"Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

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"Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Stevethefiddle
If I'm understanding correctly, we have the suggestion from Robert to
add a new top level menu for "selection" commands. (I am splitting
this into a new topic for clarity.)

In every editing application that I can think of, "selection" commands
are in the "Edit" menu. This is such a common standard in computer
software that I am -1 for not following this well established rule.

Steve

On 25 March 2017 at 08:25, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2017-03-24 14:08 GMT+01:00, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On Mar 24, 2017, at 4:53 AM, Steve the Fiddle <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 24 March 2017 at 09:22, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort. And there
>>>>> well
>>>>> be some complaints about "extra navigation".
>>>>>
>>>>> The Zoom commands look to be the worst offender for an arguably
>>>>> un-necessary cascade.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the zoom commands in the menu aslso have buttons in the Edit
>>>> Toolbar
>>>> (apart from the zoom normal that is)..
>>>>
>>>> And all have pre-assigned documented shortcuts (apart from zoom to fit
>>>> that
>>>> is).
>>>>
>>>> Plus there is the zoom tool and zooming via the mouse scoll wheel.
>>>>
>>>> So it seems to me that cascading the zoom menu should not inconvenience
>>>> too
>>>> many people as I'm pretty sure most of them use the bottons or the
>>>> shortcuts.
>>>> I know that I for one have never used zoom from the menu (except in
>>>> documenting
>>>> od QA testing) as it's much easier to use the other tools.
>>>>
>>>> And those that do choose to use it should soon see the shortcuts abd
>>>> realize
>>>> just
>>>> jow valuable they are to aid faster working.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Also on a closely related topic, Inote that the Edit Toolbar lacks a
>>>> button
>>>> for "Zoom
>>>> Normal" which is a function which I'm sure many of us use a lot. I
>>>> certainly
>>>> do, using
>>>> the Ctrl+2 chortcut (which I learned very early on).  This is one of the
>>>> reasons that
>>>> a while back I wrote the Proposal for splitting off the Zoom functions
>>>> into
>>>> their own
>>>> toolbar and adding additional zoom functionality to such a Zoom Toolbar.
>>>> See:
>>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_new_Zoom_Toolbar
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ... cascades are a liability with Track Pads of any sort
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, many things on most applications are a liability with a trackpad
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> I hate the darn things, only using them when absolutely necessary when
>>>> no
>>>> mouse
>>>> is available.
>>>
>>> It beats me how anyone can use Audacity effectively with a trackpad.
>>
>> Steve & Peter,
>>
>> The trackpad has its challenges such as moving exactly horizontally, but
>> even though I had used a mouse for years, when I got my MacBook Pro laptop I
>> decided to really learn the trackpad and with appropriate tracking speed and
>> acceleration settings and practice I much prefer it now over the mouse.
>> Somewhat akin to throwing a baseball or throwing a beach ball. The mouse now
>> seems awkward and limiting. It helps that the Mac has used trackpads for a
>> long time and developed it to the point that it has become quite useful for
>> most things. Anyway it can be done and IMO works better generally. The mouse
>> has it's place and I realize most people use one exclusively and as well
>> most have never used the trackpad enough to be at home with it.
>>
>> I really appreciate the work Paul put into make more of the gestures useable
>> in 2.1.3. It's so nice to be able to do with a flick of a finger(s) what I
>> would have to reach over a grab a mouse to do then move back to the
>> keyboard. Much quicker and easier for most things.
>>
>>>
>>> I also find Magic Mouse to be horrible for editing because the tracks
>>> keep sliding around while I'm trying to make a selection.
>>
>> Never tried one, but from what I've picked up I'm pretty sure I wouldn't
>> like one either.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 23 March 2017 at 20:43, Cliff Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Peter Sampson
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cliff wrote:
>>>>>>>> I prefer the long menus for the reason is
>>>>>>>> that they are much faster to find what you want
>>>>>>>> and less clicks to get something done
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cliff, even with the cascaded submenus there should only be a
>>>>>>> single-click to
>>>>>>> activate any effect you want.  Hover the nmouse over the "Effects"  -
>>>>>>> then hover
>>>>>>> over "Audacity" or "Nyquist" then click on the required effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course you can click on "Effects", then click on "Audacity" or
>>>>>>> "Nyquist" and
>>>>>>> then click on the required effect, three clicks - but as above only
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> click is
>>>>>>> really necessary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So with the cascaded menus it's mouse moves and then one click.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the full long menu it's still mouse moves and then a single
>>>>>>> click
>>>>>>> - but often
>>>>>>> it's also a vertical scroll - so I contend the single longer menu is
>>>>>>> often  actually
>>>>>>> harder work to get to the effect you want  ;-))
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cascaded menus are a help, but since I use a track pad and don't
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> move the cursor exactly horizontal sometimes it slips off the desired
>>>>>> group
>>>>>> and I have to go back and try again. I know, just bring the mouse down
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the right side at the arrow to solve the problem, but I naturally drop
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> to the name then over to get to the menu. Guess it is just my problem
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> have to retrain my thinking. :) FireFox does the same thing and it bugs
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>> Would be nice if the cascade had a 1 second or so pause before moving
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> another popout side menu so if the mouse tracking wasn't exactly
>>>>>> horizontal
>>>>>> I would still get the right menu. No one else has this problem I'm
>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hence my desire to see "Grouped by type" to be the new default.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Hi
>
> I've created the first worksheet (Excel file, please contact for other
> formats) with the changes I've proposed previously.
>
> The link with editing rights is:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9qimxjezh3i95v/AABKz3TgUUV4vexZeTHi0VEaa?dl=0
>
> Passive Download link:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/09jy7rw925sp2e5/menu_structure.xlsx?dl=0
>
> Some columns are hidden, e.g. the shortcuts.
> Feel free to correct any errors, wrong formats etc.
>
> To change an Index, enter it without the '-', e.g. 1080 will be
> displayed as 1-080.
> The thousands are the menu category number, the -XXX. is the level 1
> entry with a increment of 10 (in order to insert max 9 new items).
> The fractions are the entries in a sub menu.
>
> I hope that some other comments/notes will be added before Steve
> starts his cherry-picking.
>
> Best regards
> Robert
>

