input volume controls on Vista

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input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
Hi,

Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
for a microphone:
1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
can open from the Sound dialog.
2. the input slider on Audacity's main window

The level meter in audacity depends on 1 but not 2.
The recorded volume depends on 1 and 2.

Slightly confusing?
David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

Gale
Administrator

David Bailes-2 wrote
Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
for a microphone:
1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
can open from the Sound dialog.
2. the input slider on Audacity's main window

The level meter in audacity depends on 1 but not 2.
The recorded volume depends on 1 and 2.

Slightly confusing?
This is Sound: Recording tab, right-click over Mic > Properties,
then in "Mic Properties", click the Levels tab?

Off the cuff, once the mic device is selected as the Audacity
recording device, shouldn't the slider on the Levels tab move in
tandem with the Audacity input level slider, as it would on
XP with well-behaved drivers? Are you saying when the mic
input is active, that moving the Audacity input slider to right will
increase the recorded volume (as visible in the waveform,
and in the green VU meter when you play it back), but not be
reflected live in the red VU recording meter?

In a different scenario, if you were recording line-in from
a device that had its own output control, that is obviously
a separate control but I'm almost certain increasing the  
output level and/or the Audacity input level should both
be reflected in the recording meter.




Gale  
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Re: input volume controls on Vista

Leland (Audacity Team)
In reply to this post by David Bailes-2
David Bailes wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
> for a microphone:
> 1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
> can open from the Sound dialog.
> 2. the input slider on Audacity's main window
>
I just checked this on Vista and the problem is that the old mixer
interface no longer works on Vista.  From some quick reading, it's
"supposed" to work, but I'll have to dig a bit more.

In the current case, the volume sliders cause an "artificial" gain to be
applied to the audio.

This should probably be added to the checklist...

Leland

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
In reply to this post by Gale
Hi Gale,

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 2:30 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>Are you saying when the mic
> input is active, that moving the Audacity input slider to right will
> increase the recorded volume (as visible in the waveform,
> and in the green VU meter when you play it back), but not be
> reflected live in the red VU recording meter?

Yes,
David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by Leland (Audacity Team)

Leland (Audacity Team) wrote
David Bailes wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
> for a microphone:
> 1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
> can open from the Sound dialog.
> 2. the input slider on Audacity's main window
>
I just checked this on Vista and the problem is that the old mixer
interface no longer works on Vista.  From some quick reading, it's
"supposed" to work, but I'll have to dig a bit more.

In the current case, the volume sliders cause an "artificial" gain to be
applied to the audio.

This should probably be added to the checklist...

Leland
So by sliders (plural) you mean this problem is with the Audacity output
slider as well? And the recommendation until fixed is that only the
system mixer playback and recording levels are to be trusted?

Are the Audacity and system sliders actually moving in tandem, or
independently, so you don't really know what level you're at with the
Audacity slider?

Can we get away with a P3 since no one as far as I know actually
noticed it before? Well spotted, David...  


Gale

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
Hi Gale,

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are the Audacity and system sliders actually moving in tandem, or
> independently, so you don't really know what level you're at with the
> Audacity slider?

The audacity input and system level sliders are independent, so the
recorded level is dependent on both, and not the same as the input
level meter unless the audacity input slider is 100%.

David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
In reply to this post by Gale
Hi Gale,

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are the Audacity and system sliders actually moving in tandem, or
> independently, so you don't really know what level you're at with the
> Audacity slider?

The audacity input and system level sliders are independent, so the
recorded level is dependent on both, and not the same as the input
level meter unless the audacity input slider is 100%.

David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
In reply to this post by Leland (Audacity Team)
Hi Leland,

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Leland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
> I just checked this on Vista and the problem is that the old mixer
> interface no longer works on Vista.  From some quick reading, it's
> "supposed" to work, but I'll have to dig a bit more.
>

Just to let you know that the same problem happens on Windows XP if
you use a usb microphone: the audacity input slider affects the
recorded level, but not the input level meter.

