Zoom Toggle (which
has an icon for it in the ImageCache) switches back and forth between your
two most used zoom levels.   This would live under zoom.

I am going to remove save and restore cursor position menu items in DA.
They are not useful enough.
I am going to remove the 'move selection' option in Align in DA.  Instead
in DA I will just do what I think right with the selection, possibly
clearing the selection where there is no obvious best choice.


I might float the idea of a keystroke combination to bring up a 4Blind
pop-up menu.  We can then put all the new menu-junk there.

"all the new menu-junk"
I found your use of this phrase unhelpful and very discouraging,
David.

Apologies for the tone.  I was not in a good mood at the time.  For users with excellent vision who use the mouse a lot more, many of the commands you have added 'get in the way'.  Particularly new users may be overwhelmed when exploring the menus to see what kinds of things Audacity can do.  I can totally see the additional menu items can be good - even essential - for effective use by VI users.  I feel we need to find a solution that works well for people with normal vision as well as for VI users.  Currently we are not there.



  But I probably won't float that suggestion until DA 2.2.0x is released.

      


--James.





On 4/14/2017 9:08 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Gale Andrews [hidden email] [hidden email] wrote:


I think the first order placement is necessary for a repetitive action
that you want to be fast, rather than having to move both right and
then down a list of eight items.

In which case one would also argue for the four pe-existing zoom commands:
In, Normal, Out, Selection
To be at first order placement.

I would argue that those pre-existing four are far more important that
these four
new pixel-to-fraction-second - the effect of those is certainly simpler to
comprehend.
And I'm betting that once the new commands are released most users will use
the
pre-existing set a lot more than the new set.

So I continue therefore to strongly argue for the removal of the second
level menu
"View>Zoom One Pixel to" - and four the four new commands to be placedin
the
"View>Zoom" submenu.

And I would still prefer to see them in a separate  sub-menu "View>Zoom>One
Pixel to"
in order to avoid over-lengthening the View>Zoom menu.  Especially bearing
in mind
that we may well want to add more commands to that menu if we end up
implementing
the extra zoom buttons called for in the Zoom Toolbar proposal for "Zoom
Maximum"
and "Zoom Preset":http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar

Folk that use them a lot and want fast action will normally resort to
setting shortcuts
for them anyway - so there is no real need.

Peter.



David agreed with my point and
until now, no-one disagreed. There is also the question of making
a good, non-repetitive wording if the pixel zoom commands were
in zoom.

And please, no two-submenu depth items in an already short menu.
That would be even worse - as David said that is against Microsoft
guidelines.

There is always a downside to the apparent neatness/orderliness
of short menus when you actually want to use the menu commands.
I would expect we could be fine tuning the menus again when more
users get to see them and use them.


Gale


On 13 April 2017 at 18:45, Peter Sampson [hidden email] [hidden email]
wrote:

Can I ask just why is Davi's new set of zoom to fractions of seconds
in the top level of the View Menu as "Zoom One Pixel to" with its
four sub-commands - rather living in View > Zoom as four new
subcommands there?

Or even View > Zoom >One Pixel to > ...

James worked hard to shorten the menus and now already we appear
to be unnecessarily lengthening them again.

Peter.

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Re: Zoom menu

Gale
Administrator
Even though no-one will agree, for my money the new Select
menu looks intimidating to mouse users because too much of
importance has been removed from the top menu.

User sees select "All" and "None" at top level (the latter probably
should be in a submenu) then find very long submenus with
a mix of lesser and more important commands.

I would have in top level

All
Left at Playback Position
Right at Playback Position
Track Start to Cursor
Cursor to Track End
Zero Crossings

then put the "Save" Selection/Restore Selection/Save Cursor/
Cursor to Stored Cursor Position in their own submenu. These
are important commands to sighted users too, but their current
presentation totally confuses me.

Then we don't need a Region submenu at all (Zero Crossings
is not explicitly about regions).