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Re: "Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Peter Sampson-2
Steve wrote:
> I'm understanding correctly, we have the suggestion from Robert to
>add a new top level menu for "selection" commands. (I am splitting
>this into a new topic for clarity.)
>
>In every editing application that I can think of, "selection" commands
>are in the "Edit" menu. This is such a common standard in computer
>software that I am -1 for not following this well established rule.

I think the idea came about because we already have so many Select
functions and we even add more.

Plus it would give greater visibilty to the importance of Select rather than
burying it low down in the Edit Menu.  If it stays in the EDit menu it really
should be moved to the top to indecate select before acting.

Word I note has a select in its edit men, but just the one "Select All".
Excell appears to have no Select command at all, certainly not in its edit menu
Paint has a top level button wity drop-down menu
iTunes is similar to Word with just a single "Select All" command in its edit menu
And Adobe Photoshop has a top-level SElect menu with a drop-down with many entries


So I'm for following the Photoshop model here - and I support the idea of a separate
Select menu for Audacity.

Peter

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Re: "Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Stevethefiddle
On 25 March 2017 at 09:27, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steve wrote:
>> I'm understanding correctly, we have the suggestion from Robert to
>>add a new top level menu for "selection" commands. (I am splitting
>>this into a new topic for clarity.)
>>
>>In every editing application that I can think of, "selection" commands
>>are in the "Edit" menu. This is such a common standard in computer
>>software that I am -1 for not following this well established rule.
>
> I think the idea came about because we already have so many Select
> functions and we even add more.
>
> Plus it would give greater visibilty to the importance of Select rather than
> burying it low down in the Edit Menu.  If it stays in the EDit menu it
> really
> should be moved to the top to indecate select before acting.
>
> Word I note has a select in its edit men, but just the one "Select All".
> Excell appears to have no Select command at all, certainly not in its edit
> menu
> Paint has a top level button wity drop-down menu
> iTunes is similar to Word with just a single "Select All" command in its
> edit menu
> And Adobe Photoshop has a top-level SElect menu with a drop-down with many
> entries
>
>
> So I'm for following the Photoshop model here - and I support the idea of a
> separate
> Select menu for Audacity.
>
> Peter

OK, so there are a few examples where an editor has a lot of selection
commands (Gimp is another example). We do need to be very choosy about
top level menus because the number is very limited, and we also have a
growing number of features that don't fit well into any of the
existing top level menus.

I retract my "-1"

Steve

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Re: "Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Peter Sampson-2
And if we do introduce a "Select" top level menu (and again I hope we do)
then I strongly believe it should sit to the left of the "Edit" entry in the menu
bar - so that by normal reading convention the selction comes before the
subsequent editing.

Peter

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Re: "Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Robert Hänggi
2017-03-25 11:45 GMT+01:00, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>:
> And if we do introduce a "Select" top level menu (and again I hope we do)
> then I strongly believe it should sit to the left of the "Edit" entry in
> the menu
> bar - so that by normal reading convention the selction comes before the
> subsequent editing.
>
> Peter
>

Currently (in the Excel Worksheet), I have put it just after Edit.
The File > Edit sequence is rather strong established.
In some programs that I've looked at, extracted menus from "Edit" were
always added to the right of it, followed by "View".
Compare e.g. Notepad++ where "Search" is extracted as its own top
level menu and placed as described.
There is no strictly logical location for it.
A selection can be used for editing, processing (Effects) or export,
and we can hardly insert the menu before "File".
However, I'm sure that some consensus can be found on that.

Robert

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Re: "Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Peter Sampson-2


On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Robert Hänggi <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-03-25 11:45 GMT+01:00, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]>:
> And if we do introduce a "Select" top level menu (and again I hope we do)
> then I strongly believe it should sit to the left of the "Edit" entry in
> the menu
> bar - so that by normal reading convention the selction comes before the
> subsequent editing.
>
> Peter
>

Currently (in the Excel Worksheet), I have put it just after Edit.
The File > Edit sequence is rather strong established.
In some programs that I've looked at, extracted menus from "Edit" were
always added to the right of it, followed by "View".
Compare e.g. Notepad++ where "Search" is extracted as its own top
level menu and placed as described.
There is no strictly logical location for it.

Fair enough - I note that Photoshop has File then Edit and then Select
comes fifth in the menu bar ordering ;-))

I withdraw my previous suggestion.

 
A selection can be used for editing, processing (Effects) or export,
and we can hardly insert the menu before "File".
However, I'm sure that some consensus can be found on that.

Robert

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Re: "Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Stevethefiddle
In reply to this post by Peter Sampson-2
On 25 March 2017 at 10:45, Peter Sampson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And if we do introduce a "Select" top level menu (and again I hope we do)
> then I strongly believe it should sit to the left of the "Edit" entry in the
> menu
> bar - so that by normal reading convention the selction comes before the
> subsequent editing.

but that is the opposite of other applications, including your
PhotoShop example.
Good interface design should have few surprises. Familiarity aids
usability. Convention evolves from experience. See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment

Steve

>
> Peter
>
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Re: "Select" menu [was: Menu Structure Changes]

Peter Sampson-2
Yes Steve - and I withdrew that suggestion ten minutes earlier ;-))

Peter

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