David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

Leland (Audacity Team)
In reply to this post by Gale
Gale (Audacity Team) wrote:

>
>
> Leland (Audacity Team) wrote:
>> David Bailes wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
>>> for a microphone:
>>> 1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
>>> can open from the Sound dialog.
>>> 2. the input slider on Audacity's main window
>>>
>> I just checked this on Vista and the problem is that the old mixer
>> interface no longer works on Vista.  From some quick reading, it's
>> "supposed" to work, but I'll have to dig a bit more.
>>
>> In the current case, the volume sliders cause an "artificial" gain to be
>> applied to the audio.
>>
>> This should probably be added to the checklist...
>>
>> Leland
>
> So by sliders (plural) you mean this problem is with the Audacity output
> slider as well? And the recommendation until fixed is that only the
> system mixer playback and recording levels are to be trusted?

Yep, neither one of them work and yes, use the system mixer.

>
> Are the Audacity and system sliders actually moving in tandem, or
> independently, so you don't really know what level you're at with the
> Audacity slider?
>
No, they do not move in tandem.

> Can we get away with a P3 since no one as far as I know actually
> noticed it before? Well spotted, David...  
>
Fine by me.

Leland


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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
In reply to this post by Gale
Hi Gale,

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Can we get away with a P3 since no one as far as I know actually
> noticed it before? Well spotted, David...

The fact that it hasn't been noticed before may mean that alot of
people are getting recorded levels of audio that don't correspond to
the audacity input level meter if they have audacity input slider set
to less than 100%. And as noted in another post, it also happens for
usb mics in windows xp.

David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

Gale
Administrator
In reply to this post by David Bailes-2

David Bailes-2 wrote
Hi Leland,

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Leland <leland@audacityteam.org> wrote:
>>
> I just checked this on Vista and the problem is that the old mixer
> interface no longer works on Vista.  From some quick reading, it's
> "supposed" to work, but I'll have to dig a bit more.
>

Just to let you know that the same problem happens on Windows XP if
you use a usb microphone: the audacity input slider affects the
recorded level, but not the input level meter.
David.

Yes, I've occasionally seen that on my current Ion USB turntable (once
every 40 sessions or so), on XP. Most of the time the Audacity input
slider affects the recorded level and the input meter (there is no
system level control).

In five years using USB external sound cards, I've mostly seen
only perfect slider behaviour (Audacity and system sliders move in
tandem, and the input meter is affected as well as the recorded level).

[That excludes the 1.3.4/5 era where the Mixer Toolbar or its input
dropdown were reluctant to appear with my USB sound cards, and the
clipping hold lights in the VU meters rarely came on even when there
was clipping.]


Gale
     

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
Hi Gale,

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes, I've occasionally seen that on my current Ion USB turntable (once
> every 40 sessions or so), on XP. Most of the time the Audacity input
> slider affects the recorded level and the input meter (there is no
> system level control).

> In five years using USB external sound cards, I've mostly seen
> only perfect slider behaviour (Audacity and system sliders move in
> tandem, and the input meter is affected as well as the recorded level).

thanks for the info. My only experience is with a logitech usb desktop
microphone, where the sliders aren't in tandem.

David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
In reply to this post by Gale
Hi Gale,

it doesn't look like this has made it to the checklist yet, could you
add it (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to)

thanks,
David.


On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> Leland (Audacity Team) wrote:
>>
>> David Bailes wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
>>> for a microphone:
>>> 1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
>>> can open from the Sound dialog.
>>> 2. the input slider on Audacity's main window
>>>
>> I just checked this on Vista and the problem is that the old mixer
>> interface no longer works on Vista.  From some quick reading, it's
>> "supposed" to work, but I'll have to dig a bit more.
>>
>> In the current case, the volume sliders cause an "artificial" gain to be
>> applied to the audio.
>>
>> This should probably be added to the checklist...
>>
>> Leland
>
> So by sliders (plural) you mean this problem is with the Audacity output
> slider as well? And the recommendation until fixed is that only the
> system mixer playback and recording levels are to be trusted?
>
> Are the Audacity and system sliders actually moving in tandem, or
> independently, so you don't really know what level you're at with the
> Audacity slider?
>
> Can we get away with a P3 since no one as far as I know actually
> noticed it before? Well spotted, David...
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/input-volume-controls-on-Vista-tp2372681p2376883.html
> Sent from the audacity-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: input volume controls on Vista

Gale
Administrator

David Bailes wrote:
> Hi Gale,
>
> it doesn't look like this has made it to the checklist yet, could you
> add it (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to)

Hi David,

Yes anyone who actively contributes to devel list can (as far as I'm
concerned) add a bug to Release Checklist if it's been discussed here
and a rating suggested. Thanks for dropping it in there. I've
summarised it in a way more suitable for release noting, but please
check.