Gale


On 18 April 2017 at 17:39, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/18/2017 4:43 PM, David Bailes wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:44 AM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As I have said before, Gale would like everything at the top level.
> David would like everything relevant to David at the top level.
>
> DA will remove these new zoom commands.  They are not needed in a menu.
> DA may, if I get round to it, add back 'Zoom Toggle'.  Zoom Toggle (which
> has an icon for it in the ImageCache) switches back and forth between your
> two most used zoom levels.   This would live under zoom.
>
> I am going to remove save and restore cursor position menu items in DA.
> They are not useful enough.
> I am going to remove the 'move selection' option in Align in DA.  Instead
> in DA I will just do what I think right with the selection, possibly
> clearing the selection where there is no obvious best choice.
>
>
> I might float the idea of a keystroke combination to bring up a 4Blind
> pop-up menu.  We can then put all the new menu-junk there.
>
> "all the new menu-junk"
> I found your use of this phrase unhelpful and very discouraging,
> David.
>
>
> Apologies for the tone.  I was not in a good mood at the time.  For users
> with excellent vision who use the mouse a lot more, many of the commands you
> have added 'get in the way'.  Particularly new users may be overwhelmed when
> exploring the menus to see what kinds of things Audacity can do.  I can
> totally see the additional menu items can be good - even essential - for
> effective use by VI users.  I feel we need to find a solution that works
> well for people with normal vision as well as for VI users.  Currently we
> are not there.
>
>
>
>   But I probably won't float that suggestion until DA 2.2.0x is released.
>
>
> --James.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4/14/2017 9:08 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I think the first order placement is necessary for a repetitive action
> that you want to be fast, rather than having to move both right and
> then down a list of eight items.
>
> In which case one would also argue for the four pe-existing zoom commands:
> In, Normal, Out, Selection
> To be at first order placement.
>
> I would argue that those pre-existing four are far more important that
> these four
> new pixel-to-fraction-second - the effect of those is certainly simpler to
> comprehend.
> And I'm betting that once the new commands are released most users will use
> the
> pre-existing set a lot more than the new set.
>
> So I continue therefore to strongly argue for the removal of the second
> level menu
> "View>Zoom One Pixel to" - and four the four new commands to be placedin
> the
> "View>Zoom" submenu.
>
> And I would still prefer to see them in a separate  sub-menu "View>Zoom>One
> Pixel to"
> in order to avoid over-lengthening the View>Zoom menu.  Especially bearing
> in mind
> that we may well want to add more commands to that menu if we end up
> implementing
> the extra zoom buttons called for in the Zoom Toolbar proposal for "Zoom
> Maximum"
> and "Zoom
> Preset":http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar
>
> Folk that use them a lot and want fast action will normally resort to
> setting shortcuts
> for them anyway - so there is no real need.
>
> Peter.
>
>
>
> David agreed with my point and
> until now, no-one disagreed. There is also the question of making
> a good, non-repetitive wording if the pixel zoom commands were
> in zoom.
>
> And please, no two-submenu depth items in an already short menu.
> That would be even worse - as David said that is against Microsoft
> guidelines.
>
> There is always a downside to the apparent neatness/orderliness
> of short menus when you actually want to use the menu commands.
> I would expect we could be fine tuning the menus again when more
> users get to see them and use them.
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> On 13 April 2017 at 18:45, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Can I ask just why is Davi's new set of zoom to fractions of seconds
> in the top level of the View Menu as "Zoom One Pixel to" with its
> four sub-commands - rather living in View > Zoom as four new
> subcommands there?
>
> Or even View > Zoom >One Pixel to > ...
>
> James worked hard to shorten the menus and now already we appear
> to be unnecessarily lengthening them again.
>
> Peter.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------
>
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing
> [hidden email]://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-quality mailing
> [hidden email]://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
>
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> Audacity-quality mailing
> [hidden email]://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
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>
>
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Re: Zoom menu

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by James Crook
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:39 PM, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 4/18/2017 4:43 PM, David Bailes wrote:
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:44 AM, James Crook [hidden email] wrote:

As I have said before, Gale would like everything at the top level.
David would like everything relevant to David at the top level.

DA will remove these new zoom commands.  They are not needed in a menu.
DA may, if I get round to it, add back 'Zoom Toggle'.  Zoom Toggle (which
has an icon for it in the ImageCache) switches back and forth between your
two most used zoom levels.   This would live under zoom.

I am going to remove save and restore cursor position menu items in DA.
They are not useful enough.
I am going to remove the 'move selection' option in Align in DA.  Instead
in DA I will just do what I think right with the selection, possibly
clearing the selection where there is no obvious best choice.


I might float the idea of a keystroke combination to bring up a 4Blind
pop-up menu.  We can then put all the new menu-junk there.

"all the new menu-junk"
I found your use of this phrase unhelpful and very discouraging,
David.

Apologies for the tone.  I was not in a good mood at the time.

thank you. I'll reply to the rest of your message in the near future,
David.
 
  For users with excellent vision who use the mouse a lot more, many of the commands you have added 'get in the way'.  Particularly new users may be overwhelmed when exploring the menus to see what kinds of things Audacity can do.  I can totally see the additional menu items can be good - even essential - for effective use by VI users.  I feel we need to find a solution that works well for people with normal vision as well as for VI users.  Currently we are not there.


  But I probably won't float that suggestion until DA 2.2.0x is released.

      

      
--James.





On 4/14/2017 9:08 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Gale Andrews [hidden email] [hidden email] wrote:


I think the first order placement is necessary for a repetitive action
that you want to be fast, rather than having to move both right and
then down a list of eight items.

In which case one would also argue for the four pe-existing zoom commands:
In, Normal, Out, Selection
To be at first order placement.

I would argue that those pre-existing four are far more important that
these four
new pixel-to-fraction-second - the effect of those is certainly simpler to
comprehend.
And I'm betting that once the new commands are released most users will use
the
pre-existing set a lot more than the new set.

So I continue therefore to strongly argue for the removal of the second
level menu
"View>Zoom One Pixel to" - and four the four new commands to be placedin
the
"View>Zoom" submenu.

And I would still prefer to see them in a separate  sub-menu "View>Zoom>One
Pixel to"
in order to avoid over-lengthening the View>Zoom menu.  Especially bearing
in mind
that we may well want to add more commands to that menu if we end up
implementing
the extra zoom buttons called for in the Zoom Toolbar proposal for "Zoom
Maximum"
and "Zoom Preset":http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar

Folk that use them a lot and want fast action will normally resort to
setting shortcuts
for them anyway - so there is no real need.

Peter.



David agreed with my point and
until now, no-one disagreed. There is also the question of making
a good, non-repetitive wording if the pixel zoom commands were
in zoom.

And please, no two-submenu depth items in an already short menu.
That would be even worse - as David said that is against Microsoft
guidelines.

There is always a downside to the apparent neatness/orderliness
of short menus when you actually want to use the menu commands.
I would expect we could be fine tuning the menus again when more
users get to see them and use them.


Gale


On 13 April 2017 at 18:45, Peter Sampson [hidden email] [hidden email]
wrote:

Can I ask just why is Davi's new set of zoom to fractions of seconds
in the top level of the View Menu as "Zoom One Pixel to" with its
four sub-commands - rather living in View > Zoom as four new
subcommands there?

Or even View > Zoom >One Pixel to > ...

James worked hard to shorten the menus and now already we appear
to be unnecessarily lengthening them again.

Peter.

------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Zoom menu

David Bailes-3
In reply to this post by Robert Hänggi
Hi Robert,
thanks for your feedback, and the feedback from others. I'm thinking about the feedback, and will hope to give a more detailed reply in the near future.
My current thinking is that although your suggestion has some obvious advantages (and my current implementation has some obvious disadvantages), I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to get an implementation of Robert's idea that is easily discoverable, doesn't involve too many keystrokes for changing the step size, and doesn't add too much additional complexity to the interface/preferences.
In other words, at the moment, I'm not sure what the best approach is.

David.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just to recapitulate why those strange zoom levels:

The step size for navigating with the arrow keys is correlated to the
zoom level.
The latter can be doubled or halved (zoom out/in) and this gives very
odd time intervals because we are exactly following a binary pattern
of 2^x samples; x being the level.
1 2 4 8 16 32 ... 256 512 samples (= zoom normal = level 9) 1024 and so on.
However, this is only for a project rate of 44100 Hz true. Change this
setting and you have different step sizes, (in samples)regardless of
the rate of the track(s).
The step size as fractals of a second is approximately the same but
very odd as mentioned.
I don't know if a project rate change has also an impact on how "fast"
you can zoom--test it.
The DPI issue just complicates things further.