Thanks


Gale












On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<gale@audacityteam.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Leland (Audacity Team) wrote:
>>
>> David Bailes wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
>>> for a microphone:
>>> 1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
>>> can open from the Sound dialog.
>>> 2. the input slider on Audacity's main window
>>>
>> I just checked this on Vista and the problem is that the old mixer
>> interface no longer works on Vista.  From some quick reading, it's
>> "supposed" to work, but I'll have to dig a bit more.
>>
>> In the current case, the volume sliders cause an "artificial" gain to be
>> applied to the audio.
>>
>> This should probably be added to the checklist...
>>
>> Leland
>
> So by sliders (plural) you mean this problem is with the Audacity output
> slider as well? And the recommendation until fixed is that only the
> system mixer playback and recording levels are to be trusted?
>
> Are the Audacity and system sliders actually moving in tandem, or
> independently, so you don't really know what level you're at with the
> Audacity slider?
>
> Can we get away with a P3 since no one as far as I know actually
> noticed it before? Well spotted, David...
>
>
> Gale
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/input-volume-controls-on-Vista-tp2372681p2376883.html
> Sent from the audacity-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
Hi Gale,

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Gale (Audacity Team)
<[hidden email]> wrote:
,
>
> Yes anyone who actively contributes to devel list can (as far as I'm
> concerned) add a bug to Release Checklist if it's been discussed here
> and a rating suggested. Thanks for dropping it in there. I've
> summarised it in a way more suitable for release noting, but please
> check.

I've just added that the problem also occurs on windows xp for the
logitech usb desktop microphone,

David.

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Re: input volume controls on Vista

Jan Kolar-4
In reply to this post by David Bailes-2
David Bailes napsal(a):
Hi,

Using audacity 1.3.7 on Vista, there are two relevant volume sliders
for a microphone:
1. the slider on the levels page of the devices properties, which you
can open from the Sound dialog.
2. the input slider on Audacity's main window

The level meter in audacity depends on 1 but not 2.
The recorded volume depends on 1 and 2.

Slightly confusing?
  
Yes. But... 


Putting aside the main problem that 1 and 2 move independently on Vista,
I think, it would be *worse*, and not better, if level meter would follow 2 (together with 1).

This is the case when Help>Audio Device Info says "Capture volume is emulated", is not it?
That means, recorded signal is multiplied by number <1 inside Audacity.

Then the level meter should give information about CLIPPING in the sound device, and in this case it is better that level meters do not depend on 2 since 2 cannot avoid clipping.
(Therefore the second sentence on wiki Release_Checklist is not a bug to be fixed, only a symptom of the problem from the first sentence:
        P3  (Windows Vista only) System mixer level sliders and
       Audacity level sliders act independently.
       As a result, achieved recorded level only matches level
       indicated on the Recording VU meter if the Audacity input slider is at 100%.
)

-------------------
BTW, I suggested a while ago on the Forum:
In the mixer toolbar,
the recording mixer should perhaps appear different when input mixer is emulated.
Perhaps instead of black, a gray color would be used for drawing the picture.
(And/or a balloon help (for a second or two) "Beware: emulated mixer. Emulated mixer cannot avoid clipping during capture" could be useful when its value would be set lower than 1,0.)

---------
David,
thanks for the hint, I should indeed better look at meters.

Jan


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Re: input volume controls on Vista

David Bailes-2
Hi,

On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Jan Kolar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Putting aside the main problem that 1 and 2 move independently on Vista,
I think, it would be *worse*, and not better, if level meter would follow 2 (together with 1).
 
Agreed.
 


This is the case when Help>Audio Device Info says "Capture volume is emulated", is not it?
That means, recorded signal is multiplied by number <1 inside Audacity.

Then the level meter should give information about CLIPPING in the sound device, and in this case it is better that level meters do not depend on 2 since 2 cannot avoid clipping.
(Therefore the second sentence on wiki Release_Checklist is not a bug to be fixed, only a symptom of the problem from the first sentence:
        P3  (Windows Vista only) System mixer level sliders and
       Audacity level sliders act independently.
       As a result, achieved recorded level only matches level
       indicated on the Recording VU meter if the Audacity input slider is at 100%.
)
 
I think that's the intended meaning.
 
I have zero knowledge about emulated mixers, so have no comments about them.

David.

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