David's intention is to give even step sizes in order to shift clips
or move the cursor in a more natural way.

However, I don't think that we have reached the final solution yet.
Here is what I would do:

1. Creating a numeric input for the Step Size in seconds. The best
would be a editable combo box, exactly like the one for the project
rate. The field shows the current value and arrowing down lists
predefined values, namely the four that are now in the 'Zoom One Pixel
to' menu.
It would probably be best to have this in a dialog.

2. I would decouple zoom factor and step size, at least present a
preference option to do so. How often do I accidentally "destroy" the
carefully set step size by involuntary zooming.

3. replace the four pixel entries with something that is meaningful
and useful to sighted users.

Robert

2017-04-14 19:04 GMT+02:00, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>:
> I'v ejust bee testing these zoom levels on my workhorse Tosh Satellite
> laptop
> which has a 1366x768 display.
>
> With the Audacity window full screen
> I pixel to:
> 1second => 20 minutes on screen
> 1/10 second => 2 minutes
> 1/100 second => 12 seconds
> millisecond = 1.2 seconds
>
> With the Audacity window default size
> I pixel to:
> 1second => 12:45 on screen
> 1/10 second => 1:15 minutes
> 1/100 second => 7.5 seconds
> millisecond = 0.75 seconds
>
> Personally I don't find any of these zoom levels particuarly useful and I
> can't see myself
> ever using them.  I tend to record with 3-6 minutes on-screen (a
> songsworth) and I
> edit at normal-zoomed-out-once(or twice) for location  (which give me 14,
> 28 and 56
> on-screen seconds) - and zoom in close for detailed edits.
>
> I also agree with Steve when he says:
>>It seems quite strange to me to have zoom levels that are dependent on the
> display dpi.
>
> So we have zoom levels here that depend on the screen - most odd.
>
> Peter.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:25 PM, Steve the Fiddle
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 14 April 2017 at 14:47, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Steve the Fiddle <
>> [hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> How about:
>> >>
>> >> View menu:
>> >> * Zoom
>> >> ** Zoom In
>> >> ** Zoom Normal
>> >> ** Zoom Out
>> >> ** Zoom to Selection
>> >> ** spacer
>> >> ** 1px to 1 second
>> >> ** 1px to 10th second
>> >> ** 1px to 100th second
>> >> ** 1px to 1 millisecond
>> >
>> >
>> > That was more or less my original suggestion - but with the addition of
>> the
>> > spacer.
>> >
>> > But I find these new commands pretty obscure and opaque as to their
>> > behaviour and
>> > the zoom level that will ensue.  Normally one would would think of
>> > proportional scaling,
>> > like a map's scale say.
>> >
>> > The four pre-existing zoom commands, the ones that correspond to the
>> > zoom
>> > buttons,
>> > are in contrast, pretty clear to the user in what the result will be
>> after
>> > using them - not
>> > really so with these new commands.
>> >
>> > I ran these past my "mystery shopper" and asked her if she had any idea
>> what
>> > zoom
>> > level she might get when using these commands - she said:
>> > "No idea at all. Who thinks in pixels?"
>>
>> Having recently changed from a 'normal' resolution laptop display to a
>> fairly high dpi laptop display, I was surprised by how far 'zoomed
>> out' these new commands are. It seems quite strange to me to have zoom
>> levels that are dependent on the display dpi.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Peter
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 14 April 2017 at 11:52, James Crook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > We could add an optional momentary sound (high or low) on the toggle
>> so
>> >> > that VI users get confirmation of whether they are on the high or
>> >> > low
>> >> > zoom setting.
>> >> >
>> >> > --James.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 4/14/2017 11:44 AM, James Crook wrote:
>> >> >> As I have said before, Gale would like everything at the top level.
>> >> >> David would like everything relevant to David at the top level.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> DA will remove these new zoom commands.  They are not needed in a
>> menu.
>> >> >> DA may, if I get round to it, add back 'Zoom Toggle'.  Zoom Toggle
>> >> >> (which has an icon for it in the ImageCache) switches back and
>> >> >> forth
>> >> >> between your two most used zoom levels.   This would live under
>> >> >> zoom.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am going to remove save and restore cursor position menu items in
>> >> >> DA.  They are not useful enough.
>> >> >> I am going to remove the 'move selection' option in Align in DA.
>> >> >> Instead in DA I will just do what I think right with the selection,
>> >> >> possibly clearing the selection where there is no obvious best
>> choice.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I might float the idea of a keystroke combination to bring up a
>> 4Blind
>> >> >> pop-up menu.  We can then put all the new menu-junk there. But I
>> >> >> probably won't float that suggestion until DA 2.2.0x is released.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --James.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 4/14/2017 9:08 AM, Peter Sampson wrote:
>> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Gale Andrews <
>> [hidden email]>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> I think the first order placement is necessary for a repetitive
>> >> >>>> action
>> >> >>>> that you want to be fast, rather than having to move both right
>> >> >>>> and
>> >> >>>> then down a list of eight items.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> In which case one would also argue for the four pe-existing zoom
>> >> >>> commands:
>> >> >>> In, Normal, Out, Selection
>> >> >>> To be at first order placement.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I would argue that those pre-existing four are far more important
>> that
>> >> >>> these four
>> >> >>> new pixel-to-fraction-second - the effect of those is certainly
>> >> >>> simpler to
>> >> >>> comprehend.
>> >> >>> And I'm betting that once the new commands are released most users
>> >> >>> will use
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> pre-existing set a lot more than the new set.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> So I continue therefore to strongly argue for the removal of the
>> >> >>> second
>> >> >>> level menu
>> >> >>> "View>Zoom One Pixel to" - and four the four new commands to be
>> >> >>> placedin
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> "View>Zoom" submenu.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And I would still prefer to see them in a separate  sub-menu
>> >> >>> "View>Zoom>One
>> >> >>> Pixel to"
>> >> >>> in order to avoid over-lengthening the View>Zoom menu. Especially
>> >> >>> bearing
>> >> >>> in mind
>> >> >>> that we may well want to add more commands to that menu if we end
>> >> >>> up
>> >> >>> implementing
>> >> >>> the extra zoom buttons called for in the Zoom Toolbar proposal for
>> >> >>> "Zoom
>> >> >>> Maximum"
>> >> >>> and "Zoom Preset":
>> >> >>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Folk that use them a lot and want fast action will normally resort
>> to
>> >> >>> setting shortcuts
>> >> >>> for them anyway - so there is no real need.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Peter.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> David agreed with my point and
>> >> >>>> until now, no-one disagreed. There is also the question of making
>> >> >>>> a good, non-repetitive wording if the pixel zoom commands were
>> >> >>>> in zoom.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> And please, no two-submenu depth items in an already short menu.
>> >> >>>> That would be even worse - as David said that is against
>> >> >>>> Microsoft
>> >> >>>> guidelines.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> There is always a downside to the apparent neatness/orderliness
>> >> >>>> of short menus when you actually want to use the menu commands.
>> >> >>>> I would expect we could be fine tuning the menus again when more
>> >> >>>> users get to see them and use them.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Gale
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On 13 April 2017 at 18:45, Peter Sampson
>> >> >>>> <[hidden email]>
>> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>> Can I ask just why is Davi's new set of zoom to fractions of
>> seconds
>> >> >>>>> in the top level of the View Menu as "Zoom One Pixel to" with
>> >> >>>>> its
>> >> >>>>> four sub-commands - rather living in View > Zoom as four new
>> >> >>>>> subcommands there?
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Or even View > Zoom >One Pixel to > ...
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> James worked hard to shorten the menus and now already we appear
>> >> >>>>> to be unnecessarily lengthening them again.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Peter.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>>> ------------------
>> >> >>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>> Audacity-quality mailing list
>> >> >>>>> [hidden email]
>> >> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>>> ------------------
>> >> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
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>> >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
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>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
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>> _______________________________________________
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